OT: Would Jordan have won 6 in a row today?

[huskyfan224]

Lebron is 3-6 in finals and has plenty of instances where a “GOAT” simply doesn’t do what he did. Switching off from KD with game clock winding down, settling against Barrea, getting outplayed by Jason Terry in a series, scoring 8 points in a finals game, etc..

Harden has averaged almost 40 ppg during stretches of seasons (at least mid 30s) throughout a few seasons. Jordan avg 37ppg while attempting 2 three pointers a game.

He would win 6 at least haha

 

[tzznandrew]

This tells me you know nothing about basketball. Pippen and Rodman are both hall of famers...

Pippen:
-Hall of famer
-One of the all-time great NBA SF
-3x NBA 1st team
-7x NBA all-star
-8x NBA all-defense 1st team

Rodman:
-Hall of Famer
-Arguably best NBA rebounder of all time, at least this era
-Rebounding champion 7 straight years
-2x NBA defensive POY
-2x NBA All-Star
-7x NBA all-defense 1st team

These guys would still crush it in the league today.
People complain about LeBron having a "big 3 helping get him his ring" but Jordan had a better supporting cast for all 6 title teams than LeBron ever had.

I don't think Rodman translates well. A 6'7" guy who'd essentially get tossed out all the time and would be a guy whose defender sag off of?

As good a rebounder and defender as Rodman was, he would really struggle. Everyone guarding him would essentially pack the paint. He was a net negative most years on offense, and he was guarding PFs who weren't as mobile. He was also far more physical than they allow now, and he'd absolutely get suspended way more. In a world where he's chasing mobile 4s or 5s, his rebounding comes down by necessity. And it'd be hard to play him at the 5, though you can imagine him as a Draymond-esque center. The difference there, though, is that Dray could at least keep the paint clear on the offensive end.

Pippen was obviously great. I'm less of a Pippen fan than many on the board, but I obviously think he is a great player.

 

[superjohn]

I'm glad to see people acknowledging all the things that broke right for MJ back then. It wasn't like he dragged a group of bums to the finals every year to play stacked rosters.

All the things that broke right for him?

Like breaking his foot? Like having his dad murdered and leaving the game for 2 seasons in the middle of one of the all-time dynasties when he was at the peak of his abilities? Like having his team broken up and retiring at 34 when he was still the best player in the league? Like having to go through a gauntlet in the East every season?

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm glad to see people acknowledging all the things that broke right for MJ back then. It wasn't like he dragged a group of bums to the finals every year to play stacked rosters.

I mean, once you get beyond Pippen, it's pretty grim, particularly on the offensive side. For all the talk that expansion diluted the league, it also diluted the Bulls.

 

[tzznandrew]

All the things that broke right for him?

Like breaking his foot? Like having his dad murdered and leaving the game for 2 seasons in the middle of one of the all-time dynasties when he was at the peak of his abilities? Like having his team broken up and retiring at 34 when he was still the best player in the league? Like having to go through a gauntlet in the East every season?

The West was already better and deeper than the East by 1992 or 1993, so that did benefit Jordan some. But, I mean, you want to talk about things breaking right, LeBron playing the bulk of his career in the East is definitely that. He scored a 2 seed in 2007 that would have been a 7 seed in the West. Being in the West would have at least helped his Finals record, though.

 

[Huskyforlife]

All the things that broke right for him?

Like breaking his foot? Like having his dad murdered and leaving the game for 2 seasons in the middle of one of the all-time dynasties when he was at the peak of his abilities? Like having his team broken up and retiring at 34 when he was still the best player in the league? Like having to go through a gauntlet in the East every season?

I didn't say everything went right. His father dying was obviously brutal, and he deserves all the respect for playing through that(and on fathers day sheesh).

Supposedly he left the game of his own volition, so he doesn't get a pass for that. We don't even know what would've happened if the team stayed together. The gauntlet stuff doesn't appeal to me either, the league was worse back then.

This is all to say he's definitely in the top 3 all time, but I would argue he had a lot working in his favor, compared to the other all time greats.

 

[TheChamps990411]

All excellent points - well thought out and supported with facts. When I think logically about it, there does not seem to be any way MJ could do it today. But then you watch the old games, listen to the stories, think about how Jordan is wired, and I think - I would not bet against him. He was, and is, just different. No matter what challenges were put in front of him, I believe he would have done what ever necessary to win. Think about how Bird and Magic respected him - the two of them were the kings of the league for almost a decade, and they both quickly seemed to realize, Jordan is now the king. I don't like getting into the Lebron vs. Jordan stories, athletes have evolved over the last 20 years - they are in better shape, take better care of their bodies, Lebron in particular has treated his body like a temple, yet I still believe that if MJ was in his prime today, he would have changed, done whatever necessary, to be the best. The dude is just wired different than anyone else.

Jordan if he played today would still be the best player in the league and it wouldnt be close. Sounds crazy i know but yeah he was that great. There is nothing on the court LeBron can do that MJ couldnt and do it better.

 

[TheChamps990411]

I finished the Last Dance last night. I think Jordan is still the greatest player that ever played, but there is now way he would have won 6 in 8 years in today's game. Jordan and the Bulls benefited from 4 major factors in the 90's.

1) Expansion - this is the biggest factor, by far. The NBA went from 23 teams in 1987 to 29 in 1995. The dilution in talent around the league was profound, and made it possible for a Championship team that could hold its core together and make smart supporting cast pickups to dominate. Imagine if Alonzo Mourning, Shaq, Glen Rice, Kendall Gill, Nick Anderson, Isaih Rider, Larry Johnson (in his prime), Steve Smith, Rony Seikaly, Horace Grant, Pooh Richardson, Damon Stoudamire, Marcus Camby, Walt Williams, Shareet Abdur-Rahim were all taken off expansion teams and consolidated onto the original 23 teams. Somewhere there would be a few teams that were really, really good.

It is not a coincidence that the Bulls' run starts when Charlotte started to get good and accelerated when Miami and Orlando get competitive. The expansion teams all sucked their first couple of seasons, but when they started to collect real talent, it was diluting the rest of the league, and making it easier for the Bulls to win.

2) Zone Defense - You can breakdown the NBA into pre-zone and post-zone basketball in a lot of ways. The illegal defense rules were ridiculous, and the Bulls were not the only team to benefit. The Jazz and Rockets did too. That said, if teams could help away from the ball in the 90's like they can now, Jordan would have been denied the rock a lot, and had to give up a lot more when he got it.

3) Pre-Euro - There were a handful of good foreign players at the beginning of the Bulls run (Olajuwon, Petrovic, Marcilonius, Divac, Shrempf, Smits), and even by the mid 90's there were maybe 10 that were capable of starting or contributing to a playoff team, and the Bulls had one of the best in Kukoc. Since then, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitski and Tim Duncan are first ballot HoFers, the Spurs won 5 titles with 3 foreign players as their stars, and the Lakers won 2 titles with Pau Gasol as their second best player. Today, the best player in the NBA is from Europe, and almost every NBA team has 2-3 foreign players that are at least decent.

Europe was not churning out top talent then like it is now, and some of the best didn't make it to the states in their primes. If Arvydas Sabonis played for Portland starting in 1988 like he was supposed to, (before his knees turned to concrete, he gained 50 pounds, and consumed a few thousand liters of vodka) Portland would have won multiple titles. Sabonis in his prime with Drexler, Porter, Cliff, and Kersey would have been unstoppable.

4) Moneyball - Teams would have played Jordan differently if there were advanced analytics in the 90's, and they certainly wouldn't have left defenders on an island against Jordan for 30 possessions a game like they did then.

Are you kidding? The Easternn conference was loaded when Jordan was coming up and finally broke through. LeBron has spent a big part of his career in a weak Eastern conference.

 

[upstater]

I didn't say Pippen sucked. I said he was a very good player, akin to top players in hockey at the time playing aside Gretzky. But do I think he's a Hall of Famer if not playing alongside Jordan? Of course not.

 

[upstater]

This tells me you know nothing about basketball. Pippen and Rodman are both hall of famers...

Pippen:
-Hall of famer
-One of the all-time great NBA SF
-3x NBA 1st team
-7x NBA all-star
-8x NBA all-defense 1st team

Rodman:
-Hall of Famer
-Arguably best NBA rebounder of all time, at least this era
-Rebounding champion 7 straight years
-2x NBA defensive POY
-2x NBA All-Star
-7x NBA all-defense 1st team

These guys would still crush it in the league today.
People complain about LeBron having a "big 3 helping get him his ring" but Jordan had a better supporting cast for all 6 title teams than LeBron ever had.

This post tells me you know less than nothing about basketball.

 

[tzznandrew]

I didn't say Pippen sucked. I said he was a very good player, akin to top players in hockey at the time playing aside Gretzky. But do I think he's a Hall of Famer if not playing alongside Jordan? Of course not.

He's absolutely a Hall of Famer without Jordan. His resume speaks for itself.

That said, he's gone from underrated to overrated.

 

[UofCT]

I don't see MJ or anyone else winning six in a row in today's NBA. Too much player movement. It's still crazy to me that GSW only has three chips.

Warriors have arguably the three least impressive rings I have ever seen.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Are you kidding? The Easternn conference was loaded when Jordan was coming up and finally broke through. LeBron has spent a big part of his career in a weak Eastern conference.

Was Expansion a myth? I could have sworn 6 teams joined the NBA between 1988 and 1995.

 

[superjohn]

Game 6- 1998 Bulls Jazz is on ESPN now.

 

[Scoe]

Game 6- 1998 Bulls Jazz is on ESPN now.

This is so fascinating to watch, I gotta say I'm very unimpressed with the rest of the Bulls, Pippen wasnt himself. The Jazz did have more help this game off the bench they had Eisley, Morris and Anderson spelling minutes.

 

[KembaStepback]

Yeah not arguing he wouldn’t be among the best athletes in the NBA today. Just saying that the difference in athleticism wouldn’t be as obvious as it was in the 80s and 90s. Instead of going up against SFs like Bird he’d be going up against SFs like Kevin Durant. No disrespect to Larry Bird, but Durant is a different level athletically.

Also no rim protecting Centers like there were then.

 

[Lefty2one]

Warriors have arguably the three least impressive rings I have ever seen.

Not arguing that, but they were by far the best team in the league for five straight seasons.

 

[Lefty2one]

MJ was much too quick for someone like KD, Kawhi, etc.

 

[JimHurley]

Also no rim protecting Centers like there were then.

Yeah, it’s tough to compare them being from different eras. I would agree that Jordan was more dominant in his era than LeBron is in his era. But I’d also say after watching The Last Dance, I think LeBron easily averages 30/10/10 in the 80s and 90s. His toughness, or lack thereof, would hurt him but his athleticism would set him apart.

 

[caw]

The hardest part for Jordan to win 6 isn’t the rule differences, or the changes in the style of play.

The hardest part would be the Salary Cap and the way players move around. I can’t imagine any of Pippen or Jordan stay on the Bulls with their relationship with management (esp. Pippen, who also wouldn’t have signed that absurd contract).

People may harp on the league being watered down then vs now, but that plays both ways. Jordan theoretically could have better teammates now 3-15 (he would have to team with Leonard, James or Giannis to have 2 be better than Pippen, IMO).

Jordan at the worst would be like a better, taller Westbrook. Better defender at the least.

It is interesting that the league has shifted to more threes and yet the three best players James 35%, Leonard 37% and Giannis 30% are not really lights out shooters. Not to mention none of them really came into the league as shooters but got better because the league shifted. I have to imagine Jordan would adjust some as well if he entered the NBA as a rookie now.

 

[tzznandrew]

Not arguing that, but they were by far the best team in the league for five straight seasons.

And if not for a Durant achilles injury they'd have 4 in 5. They might have done it even without him if Klay were healthy.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't think Rodman translates well. A 6'7" guy who'd essentially get tossed out all the time and would be a guy whose defender sag off of?

As good a rebounder and defender as Rodman was, he would really struggle. Everyone guarding him would essentially pack the paint. He was a net negative most years on offense, and he was guarding PFs who weren't as mobile. He was also far more physical than they allow now, and he'd absolutely get suspended way more. In a world where he's chasing mobile 4s or 5s, his rebounding comes down by necessity. And it'd be hard to play him at the 5, though you can imagine him as a Draymond-esque center. The difference there, though, is that Dray could at least keep the paint clear on the offensive end.

Pippen was obviously great. I'm less of a Pippen fan than many on the board, but I obviously think he is a great player.

Rodman would need the exact right spot now just like he did then. Remember Rodman 1.0 came off the bench for the Pistons and that was easily the best use and version of him as an all-around basketball player. He found a niche with the Bulls as his idiosyncrasies (I need attention & rebounds) perfectly fit the circus of a team with Jordan at such a high usage rate and MJ+Pippen accounting for so much of the scoring load. Today he could fit on a team with Westbrook and Harden (ala whathisface) or fulfill the defender role player rebounder off the bench for 20-25/night for a playoff team.
Rodman couldn't be the #3 guy for a team today, but he was only that in terms of attention on the Bulls. And there was plenty of talk back then about how can you play a guy that doesn't score and outright refuses to shoot (answer again only if he's playing with a prolific scorer).

 

[KembaStepback]

Yeah, it’s tough to compare them being from different eras. I would agree that Jordan was more dominant in his era than LeBron is in his era. But I’d also say after watching The Last Dance, I think LeBron easily averages 30/10/10 in the 80s and 90s. His toughness, or lack thereof, would hurt him but his athleticism would set him apart.

Lebron is great but he wouldn't score MORE than he does now. And his assists would go down as well. Slower game with fewer possessions. That's the whole point with Jordan. Going to this era he would have even more inflated #s

 

[TheChamps990411]

Was Expansion a myth? I could have sworn 6 teams joined the NBA between 1988 and 1995.

So what? 2 of those teams were in the west btw. Jordan in his time in the East during the playoffs had to face Milwaukee,Boston,Detroit,Indiana,Cleveland,New York and yes an expansion Orlando team that was absolutely loaded. Who exactly did LeBron have to go through? Youre expansion point is irrelevant because its nullified by a weak Eastern conference in the 2000s. Of the last 20 NBA champions 7 came out of the east and of those 7 team 3 were teams with LeBron. That means the West has won 13 of the last 17 NBA titles with 6 coming at the expense of lebron led teams.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

So what? 2 of those teams were in the west btw. Jordan in his time in the East during the playoffs had to face Milwaukee,Boston,Detroit,Indiana,Cleveland,New York and yes an expansion Orlando team that was absolutely loaded. Who exactly did LeBron have to go through? Youre expansion point is irrelevant because its nullified by a weak Eastern conference in the 2000s. Of the last 20 NBA champions 7 came out of the east and of those 7 team 3 were teams with LeBron. That means the West has won 13 of the last 17 NBA titles with 6 coming at the expense of lebron led teams.

Those teams, especially Charlotte, Miami and Orlando, sucked a lot of talent out of the existing teams. If there was no expansion, where would Shaq and Alonzo have ended up? What about all the other players I listed in the earlier posts.

The NBA took the same amount of talent, and split it over 29 teams instead of 23. For all those great players of that era, most of them did not have much of a supporting cast, because the depth and even some of the starters were playing on expansion teams.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

If Jordan won two in a row today, LeBron, Curry, Durant, Harden and Kyrie would have all signed with the same team to beat him.

 

[Hoophound]

The big thing missed in these MJ debates is his speed and strength. He was so explosive and quick for 6’6’ guy. At the same time he was very strong and his body control was amazing. I just don’t see it in anyone else at that high of a level.

Also, I think giving him a penalty for having Harper and Rodman is a little unfair. Both were getting older. Dennis was unreliable. Harper was way past prime. He was slow and always having pain from one thing or another. He was not the old Ron Harper and wouldn’t have been the best player, or even second best, on any team at that point.

 

[Spaceman213J]

There is something that has changed that is also overlooked. Today, it's normal for a star player to leave a city high and dry. Jordan is anything but stupid. He'd be in Boston or Houston and with his charisma, make top dollar in endorsements and still winnning rings left and right.
The ability to build the super teams with 3 stars through free agency just didn't happen back then. And as it was posted before, if the 3 point line was as much as a big deal, he would have worked on that earlier.

Until his athletic peak he was always getting better. He was always working to be better, and obsessively at that.

Today, these rules, no one could guard Jordan. Not that anyone could in his day either.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

The legalization of the zone, the evolution of the modern athlete, the luxury tax, and increased ability for players to join forces makes 6 straight nearly impossible.

Golden State looked unbeatable just two seasons ago. This season, they will be a lottery team.

So no.

 

[Scoe]

Crazy to think there was no interest in MJ going into the 98 offseason, sure the lockout had a lot to do with it. Today things would be a lot different could have seen MJ retiring and then pulling a Favre and after a month into retirement.

If he came back with a different team I could see NY, I could also Pat Riley trying to get him on the Heat (has his number retired by the Heat), the Heat were trying to get Sprewell btw. I could also see Dallas going after him. Im thinking big market, going to a contender or a young up and coming team. Wouldve been funny if he went to Utah, the Spurs couldve used him too but I dont see him wanting to play in those markets.