Yet another massive headache for the NCAA... (link)

[upstater]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

 

[Iluvsuebird]

Because they don’t make millions of dollars to their school.

 

[TheHorde]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

Isn’t there some line about knowing a society is headed downhill when the number of lawyers exceeds the number of engineers?

 

[Jaydumo20]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

Good point. Yeah, they don't make as much for the school as sports, not even close, but tickets to school performances cost money and the students get nothing. Also, to say that theatre and Orchestra groups are student led??? Ummmm...what? If my theatre friends in college were controlling the performances, they'd be doing 'Hair' instead of 'the cherry orchard' and the nude scene would NOT get cut.

 

[cordeodato]

Theater employees don't fill up the Big House

 

[DRBackup]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

Sure. Except Theater students can't and don't generate millions in revenue for anyone

 

[NJHusky]

Sure. Except Theater students can't and don't generate millions in revenue for anyone

Shouldn’t matter…what about every other athlete in non revenue sports. I must say, I’m really impressed the damage done to college athletics under Emmert’s tenure. Yet he retired a wealthy man.

 

[Chuck]

I think this will backfire on the majority of athletes in the long run. The mid/low majors are going to make sure that all their players are there "for fun" and not "work" (however that gets defined). Or they'll cut the sports or athletic departments altogether to be in compliance with Title IX. They can't afford to pay tens of thousands of dollars to each athlete, even if they can net the salary against scholarships.

I think you'll start to see more pressure from non-athlete students to drop sports. If I'm a commuter going to Fairleigh Dickinson, why do I want to pay any more in tuition so the school can have a crappy baseball team that nobody but the team and family care about?

 

[upstater]

Good point. Yeah, they don't make as much for the school as sports, not even close, but tickets to school performances cost money and the students get nothing. Also, to say that theatre and Orchestra groups are student led??? Ummmm...what? If my theatre friends in college were controlling the performances, they'd be doing 'Hair' instead of 'the cherry orchard' and the nude scene would NOT get cut.

But... this is all competitive athletes. It's not going to be only football and basketball kids get paid.

And, all these schools are now going to have to bump up their pay to TAs to. If TAs were paid an hourly rate, their take home pay would skyrocket.

 

[upstater]

I think this will backfire on the majority of athletes in the long run. The mid/low majors are going to make sure that all their players are there "for fun" and not "work" (however that gets defined). Or they'll cut the sports or athletic departments altogether to be in compliance with Title IX. They can't afford to pay tens of thousands of dollars to each athlete, even if they can net the salary against scholarships.

I think you'll start to see more pressure from non-athlete students to drop sports. If I'm a commuter going to Fairleigh Dickinson, why do I want to pay any more in tuition so the school can have a crappy baseball team that nobody but the team and family care about?

But Chuck your final paragraph is how the vast majority of D1 sports already operates. That $750-1k a year fee subsidizes the athletic department.

Congress could've solved all of this by forcing coaching/AD caps and allowing antitrust. I suspect that wouldn't hold.

The only sane solution at this point is to professionalize college sports.

 

[upstater]

Theater employees don't fill up the Big House

The vast majority of sports operate in the red. In fact, you could say that about top teams as well.

 

[upstater]

Because they don’t make millions of dollars to their school.

Schools lose a ton of money on sports. They aint making anything

 

[upstater]

Isn’t there some line about knowing a society is headed downhill when the number of lawyers exceeds the number of engineers?

If we go back to Renaissance Italy, it's financiers. That was the biggest innovative and technological revolution in human history. Within a hundred years, they were awash in financiers. People were peddling shares on the streets.

 

[superjohn]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

I've said the same thing before and posters freaked out.

Making them employees will be a disaster.

 

[CL82]

Isn’t there some line about knowing a society is headed downhill when the number of lawyers exceeds the number of engineers?

On the other hand there is a line that goes a town that's too small to support one attorney can always support two.

 

[caw]

Athletes are employees.

And if athletes are employees, why aren't theater students employees?

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

www.espn.com

If they are employees, should they get scholarships?

Also, theater is not exactly an NCAA thing.

 

[upstater]

If they are employees, should they get scholarships?

Also, theater is not exactly an NCAA thing.

The court is looking at anything run by university staff that requires students to spend long hours and which charges admission.

The scholarship question is excellent. Isn't that compensation?

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Isn’t there some line about knowing a society is headed downhill when the number of lawyers exceeds the number of engineers?

We don’t need more engineers, the world needs farmers…

 

[TheHorde]

We don’t need more engineers, the world needs farmers…

We need both but we definitely don’t need more lawyers.

 

[TedStriker]

How is this a headache for the ncaa? Are theater students athletes? Does the ncaa over see theatrical productions?

 

[upstater]

How is this a headache for the ncaa? Are theater students athletes? Does the ncaa over see theatrical productions?

The NCAA oversees amateur athletics. If athletes are workers, the NCAA can't legislate anything. This is all state law.

So, for instance, Texas just got rid of their overtime law where overtime workers receive overtime pay.

How can the NCAA step in and tell U. Texas what to do when it comes to its employees when Texas state law is entirely different than, say, New York state law.

In New York, students will receive more pay for longer hours. In Alabama, where 12 year olds can work in dangerous factories, anything goes. And the NCAA can't say anything about it

 

[BlueMAB]

The NCAA oversees amateur athletics. If athletes are workers, the NCAA can't legislate anything. This is all state law.

So, for instance, Texas just got rid of their overtime law where overtime workers receive overtime pay.

How can the NCAA step in and tell U. Texas what to do when it comes to its employees when Texas state law is entirely different than, say, New York state law.

In New York, students will receive more pay for longer hours. In Alabama, where 12 year olds can work in dangerous factories, anything goes. And the NCAA can't say anything about it

State employees. Not all employees.

Late on June 28, 2024, Judge Sean D. Jordan of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, temporarily blocked the United States Department of Labor (DOL) overtime exemption rule set to take effect July 1, 2024 – but only for government employees working for the state of Texas.

Theoretically this could impact TX State universities, but not private ones. Also, aren't athletes contract workers rather than hourly or salaried who would be paid overtime? Why are we worried about a pay gap between NY and TX instead of between TX and TX? All athletes aren't compensated the same anyway. This isn't comparable to a union where all employees at a certain step level are getting the same pay regardless of performance.

 

[temery]

How is this a headache for the ncaa? Are theater students athletes? Does the ncaa over see theatrical productions?

I think the argument is the ncaa shouldn't oversee any school/student relationship.

My guess is the courts are saying each individual should be able to decide his/her own worth to a school.

 

[upstater]

State employees. Not all employees.

Late on June 28, 2024, Judge Sean D. Jordan of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, temporarily blocked the United States Department of Labor (DOL) overtime exemption rule set to take effect July 1, 2024 – but only for government employees working for the state of Texas.

Theoretically this could impact TX State universities, but not private ones. Also, aren't athletes contract workers rather than hourly or salaried who would be paid overtime? Why are we worried about a pay gap between NY and TX instead of between TX and TX? All athletes aren't compensated the same anyway. This isn't comparable to a union where all employees at a certain step level are getting the same pay regardless of performance.

The point is that the NCAA doesn't make the rules anymore. As for public vs. private, it's all workers. The lawsuit was brought by a private company. So even though the judge temporarily blocked it for gov't workers, the ones seeking relief in the actual suit were a private company.

 

[Yorkeez4]

Shouldn’t matter…what about every other athlete in non revenue sports. I must say, I’m really impressed the damage done to college athletics under Emmert’s tenure. Yet he retired a wealthy man.

Pretty much Emmert’s MO - create a mess and leave before the s—- hits that fan. He’s made a career of it and successfully so.

 

[BlueMAB]

The point is that the NCAA doesn't make the rules anymore. As for public vs. private, it's all workers. The lawsuit was brought by a private company. So even though the judge temporarily blocked it for gov't workers, the ones seeking relief in the actual suit were a private company.

But they didn't get any relief because the judgement was only for state employees. So unless and until a ruling includes private employees/employers, it's quite simply not "all workers".

From the article: "The injunction temporarily halts the implementation of the DOL final rule for government employees of the state of Texas. All other employers should continue to implement the requirements of the final rule effective July 1, 2024."

And it's not "all state law". The lawsuit was brought because of a Federal Department of Labor case. The power struggle is between state law and federal agencies.

I believe a combination of collective bargaining and contracted athletes are the solutions, and this thread feels unnecessarily pollyannish.

 

[temery]

Good point. Yeah, they don't make as much for the school as sports, not even close, but tickets to school performances cost money and the students get nothing. Also, to say that theatre and Orchestra groups are student led??? Ummmm...what? If my theatre friends in college were controlling the performances, they'd be doing 'Hair' instead of 'the cherry orchard' and the nude scene would NOT get cut.

A scholarship isn't 'nothing.' If they want to be employees, they can pay tuition, room, food, fees, etc.

 

[upstater]

But they didn't get any relief because the judgement was only for state employees. So unless and until a ruling includes private employees/employers, it's quite simply not "all workers".

From the article: "The injunction temporarily halts the implementation of the DOL final rule for government employees of the state of Texas. All other employers should continue to implement the requirements of the final rule effective July 1, 2024."

And it's not "all state law". The lawsuit was brought because of a Federal Department of Labor case. The power struggle is between state law and federal agencies.

I believe a combination of collective bargaining and contracted athletes are the solutions, and this thread feels unnecessarily pollyannish.

You think that athletes being treated as employees is no big deal? It's a sea change from the current system.

 

[BlueMAB]

You think that athletes being treated as employees is no big deal? It's a sea change from the current system.

Pollyannish was obviously the wrong word.

I didn’t say it’s a not a big deal. I don’t see it as a massive headache. They’ve been treated like employees for decades.

 

[BlueMAB]

A scholarship isn't 'nothing.' If they want to be employees, they can pay tuition, room, food, fees, etc.

This is such antiquated thinking.

Employers pay for their employees’ tuition, room, food, licensing fees, etc all the time. Fringe benefits are common.

Making students pay for those things will just result in them simply negotiating for more money to offset the cost. Those things are already simply part of their compensation.

Dan Hurley gets 20 tickets/game, 5 parking passes, a country club membership, $15k annual allowance for a vehicle (can’t afford his own on his salary?), but the players should pay for their food and housing? They are required to remain academically eligible, so they have to go to class to play, but if you want to treat them like that, are you going to pay them for the hours they are in class since it is part of the job?