OT: Work From Home

[InTheRed]

Geez. I hate working from home. Lots of co-workers at first said they loved it. Then not only did they change their minds but when they lost power during the storm last month they lied about being without power a couple of extra days because our employer allowed an emergency exception to be in the office if you had no power. There is no way real relationships are built through a computer screen. When a project gets really crazy, you get better effort from people who consider each other "family". You don't get that working from home. Now maybe I work in a special group. Our average service exceeds 20 years for our senior people and 10 years for our more junior people. So we are very much about personal long term relationships. I will be back in the office next year when they let us.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Nah. Some folks will trade the space and comfort of a suburban home for a one bedroom or studio apartment. But that appeal used to come with a walk or short subway or bus ride to The office that they had to go to. So they were getting, 1-2+ hours of free time in the deal. Remove that commute from the equation, and make suburban or small city centers more appealing (Those closed restaurants will open somewhere, but not necessarily where they were) and the math changes. Not for everyone. Certainly not. But for some, definitely.

I expect a boom in entertainment districts in the suburbs. Like Patriot Place if you’ve been there. Or Universal City Walk. Towns with somewhat vibrant downtowns will be very popular and those downtowns will get more vibrant.

If you used to take metro north from West Haven to NYC and now you work from home. Wherever you ate lunch in the city lost your business or where you had a beer after work. West Haven just gained demand for that.

I have no doubt some will but by and large even a nice downtown area of a reasonable size suburb just does not offer near the culture, food options, shopping, etc of a city. Young people and high income people will still flock there by the time most of us will have returned to offices.

 

[Chin Diesel]

This raises the question about the need for bricks and mortar offices. In the end I think you still need places to interface with each other and people outside the company, but you don't need all the office space. I wonder if satellite offices are going spring up. There's definitely going to a change in the market. I'm not sure how it all works out.

My company was expanding our presence at a customer's facility during the pandemic. They're in the middle of adding about 80k sq ft to an existing 250k sq ft building. It was determined a small subset, which I was part of, had no need to physically work there. They gave us office space at a small satellite facility a few miles away. Looked like a 1970's 7-11 or bank. We had no requirement to go there but if we needed space that was our office.
Last week we received an email saying our new landlord was tearing up carpet, replacing ceiling tiles and upgrading internet bandwidth and associated electrical power stuff. I guess my home away from home isn't going away any time soon.

 

[XLCenterFan]

The responses to this thread are why I threw as much money as possible into Zoom stock.

 

[huskypantz]

Pre-covid I had the option of WFH up to two days per week, which I usually did not take advantage of. Once March hit I moved to WFH 3 days per week and office the other two. About half of my staff must go to the workplace close to 100%. The other half could probably be full remote, but collectively they've been in the office half of the time since March. I have not hired anyone but I've interviewed a few people for jobs in other states. Training could be a little challenging as is monitoring the productivity of staff.

One of the biggest benefits of the WFH shift is that when I head to the office, my commute time is much better. Even the heavy traffic days (with school starting again) aren't quite so bad.

The biggest issue with WFH for me has been our home environment. Two elementary school-aged kids being home with us is not conducive to me working. When they're back in school full time that will of course change. We don't have a true office for me or my wife - I have an alcove off the family room and wife is fine working in the kitchen or dining room. I like the neighborhood I live in and my proximity to Boston and I've previously balked at moving further from the city due to potential commutes for a job change and current commute. If the remote workplace changes stick I would consider moving another town or two out with a more WFH-friendly house.

And the consideration for those whose jobs were never WFH but can now be done remotely (coming from someone in IT who lives this) - be careful what you wish for. The salary you demand in HCOL areas will be a thorn in your side when there's a similar candidate in Kentucky who is looking for 20-30% less. And the 30% savings looks great to the c-suite but then hey is there a reason department X couldn't be completely offshored and drop those salary and bene's 70%? It's already a reality of the current climate but it could accelerate as a result of the shift.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Pre-covid I had the option of WFH up to two days per week, which I usually did not take advantage of. Once March hit I moved to WFH 3 days per week and office the other two. About half of my staff must go to the workplace close to 100%. The other half could probably be full remote, but collectively they've been in the office half of the time since March. I have not hired anyone but I've interviewed a few people for jobs in other states. Training could be a little challenging as is monitoring the productivity of staff.

One of the biggest benefits of the WFH shift is that when I head to the office, my commute time is much better. Even the heavy traffic days (with school starting again) aren't quite so bad.

The biggest issue with WFH for me has been our home environment. Two elementary school-aged kids being home with us is not conducive to me working. When they're back in school full time that will of course change. We don't have a true office for me or my wife - I have an alcove off the family room and wife is fine working in the kitchen or dining room. I like the neighborhood I live in and my proximity to Boston and I've previously balked at moving further from the city due to potential commutes for a job change and current commute. If the remote workplace changes stick I would consider moving another town or two out with a more WFH-friendly house.

And the consideration for those whose jobs were never WFH but can now be done remotely (coming from someone in IT who lives this) - be careful what you wish for. The salary you demand in HCOL areas will be a thorn in your side when there's a similar candidate in Kentucky who is looking for 20-30% less. And the 30% savings looks great to the c-suite but then hey is there a reason department X couldn't be completely offshored and drop those salary and bene's 70%? It's already a reality of the current climate but it could accelerate as a result of the shift.

Good points on hiring labor from lower COL areas. The benefit is you open up your potential employee pool to workers who have the skills but didn't want to move to those areas.

Ditto on the commute being much easier.

 

[Brochacho]

They’ve been trying to get us back in the office in full capacity since June and employee s keep pushing back. Next week is that time of the month where they try again

 

[HuskyHawk]

Pre-covid I had the option of WFH up to two days per week, which I usually did not take advantage of. Once March hit I moved to WFH 3 days per week and office the other two. About half of my staff must go to the workplace close to 100%. The other half could probably be full remote, but collectively they've been in the office half of the time since March. I have not hired anyone but I've interviewed a few people for jobs in other states. Training could be a little challenging as is monitoring the productivity of staff.

One of the biggest benefits of the WFH shift is that when I head to the office, my commute time is much better. Even the heavy traffic days (with school starting again) aren't quite so bad.

The biggest issue with WFH for me has been our home environment. Two elementary school-aged kids being home with us is not conducive to me working. When they're back in school full time that will of course change. We don't have a true office for me or my wife - I have an alcove off the family room and wife is fine working in the kitchen or dining room. I like the neighborhood I live in and my proximity to Boston and I've previously balked at moving further from the city due to potential commutes for a job change and current commute. If the remote workplace changes stick I would consider moving another town or two out with a more WFH-friendly house.

And the consideration for those whose jobs were never WFH but can now be done remotely (coming from someone in IT who lives this) - be careful what you wish for. The salary you demand in HCOL areas will be a thorn in your side when there's a similar candidate in Kentucky who is looking for 20-30% less. And the 30% savings looks great to the c-suite but then hey is there a reason department X couldn't be completely offshored and drop those salary and bene's 70%? It's already a reality of the current climate but it could accelerate as a result of the shift.

House for sale in my neighborhood.

You touch on another reason I think split WFH is likely permanent, it largely solves the transportation crush we had in Boston and I’m sure other locations. And it certain helps reduce the carbon footprint. Many companies were pushing ride sharing and other measures (impossible for most people) and this can be touted in the same way.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

As a teacher, working from home has been a major harbinger for me possibly moving on from 11 years in private school to possibly starting in public school. At my private school, in addition to teaching and chairing the math department, I coach, am an advisor, do some administrative work and wear "many different hats".

All fulfilling stuff, but teaching at home gave me an insight to what it's like if I only taught math. None of my other duties were needed if kids weren't around. Teaching, itself, is not stressful and most of my work stress has been around financial scares within our school.

The long-term projection of independent schools in isn't good and plenty of good teachers from my school and others around lost their job solely for budgeting cuts. Each year I stay, the higher proportion of co-workers are either single men/women or women with rich husbands who aren't dependent on a pay check. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't fit that profile and the job isn't sustainable long-term for my lifestyle.

On that note, I was fortunate to learn that Connecticut changed their prerequisites to teach middle school math in its public schools. All I had to do was pass the Praxis II and show that I've been teaching for 3+ years. My certification finalized a few weeks ago and I'll look for public school jobs next spring. I live in Norwalk, so I'm surrounded by good paying districts and on average, I'll make somewhere between 15k-25k more right away, 30k+ more in a few years, better short- and long-term benefits, better job security (public schools ain't going anywhere), plus a potential for pension. No kids yet, but if we end up having kids, we would need to be a two-income family so that pay increase would make a potential for affording day care much less scary and I wouldn't be depending on affording day-to-day due to tutoring gigs. If we end up without kids, more money to enjoy ourselves.

Unfortunately, it's a time where millions of people have lost jobs simply because of circumstances out of their control and I feel terrible for anyone on here who has dealt with that. One important lesson I've learned from these six months is we live in constant impermanence and successful people need to be flexible as the times change.

 

[M.S.G.]

My wife got the work from home orders until June 2021.. There's nothing more infuriating with having to get up and go teach, she's still sleeping when I leave - and when I come home she's in sweats watching Family Feud. Rage level has been very high lately.

 

[M.S.G.]

As a teacher, working from home has been a major harbinger for me possibly moving on from 11 years in private school to possibly starting in public school. At my private school, in addition to teaching and chairing the math department, I coach, am an advisor, do some administrative work and wear "many different hats".

All fulfilling stuff, but teaching at home gave me an insight to what it's like if I only taught math. None of my other duties were needed if kids weren't around. Teaching, itself, is not stressful and most of my work stress has been around financial scares within our school. The long-term projection of independent schools in isn't good and plenty of good teachers from my school and others around lost their job solely for budgeting cuts.

On that note, I was fortunate to learn that Connecticut changed their prerequisites to teach middle school math in its public schools. All I had to do was pass the Praxis II and show that I've been teaching for 3+ years. My certification finalized a few weeks ago and I'll look for public school jobs next spring. I live in Norwalk, so I'm surrounded by good paying districts and on average, I'll make somewhere between 15k-25k more right away, 30k+ more in a few years, better short- and long-term benefits, better job security (public schools ain't going anywhere) nplus a potential for pension.

Unfortunately, it's a time where millions of people have lost jobs simmply because of circumstances of the time and I feel terrible for anyone on here who has dealt with that. One important lesson I've learned from these six months is we live in constant impermanence and successful people need to be flexible as the times change.

This is a really great perspective. I don't disagree with anything you said, I think you'll see how much of a breeze public school can be (in the right situation).

 

[Chin Diesel]

My wife got the work from home orders until June 2021.. There's nothing more infuriating with having to get up and go teach, she's still sleeping when I leave - and when I come home she's in sweats watching Family Feud. Rage level has been very high lately.

I get in at least two episodes of Family Feud every day.

 

[M.S.G.]

I get in at least two episodes of Family Feud every day.

The fact I actually have to go teach 4 days a week has severely cramped my 2 hours of Seinfeld every morning routine!

 

[Deepster]

There is no way real relationships are built through a computer screen.

So prior to Covid you didn’t have any co workers who were full time remote or in a field office?

 

[the Q]

I’m a spreadsheet jockey.

Working from home as been amazing. I said after about 2 months at my job I could’ve done it 100% remote and this plague has proven it.

I never want to go back.

 

[Yardigan]

Have been working at home for 15 years or so now and have had multiple promotions, so I think it's doable. It's important to have a regular meeting cadence with your boss to make sure they know what you're doing and ensuring you're doing what they need. As long as you have the mindset that the biggest part of your job is to make your boss look good, it seems to work from anywhere.

Our company sent everyone home in March and has told most not to think about returning to the office until at least January, possibly beyond. My guess is 'beyond' for most. Haven't had problems working with people and beyond being able to work together, I already have friends and family. I look at my co-workers as colleagues and not people I'm going to hang out with after work. (Did that when I was younger, and I actually think it "can" make for more problems than it solves). As a manager, I think if you stay in touch with what people want to tell you is going on with their personal lives, show concern, be flexible and understanding, it works.

Poster above referenced the challenge of working at home with no dedicated office space and two young kids in the house. That was my situation in CT, and it did present occasional challenges. Back then, there was little to no tolerance for background noise, issues that needed to be taken care of around the house, etc., and that did cause some occasional stress. Since moving to RI, our 'kids' are adults now and even though I don't have totally dedicated office space, it's very workable. Interestingly enough, the 'new' guidance for managers is to be extremely tolerant of background noise, flexibility, etc., which I find very easy to do, since I already lived it.

The hardest thing for a lot of people, I think, is overcoming the temptation to overwork, because work is "always there." I stress work/life balance to my folks because the only thing you're likely to get out of working nights, weekends, or on days off, is resentment. I can't pay you more or promote you because you work 70 hours a week. I can let you be very flexible with your time, just get your work done. As a manager, I need to be authentic with that messaging, too. As tempting as it is sometimes to'take care of a few work things in the evening/on the weekend or day off...I can't tell my people to take that time off if I don't.

I keep reading new 'advice' for people working at home, usually starting with...get up at the same time, shower, get dressed like you were going in to the office. I do pretty much the opposite. No alarm clock, up anytime between 630-730...walk by the computer, turn it on, hit the coffee, back to the computer desk and am off to work. Have booked on my calendar an hour and 15 minutes for lunch every day, and usually use that for a 3 mile walk, a shower and a bite to eat. Sometimes I have to move it, but I never cancel it. I find it extremely valuable to disconnect completely for that timeslot in the middle of the day and encourage my employees to do likewise. Some struggle with that, I just tell them, no one ever dies and no critical project fails just because you went to lunch.

I love it, it'll probably keep me in the workforce at least a couple years more than if I had to go into an office every day. Good luck everyone that's having to adapt!

 

[UCSouth]

My wife got the work from home orders until June 2021.. There's nothing more infuriating with having to get up and go teach, she's still sleeping when I leave - and when I come home she's in sweats watching Family Feud. Rage level has been very high lately.

Why would the "Rage Level" be an issue. She still has that paycheck coming in. Count it as a blessing that she has the opportunity to work from home and didn't lose her job.

 

[M.S.G.]

The rage issue is that she gets to work from home and I don't.

You're slow.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Why would the "Rage Level" be an issue. She still has that paycheck coming in. Count it as a blessing that she has the opportunity to work from home and didn't lose her job.

The rage issue is that she gets to work from home and I don't.

You're slow.

Rage level is she is wearing his sweats.

 

[Lefty2one]

For most folks the light bulb has gone on in terms of how much your work/life balance improves with WFH, how much of your life you were wasting commuting, getting ready in the morning, etc.

My job has never required normal 9-5 hours and I've always worked from home here and there but the last few months have been remarkable in terms of overall quality of life improvements.

The kicker is I'm more productive when WFH. I wake up at 7:30, go right downstairs to my office and bang out two hours of uninterrupted work. I'm fresh mentally and nothing else has grabbed my attention after waking up. I've found this to lead to a nice improvement in my productivity. My to-do list for the day gets KO'd immediately then I have my breakfast and coffee. By 9:30 I've already had a productive day and can move on to new issues, projects, etc.

Compare that with waking up at 7:30, taking a shower, making breakfast, getting dressed, getting in the car and getting to my office around 9:15, shooting the breeze for a bit, then start doing actual work around 10 AM. It's remarkably inefficient.

The reality is that a lot of full-time jobs don't require 40-45 hours of work per week. The odd cultural norm in America of needing to work hard and work a million hours is such a farce. I'm working 25 hours a week during the pandemic and I'm crushing my job--the real work. Clients are happy and I have more free time to do other things. I'm healthier and saving money (not buying lunch out during the week).

Cities will be fine but they won't be the same. All of the poor souls in the tri-state area who suffer through hellish commutes to Manhattan will never want to revert back to our old office ways. With WFH these folks get an extra 10-15 hours (hell, even some lunatics will get 20) of their life back each week. Think about that. The hobbies you can now fit in or more family time or more time working on your own mental and physical health. Many folks like WFH during a pandemic where their recreational activities are limited; imagine how much they'll love it when they can resume the rest of their normal life? Want to take a 3-day weekend to Vermont or Maine? No problem, leave on Thursday night and work from your AirBnB on Friday. As an aside, reduce rush hour traffic is a nice perk for all of us.

This change is a good thing for most industries and most jobs, it's just such a paradigm shift that it'll take some time for everyone to get used to it.

 

[M.S.G.]

Love that post above.

The point about the commute is so serious... My wife and I both have 45 minute commutes, now I only have that commute 4 days a week since I teach from home on Wednesdays.

The effect on my mental health is evident on Tuesday night, I know I'm going to get 8 hours of sleep going into Wednesday, teaching from home is cake so there's zero stress for the day.. There's absolutely something to this all...

 

[CL82]

As a teacher, working from home has been a major harbinger for me possibly moving on from 11 years in private school to possibly starting in public school. At my private school, in addition to teaching and chairing the math department, I coach, am an advisor, do some administrative work and wear "many different hats".

All fulfilling stuff, but teaching at home gave me an insight to what it's like if I only taught math. None of my other duties were needed if kids weren't around. Teaching, itself, is not stressful and most of my work stress has been around financial scares within our school.

The long-term projection of independent schools in isn't good and plenty of good teachers from my school and others around lost their job solely for budgeting cuts. Each year I stay, the higher proportion of co-workers are either single men/women or women with rich husbands who aren't dependent on a pay check. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't fit that profile and the job isn't sustainable long-term for my lifestyle.

On that note, I was fortunate to learn that Connecticut changed their prerequisites to teach middle school math in its public schools. All I had to do was pass the Praxis II and show that I've been teaching for 3+ years. My certification finalized a few weeks ago and I'll look for public school jobs next spring. I live in Norwalk, so I'm surrounded by good paying districts and on average, I'll make somewhere between 15k-25k more right away, 30k+ more in a few years, better short- and long-term benefits, better job security (public schools ain't going anywhere), plus a potential for pension. No kids yet, but if we end up having kids, we would need to be a two-income family so that pay increase would make a potential for affording day care much less scary and I wouldn't be depending on affording day-to-day due to tutoring gigs. If we end up without kids, more money to enjoy ourselves.

Unfortunately, it's a time where millions of people have lost jobs simply because of circumstances out of their control and I feel terrible for anyone on here who has dealt with that. One important lesson I've learned from these six months is we live in constant impermanence and successful people need to be flexible as the times change.

Any concern that remote teaching allows for consolidation of jobs? If most of the teaching is going to be remote, does it make sense to have one highly qualified, highly skilled, and highly paid individual to teach multiple classes across multiple districts, who are absorb his or her salary? Personal instruction can be supplemented by lower paid individuals.

I feel like a remote learning has the potential to eliminate teaching jobs and homogenize curriculums. That’s probably a good result if you are in a low performing district, but perhaps not if you’re in a high-performing district.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Love that post above.

The point about the commute is so serious... My wife and I both have 45 minute commutes, now I only have that commute 4 days a week since I teach from home on Wednesdays.

The effect on my mental health is evident on Tuesday night, I know I'm going to get 8 hours of sleep going into Wednesday, teaching from home is cake so there's zero stress for the day.. There's absolutely something to this all...

I’ve had friends who commuted from the other side of New Haven to Manhattan. I went from south San Jose to Palo Alto for awhile. Still know people who go from RI to Boston.

I decided years ago, 30 minutes each way was all I’d do. Maybe 35. That means I’ve turned down job opportunities in the Boston area in hellish commute areas like Cambridge, Burlington etc. I simply won’t give up that many hours of what is left of my life. I‘d be fine being WFH the rest of my career (with occasional days in on my schedule).

I think any employer who seeks to require full time in the office going forward is going to be very disadvantaged in recruiting. WFH plus in office hoteling based space seems a near ideal result for many.

 

[superjohn]

Yep, you guys nailed it. NYC, Boston, and Chicago are done...young people all want to live in Utica, Bangor, and Peoria now.

 

[Yardigan]

I’ve had friends who commuted from the other side of New Haven to Manhattan. I went from south San Jose to Palo Alto for awhile. Still know people who go from RI to Boston.

I decided years ago, 30 minutes each way was all I’d do. Maybe 35. That means I’ve turned down job opportunities in the Boston area in hellish commute areas like Cambridge, Burlington etc. I simply won’t give up that many hours of what is left of my life. I‘d be fine being WFH the rest of my career (with occasional days in on my schedule).

I think any employer who seeks to require full time in the office going forward is going to be very disadvantaged in recruiting. WFH plus in office hoteling based space seems a near ideal result for many.

I have close to 20 reports, most have been wfh for a few years, and most of those that had to move home, love it. And, I'm glad they are there. Other managers will probably agree, it's often easier to get in touch with your wfh employees than those in an office. Most of my ee's want to stay home. I do have one employee...who lives by herself that really misses going in to the office, otherwise, the rest of my ee's want to stay at home and I'm all for it.