Women's college basketball winners and losers: UConn avoids trouble for now

[SVCBeercats]

Women's college basketball winners and losers: UConn avoids trouble for now; Ohio State's 3-game skid

Caitlin Clark is on triple-double watch again, Cameron Brink's blocks history, games to watch this week and the latest AP Top 25 poll.

sports.yahoo.com

"UConn is in trouble. Except when it’s not. It’s a draining, season-long conundrum that requires discussion since the team remains a top-five-ranked club and destined for a Final Four."

 

[diggerfoot]

The trouble repeatedly stated in the article is mental fatigue, with an emphasis by Edwards that their bodies are conditioned for the grind. The possible consequence cited is the mental fatigue catching up with them come tournament time.

I’ve been a little cowardly about this topic. As an endurance athlete I wanted to chime in that the issue is not physical fatigue, but did not want to appear to be insensitive in contradicting those who claim it is. I know the human body to be capable of conditioning that exceeds what basketball players experience, but the difference is that for most true endurance sports the mind can go on autopilot for long stretches.

For a basketball player there must be enduring mental focus and conditioning that is at least as important as the physical. Mental fatigue is why there are trap games, lulls in the season and clearly superior pro teams that sweep every playoffs yet lose during the regular season. In our case the constant injuries contributes mightily to mental fatigue.

Which brings me to 2018 Notre Dame once again. Why did not mental fatigue trip them up in the tournament? Adrenaline in large part, with a little assist from cortisol, as well as dopamine and other hormones. The tournament presents an atmosphere that hormonally rejuvenates the mind.

There may be other reasons why previous injuries will cause us to fall short at the end of the year, but otherwise I have been impressed with the spirit and mental toughness of this squad and think that will serve them well come tournament time.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

The trouble repeatedly stated in the article is mental fatigue, with an emphasis by Edwards that their bodies are conditioned for the grind. The possible consequence cited is the mental fatigue catching up with them come tournament time.

I’ve been a little cowardly about this topic. As an endurance athlete I wanted to chime in that the issue is not physical fatigue, but did not want to appear to be insensitive in contradicting those who claim it is. I know the human body to be capable of conditioning that exceeds what basketball players experience, but the difference is that for most true endurance sports the mind can go on autopilot for long stretches.

For a basketball player there must be enduring mental focus and conditioning that is at least as important as the physical. Mental fatigue is why there are trap games, lulls in the season and clearly superior pro teams that sweep every playoffs yet lose during the regular season. In our case the constant injuries contributes mightily to mental fatigue.

Which brings me to 2018 Notre Dame once again. Why did not mental fatigue trip them up in the tournament? Adrenaline in large part, with a little assist from cortisol, as well as dopamine and other hormones. The tournament presents an atmosphere that hormonally rejuvenates the mind.

There may be other reasons why previous injuries will cause us to fall short at the end of the year, but otherwise I have been impressed with the spirit and mental toughness of this squad and think that will serve them well come tournament time.

I agree with this. There are many other sports that are much more physically wearing on the body that I don't quite understand the pearl clutching on playing 40 minutes a game, with time outs and halftime etc, twice a week. I would imagine practices are much more exhausting for athletes and they practice more than they play. Basketball isn't a sport that wears down the body over a season like gymnastics or football or even long distance running.

The mental aspect is a concern, but to your point, the tournament typically refreshes that so we will see.

 

[HuskyNan]

I agree with this. There are many other sports that are much more physically wearing on the body that I don't quite understand the pearl clutching on playing 40 minutes a game, with time outs and halftime etc, twice a week. I would imagine practices are much more exhausting for athletes and they practice more than they play. Basketball isn't a sport that wears down the body over a season like gymnastics or football or even long distance running.

The mental aspect is a concern, but to your point, the tournament typically refreshes that so we will see.

Pearl clutching? Making friends and influencing people, I see.

Do endurance runners get shoved around, pushed, held, and banged into for 40 minutes? How many times do they end up on the ground because someone ran into them at full speed, maybe someone that’s 6-3 or 6-4? Are they required to process what the other runners are doing, mentally recalibrate and take into account their actions constantly while being aware that the next move, pass, or shot could be a fatal error? Do they need to take classes, practice, get physical therapy, do weight workouts then get on a bus or plane the next day and do it all again? Do they have a horde of fans expecting them to be perfect every game, say they suck if they make a mistake, then claim they shouldn’t be playing because they aren’t as good as someone that hasn’t competed all year? Over, and over and over again, every day?

Thats some marathon

 

[Bone Dog]

I agree, mostly, with @diggerfoot and @hoopsnloops32, with a caveat or three. There are other elements to basketball's physical conditioning that endurance sports don't feature, like hand-eye (and foot-eye?) coordination. If a player's shooting stroke and footwork deteriorates from fatigue (as Lou's seemed to against Villanova) or the snap in their passing, or their ability to box out for rebounds -- we don't see direct parallels to these in endurance sports, but they are most definitely a result of physical fatigue... as well as mental and emotional fatigue. And, of course, this hardly accounts for the rough and tumble of basketball, which exacts both a physical and a mental toll.

 

[Littlemin]

Regarding 2018 Notre Dame, the NCAA tournament is a much different animal than the regular season or conference tournaments. There are at least 4 days off in between what are essentially 3 consecutive 2 games in 3 day mini tournaments; win those tournaments and there is ample time to recharge mentally and physically for the next weeks games. Uconn‘s biggest challenge in the “fatigue” realm will come this Sunday, largely driven by the quality and style of play of SC. That game would represent a tremendous challenge were not Uconn short handed.

 

[npignatjr]

I agree with this. There are many other sports that are much more physically wearing on the body that I don't quite understand the pearl clutching on playing 40 minutes a game, with time outs and halftime etc, twice a week. I would imagine practices are much more exhausting for athletes and they practice more than they play. Basketball isn't a sport that wears down the body over a season like gymnastics or football or even long distance running.

The mental aspect is a concern, but to your point, the tournament typically refreshes that so we will see.

UConn just played 4 games in 8 days.

 

[npignatjr]

The trouble repeatedly stated in the article is mental fatigue, with an emphasis by Edwards that their bodies are conditioned for the grind. The possible consequence cited is the mental fatigue catching up with them come tournament time.

I’ve been a little cowardly about this topic. As an endurance athlete I wanted to chime in that the issue is not physical fatigue, but did not want to appear to be insensitive in contradicting those who claim it is. I know the human body to be capable of conditioning that exceeds what basketball players experience, but the difference is that for most true endurance sports the mind can go on autopilot for long stretches.

For a basketball player there must be enduring mental focus and conditioning that is at least as important as the physical. Mental fatigue is why there are trap games, lulls in the season and clearly superior pro teams that sweep every playoffs yet lose during the regular season. In our case the constant injuries contributes mightily to mental fatigue.

Which brings me to 2018 Notre Dame once again. Why did not mental fatigue trip them up in the tournament? Adrenaline in large part, with a little assist from cortisol, as well as dopamine and other hormones. The tournament presents an atmosphere that hormonally rejuvenates the mind.

There may be other reasons why previous injuries will cause us to fall short at the end of the year, but otherwise I have been impressed with the spirit and mental toughness of this squad and think that will serve them well come tournament time.

2018 ND won with official help.

 

[Zorro]

They should be well-rested for SC. But there will likely still be only five of them. And in the back of each of their minds must be; "If I get in foul trouble, the team is in trouble." Thus they must not only play hard, but must be extra careful not to foul, or to get into a situation where the kind of refs we have had over the past two games can charge them with a foul that they did not, in fact, commit. While they have ALL handled this situation very well, it must, to an extent, cause them to be less aggressive than they would be if they knew that they had a capable sub on the bench; less inclined to go for steals, to fight too hard for rebounds, to drive to the basket. This fact makes the record of the starting five, since we lost Azzi and Caroline, even more astounding and laudable! And it will still be true against SC!

 

[Zinethar]

I don't necessarily buy the opinion that this team is short handed or has no bench (an insult to those available to play for sure). Geno has rarely used more than 7, sometimes 8 players in games except for blow out situations (not getting into if that is good or bad - just a fact). UConn has bench players available if they choose to use them. Are they likely as good as the starters. No teams bench is because if the bench players were as good or better than the starters usually they would be the starters. In close games a team usually wants its best players on the floor. Sometimes a certain substitute is used for a particular skill or not used for lack of the needed skill. Yes the team would be certainly better with a bench (or starter) of Azzi or Caroline due to their skill sets which would make the bench in certain settings far more valuable. It is not that Geno needs more players or UConn has no bench. It is because it needs reserves that have skill sets the current bench is lacking.

 

[cohenzone]

While it is understandable that issues of fatigue and endurance are a topic ripe for discussion and differences of opinion regarding 20 year old top shelf athletes, the high level of expectations for UConn figures in to all of it. The point being, what constitutes UConn’s rough sledding is a great year for 99% of the other D1 programs, meaning it will be harder for them to win an NC. Nobody is paying attention if the team with the 260th worst record is missing half the team and 5 players are playing 99% of the minutes. I’m just beyond impressed with this group of players and the coaching this year. They only have 4 players right now in street clothes that would be an NC contending group and the others we are so lucky to have playing for our team are as tough a bunch as exist. That we can still think this group can be in the picture for an NC even if a bit overused is amazing. Imagine a program where the conundrum facing the coach is what impact might arise on team chemistry if one of the best players in the country returns to full health and they have to decide if she should start. One thing is for sure. This group probably sleeps well.

 

[Longtime fan]

Pearl clutching? Making friends and influencing people, I see.

Do endurance runners get shoved around, pushed, held, and banged into for 40 minutes? How many times do they end up on the ground because someone ran into them at full speed, maybe someone that’s 6-3 or 6-4? Are they required to process what the other runners are doing, mentally recalibrate and take into account their actions constantly while being aware that the next move, pass, or shot could be a fatal error? Do they need to take classes, practice, get physical therapy, do weight workouts then get on a bus or plane the next day and do it all again? Do they have a horde of fans expecting them to be perfect every game, say they suck if they make a mistake, then claim they shouldn’t be playing because they aren’t as good as someone that hasn’t competed all year? Over, and over and over again, every day?

Thats some marathon

I'll say this, Nan...you tell it like it is. well said.

 

[PacoSwede]

'20-year-olds' has been cited a few times ... huh? a least 2 of the starters are well north of 20. .... not sure of the other 3 but i suspect their average is more than 20.

does anyone know their ages? i'd guess liya may be the youngest starter.
.
no big deal. i just don't want the BY to perpetuate a likely myth.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

'20-year-olds' has been cited a few times ... huh? a least 2 of the starters are well north of 20. .... not sure of the other 3 but i suspect their average is more than 20.

does anyone know their ages? i'd guess liya may be the youngest starter.
.
no big deal. i just don't want the BY to perpetuate a likely myth.

By 20 year olds they mean 20 somethings.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Pearl clutching? Making friends and influencing people, I see.

Do endurance runners get shoved around, pushed, held, and banged into for 40 minutes? How many times do they end up on the ground because someone ran into them at full speed, maybe someone that’s 6-3 or 6-4? Are they required to process what the other runners are doing, mentally recalibrate and take into account their actions constantly while being aware that the next move, pass, or shot could be a fatal error? Do they need to take classes, practice, get physical therapy, do weight workouts then get on a bus or plane the next day and do it all again? Do they have a horde of fans expecting them to be perfect every game, say they suck if they make a mistake, then claim they shouldn’t be playing because they aren’t as good as someone that hasn’t competed all year? Over, and over and over again, every day?

Thats some marathon

The pushing/holding/banging isn't doing the same damage to the body that endurance running/gymnastics/football does is my point. I'm not saying what they are doing in the moment isn't difficult but it doesn't have the same long lasting damage on teh body as the other sports mentioned, which is a good thing. People are acting like is unhealthy or physically impossible to play 40 minutes a game 2-3 times a week but its really not. Their practices are likely harder on the bodies than the games so long term damage or fatigue shouldn't be a concern, the same way it would be in other sports.

 

[HuskyNan]

The pushing/holding/banging isn't doing the same damage to the body that endurance running/gymnastics/football does is my point.

Do runners, gymnasts, or football players have a race/meet/game every other day? No? I wonder why? Could it be to give them time to recover from strenuous activity because they’re - wait for it - tired?

You’re comparing apples to watermelons.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Do runners, gymnasts, or football players have a race/meet/game every other day? No? I wonder why? Could it be to give them time to recover from strenuous activity because they’re - wait for it - tired?

You’re comparing apples to watermelons.

I'm not sure what you are saying to be honest?

I am saying basketball has less long term wear and tear issues than other sports, meaning fatigue is mostly isolated to individual games versus cumulative minutes over the course of a season. I.e if someone plays 40 minutes in November it won't impact their play in April.

However in the other sports mentioned, pacing is more of a concern. In gymnastics you up difficulty over the course of a season and to decrease the amount of reps you have to practice those skills. Same for running. Marathon runners don't run 26.2 miles everytime they run, they build up to it and usually save the full marathon for the final race. This isn't an issue in basketball.

Why this is relevant to UConn is that fatigue isn't cumulative so playing 40 minutues against Villanova isn't going to effect the energy levels against South Carolina or game later in February, physically. Mentally is another story.

 

[diggerfoot]

I agree, mostly, with @diggerfoot and @hoopsnloops32, with a caveat or three. There are other elements to basketball's physical conditioning that endurance sports don't feature, like hand-eye (and foot-eye?) coordination. If a player's shooting stroke and footwork deteriorates from fatigue (as Lou's seemed to against Villanova) or the snap in their passing, or their ability to box out for rebounds -- we don't see direct parallels to these in endurance sports, but they are most definitely a result of physical fatigue... as well as mental and emotional fatigue. And, of course, this hardly accounts for the rough and tumble of basketball, which exacts both a physical and a mental toll.

Much of what you attribute to physical fatigue I would still call mental fatigue. While I was a decent marathoner, that was more of a past time in the off season of my main “sport,” long distance hiking.

Whether hiking 40 miles a day for over a month to map the AT, over 30 miles a day for weeks with a full pack, carrying a oack over 100 pounds at elevations of 10,000 feet and elevation change in the thousands, or once setting the 24 hour record of hiking 80 miles in one day on the AT, more mental focus was required for hiking than with distance running.

Blisters, tendonitis, bruises and rashes were all typical ailments that one had to mentally endure, and I maintain that the enduring of physical impacts, whether a blowdown or post player, is more mental if you are sufficiently conditioned for the sport.

Beyond that, one better have the physical conditioning for the foot/eye coordination to work well on that 35th mile on a steep, downhill rocky slope that you can’t linger on in order to complete the day by dark. The consequence otherwise could be broken bones or worse.

Yet having said that, my mind could still be on autopilot for much of the day, traveling over smooth, graded trails for much of that time. That makes what I did easier, mentally easier not physically, than a 40 minute basketball game at an elite level.

And I would say that the reason Bueckers and others have such great eye/hand coordination at the end of games, or Jordan can score 42 points while suffering from the flu, is not because they are so much better physically conditioned specimens, but because they have a mental toughness few have.

 

[Topdawg]

To throw some data into the mix, approximate distances run in a game are:
Baseball: less than 0.5 miles
Football: 1.5 miles
Basketball: 2.75 miles
Field Hockey: 5.5 miles
Soccer: 7 miles.

Basketball and Soccer ( and football) also involve physical contact, and that adds to the physical fatigue. The lateral motion in basketball is more tiring than forward motion.

In basketball, you have to watch your own players and the opponents all the time. The brain tires a lot faster when it has to focus on multiple things, e.g., sensing, analyzing, moving, passing. Hence mental fatigue becomes more of a factor than physical fatigue. UConn athletes can easily run 2.75 miles every day!

 

[HuskyNan]

I'm not sure what you are saying to be honest?

I am saying basketball has less long term wear and tear issues than other sports, meaning fatigue is mostly isolated to individual games versus cumulative minutes over the course of a season. I.e if someone plays 40 minutes in November it won't impact their play in April.

However in the other sports mentioned, pacing is more of a concern. In gymnastics you up difficulty over the course of a season and to decrease the amount of reps you have to practice those skills. Same for running. Marathon runners don't run 26.2 miles everytime they run, they build up to it and usually save the full marathon for the final race. This isn't an issue in basketball.

Why this is relevant to UConn is that fatigue isn't cumulative so playing 40 minutues against Villanova isn't going to effect the energy levels against South Carolina or game later in February, physically. Mentally is another story.

We’re talking along parallel paths, I think. I was addressing this post you made earlier in the thread:

There are many other sports that are much more physically wearing on the body that I don't quite understand the pearl clutching on playing 40 minutes a game, with time outs and halftime etc, twice a week. I would imagine practices are much more exhausting for athletes and they practice more than they play. Basketball isn't a sport that wears down the body over a season like gymnastics or football or even long distance running.

I now understand that you’re talking about the last sentence in your post, regarding cumulative fatigue, while I’m talking about shorter term specifically UConn over this 5 game stretch.

For the record, I disagree with the last sentence, too, and have a bunch of anecdotal evidence to provide. Just looking at, say, a C Vivian Stringer Rutgers team that rolled over teams by employing a fierce press. They would start out the year as a really tough team to play but the physical stress of pressing 30 minutes a game took its toll in stress fractures, strains/sprains, and simple fatigue. The Scarlet Knights would famously flame out around the conference conference tournament until C Viv adjusted her defensive schemes.

But, I think maybe we should agree to disagree because we’re kind of chasing our tails

 

[UcMiami]

Well, I think it is mostly hokum. The brain and body of 18-25 year olds is close to at it's maximum in terms of energy reserve, recovery, and output.

Playing 40 minutes with mini breaks whenever a foul is called, larger breaks when time outs are called and between quarters, and a larger break for halftime, and moments of inaction each time a team walks the ball up court is not that grueling for great athletes. Add in a few minutes on the bench in most games. All the players I have heard talk about energy levels have said that they look forward to game days as the practices are much harder and longer than the games. And the coaches know this so when they get a stretch of 4 games in 8 days, practices get cut as does the prep time for games. That in itself makes the games more difficult to play because they haven't been able to put the work in to adjust their game for the next opponent. The advantage they have is they play the same teams twice each year in conference, and most of the OOC each year are the same teams, so their prep work for most is a reminder of previous prep when the season gets compressed into these stretches. (And fairly evenly sprinkled in with the 'hard games' are much easier games where the starters play 30 minutes or less.)

One of the reasons Uconn has such tough practices is specifically to stretch mental and physical endurance in the team and the success shows in games. Uconn players don't gasp for breath, signal to be given breathers on the bench, or double over clutching their shorts during breaks in action. Another reason is muscle memory and mental recognition of patterns - the repetition at game speed over and over is not by accident, nor is the yelling. I think it was Sue's famous quote, 'We don't practice until we get it right, we practice until don't get it wrong.'

This year we have injuries, Breanna famously put out a call for walk-ons one year because the roster was depleted, There was a year where Maya and company had only seven players available for the year I think, and those years were championship seasons and no one talked about endurance. Now the rosters those years were fabulous and this year significant talent is injured, but the starting five all look very good to me. We have a Lieberman nominee, a candidate for AA/NPOY, a candidate for comeback player, a leading percentage shooter, and a 5th year player flirting with averaging a double double. The fact we have a NPOY and a top ten freshman sitting out the year, and two other high quality players injured is tough luck but the team playing is seriously good.

Mental mistakes and physical fatigue are the things other teams suffer and the reason Uconn has more undefeated seasons than every other D1 team combined. Does Uconn play less than perfect on occasion, yes. Do they occasionally lose to better teams, of course. Do they occasionally lose to lesser teams, very rarely. Every year seems to have a doldrums stretch when the sun barely shines and the campus is on break but that is not physical or mental tiredness in the way people seem to talk - I think it is more simple lethargy and a human desire to hibernate when you wake up in the dark and eat dinner in the dark, and spring seems so very far away!

 

[Alydar]

Pearl clutching? Making friends and influencing people, I see.

Do endurance runners get shoved around, pushed, held, and banged into for 40 minutes? How many times do they end up on the ground because someone ran into them at full speed, maybe someone that’s 6-3 or 6-4? Are they required to process what the other runners are doing, mentally recalibrate and take into account their actions constantly while being aware that the next move, pass, or shot could be a fatal error? Do they need to take classes, practice, get physical therapy, do weight workouts then get on a bus or plane the next day and do it all again? Do they have a horde of fans expecting them to be perfect every game, say they suck if they make a mistake, then claim they shouldn’t be playing because they aren’t as good as someone that hasn’t competed all year? Over, and over and over again, every day?

Thats some marathon

Geno recently commented that 40 min in a game is less taxing on a UConn player than a two hour practice. In October they have 3 of those a week and no one is "clutching pearls" then because it's out of our sight. He went on to say that the players like this part of the season more than October-December, when there is a lot more practicing than playing. UConn practices are designed to teach you to play at a high level after exhaustion has set in. The games are what all the practice is about.
As far as any mental fatigue, it is usually freshmen that get it. UConn's starting 5 have 20 seasons of experience. The Vill game was a hangover from Tenn. Horston laid a bigger egg than did Senechal. Vill is a really good team and they had a week to get ready. It's a one off. Getting tired? Isn't that what competitive sports are all about? Who said the greatest feeling was laying on the ground at the end of a contest, totally exhausted ... and victorious?