WNBA-Players' Union Agreement

[Sifaka]

At last, league and union agree to new WNBA CBA

The WNBA and the WNBPA agreed in principle to a new collective bargaining agreement early Wednesday.

www.espn.com

 

[oldude]

Good news! I have no doubt that the price of my WNBA League Pass streaming service will increase to pay the bill…….

 

[Sifaka]

Good news! I have no doubt that the price of my WNBA League Pass streaming service will increase to pay the bill…….

Probably right, with Green Eyeshade Englebert in charge. But what if the W actually had marketing management. They might even lower the price for a year or two to build volume, establish a broad, loyal fanbase…. I know, not likely with current “management”.

 

[NycUcWbbFan]

WNBA, WNBPA Reach Tentative Verbal Agreement for New CBA

“A timeline previously shared with general managers had the expansion draft being held between April 1 and 6. Qualifying offers, including core designations, could be sent out on April 7 and 8, followed by a negotiating period from April 9-11. The signing period would begin on April 12 and extend through the 18th.”

“”This deal is going to be transformational,” Stewart said. “You’ll see the details hopefully soon, but it’s going to build and help create a system where everybody is getting exactly what they deserve and more. From on the court and off the court aspects. I’m just excited that we can tell our fans that we’re going to be back.””

 

[BobbyJ]

Probably right, with Green Eyeshade Englebert in charge. But what if the W actually had marketing management. They might even lower the price for a year or two to build volume, establish a broad, loyal fanbase…. I know, not likely with current “management”.

I agree. As you probably know, the NBA is basically the manager/owner of the WNBA while controlling about 60% of it. And they'll milk every last dollar out of it.

The WNBA Labor Dispute Is Just Another Choice Made by the NBA - The Sling

 

[Sifaka]

For those who claimed, without either evidence or even logic, that Stewart and Collier as members of union leadership had some ill-defined “conflict of interest” please consider this. The union, with massive backing by membership, has apparently succeeded in negotiating a really, really, REALLY big increase in player salaries and benefits.

Here is a speculative thought. The existence of Unrivaled was an invisible party at the negotiating table. The W probably worried that failure to reach an agreement with the players might lead the new league to offer head-to-head competition.

 

[oldude]

For those who claimed, without either evidence or even logic, that Stewart and Collier as members of union leadership had some ill-defined “conflict of interest” please consider this. The union, with massive backing by membership, has apparently succeeded in negotiating a really, really, REALLY big increase in player salaries and benefits.

Here is a speculative thought. The existence of Unrivaled was an invisible party at the negotiating table. The W probably worried that failure to reach an agreement with the players might lead the new league to offer head-to-head competition.

You have to wonder if Unrivaled survives this new contract in the W. I have no doubt that the ownership in the W hope the new contract kills the 3x3 league.

 

[BobbyJ]

For those who claimed, without either evidence or even logic, that Stewart and Collier as members of union leadership had some ill-defined “conflict of interest” please consider this. The union, with massive backing by membership, has apparently succeeded in negotiating a really, really, REALLY big increase in player salaries and benefits.

Here is a speculative thought. The existence of Unrivaled was an invisible party at the negotiating table. The W probably worried that failure to reach an agreement with the players might lead the new league to offer head-to-head competition.

Yes, and the NBA doesn't want competition for viewership, especially in January and February. I'm waiting to see how long it will be before they attempt to "buy out" that potential competition.

 

[Sifaka]

You have to wonder if Unrivaled survives this new contract in the W. I have no doubt that the ownership in the W hope the new contract kills the 3x3 league.

I think that Unrivaled understands consumer marketing much more than the W. They put a good product on display. The seasons don’t overlap. The players have a personal financial stake in the success of the league. All of that bodes well.

The prior need to go abroad in the W off-season is now much reduced, but Unrivaled may still have enough to attract top players.

 

[Sifaka]

Yes, and the NBA doesn't want competition for viewership, especially in January and February. I'm waiting to see how long it will be before they attempt to "buy out" that potential competition.

With full, sincere respect, I disagree. I think the market, defined as the fanbase, for the two leagues has little overlap. Where we may find common ground is IN the willingness of sports media to pay the W more. That may have some small effect on what they have available to pay the NBA..

 

[azfan]

I agree. As you probably know, the NBA is basically the manager/owner of the WNBA while controlling about 60% of it. And they'll milk every last dollar out of it.

The WNBA Labor Dispute Is Just Another Choice Made by the NBA - The Sling

I agree. It's unclear whether the players received a percentage of the gross or net. I suspect the owners were able to impose revenue sharing based on that which as you indicate allows the owners to completely control how much the players will receive

 

[BobbyJ]

With full, sincere respect, I disagree. I think the market, defined as the fanbase, for the two leagues has little overlap. Where we may find common ground is IN the willingness of sports media to pay the W more. That may have some small effect on what they have available to pay the WNBA.

Yes, I agree on the separate fan bases. I meant buy it out to control and maximize/reap profits from that fan base, not get rid of it. I should have called it competition for potential profits.

 

[oldude]

Yes, I agree on the separate fan bases. I meant buy it out to control and maximize/reap profits from that fan base, not get rid of it. I should have called it competition for potential profits.

The opportunity for the current owners of Unrivaled to get paid for their share in the league is intriguing. It’s a pretty diverse group with Hollywood personalities, other sports stars like Coco Gauff & Megan Rapinoe, players like Stewie, Pheesa and Paige, as well as college coaches like Geno & Dawn. The current valuation of Unrivaled is estimated at $340 million.

 

[Bigboote]

I agree. It's unclear whether the players received a percentage of the gross or net. I suspect the owners were able to impose revenue sharing based on that which as you indicate allows the owners to completely control how much the players will receive

Not only that, is the WNBA able to define gross or net however they g-ddam please? And the pith of the matter, have they opened the books to the Players' Association? I'll be truly shocked if that is revealed to be the case. I'm still skeptical how they were "losing money" hand-over-fist every single year then mysteriously when they were in the midst of a negotiation with the union, they suddenly had a profit of which they could distribute a small percentage to the players.

 

[NycUcWbbFan]

You have to wonder if Unrivaled survives this new contract in the W. I have no doubt that the ownership in the W hope the new contract kills the 3x3 league.

Unrivaled is meant &1 to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

• Like a pre-Wimbledon grass court event but in a different non-WNBA competing format that allows minimization of overhead expenses and maximum flexibility.
• Unrivaled has also shown that it is a far more effective player and sports marketer than the WNBA.
• &1: Women’s basketball revolutionized: How Unrivaled will change everything | SB Nation
• &1: More here.

&1 Of course, there might be a little teensy bit less financial necessity incentive (with higher WNBA salaries) to join Unrivaled. But the other considerations still make it very worthwhile for players to consider, considering the time commitment (WNBA + Unrivaled) < NBA.

 

[Sifaka]

Unrivaled is meant &1 to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

Not sure what &1 is meant to signify, but that statement is otherwise totally wrong. Who are the players in the Unrivaled league?
They are NOT rookies or scrubs needing development.
The ARE already stars in the W.

Unrivaled is not a minor league triple A equivalent.

Here is a sample of Unrivaled rosters with WNBA player affiliations.

 

[NycUcWbbFan]

Not sure what &1 is meant to signify, but that statement is otherwise totally wrong. Who are the players in the Unrivaled league?
They are NOT rookies or scrubs needing development.
The ARE already stars in the W.

Unrivaled is not a minor league triple A equivalent.

Here is a sample of Unrivaled rosters with WNBA player affiliations.


View attachment 118292

&1 is a (foot)note, below and in original post.

• And by “development”, it’s offseason player development.
• NBA players each can pay for their specialized training. WNBA players typically cannot.
• I know “development” is also used in the context of “developmental” (i.e. B-league). That is not what I meant.

&1: Women’s basketball revolutionized: How Unrivaled will change everything | SB Nation

 

[Sifaka]

&1 is a (foot)note, below and in original post.

• And by “development”, it’s offseason player development.
• NBA players each can pay for their specialized training. WNBA players typically cannot.
• I know “development” is also used in the context of “developmental” (i.e. B-league). That is not what I meant.

&1: Women’s basketball revolutionized: How Unrivaled will change everything | SB Nation

View attachment 118293

Thanks for the explanation.

Unrivaled is meant to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

That is still absolutely missing the point. It assumes, wrongly, that Unrivaled exists to support the WNBA. It exists to serves its players and equity owners.

Development? Sure. Development to serve another league? No. Nowhere in the quoted material you present does it state that the WNBA us the intended beneficiary of player development. If that were central to the mission of Unrivaled one would expect Mr. Bazzell to say so.


Again-Unrivaled is meant &1 to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

The Unrivaled players are already stars in the W. At the time Unrivaled began, there was a real possibility that a new CBA would not be negotiated, that there would be a strike or a lockout.
The assumption that development was targeted at players in the W doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

 

[ucbart]

I think that Unrivaled understands consumer marketing much more than the W. They put a good product on display. The seasons don’t overlap. The players have a personal financial stake in the success of the league. All of that bodes well.

The prior need to go broad in the W off-season is now much reduced, but Unrivaled may still have enough to attract top players.

Yes, but with FAR less overall cost since the games are in one arena and the players are all in one location; so there is no travel. So, they can understand marketing and put more $$ into it since the two biggest costs on W teams are location and travel, or at least I think those are probably the two

 

[NycUcWbbFan]

Thanks for the explanation.

That is still absolutely missing the point. It assumes, wrongly, that Unrivaled exists to support the WNBA. It exists to serves its players and equity owners.

Development? Sure. Development to serve another league? No. Nowhere in the quoted material you present does it state that the WNBA us the intended beneficiary of player development. If that were central to the mission of Unrivaled one would expect Mr. Bazzell to say so.


Again-Unrivaled is meant &1 to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

The Unrivaled players are already stars in the W. At the time Unrivaled began, there was a real possibility that a new CBA would not be negotiated, that there would be a strike or a lockout.
The assumption that development was targeted at players in the W doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

Below, from same article &1 above.

• Player-owners’ participation is proof-positive that they gove their imprimatur to Unrivaled’s raison-d’etre (which was also in reaction to the WNBA’s prioritization rules).
• Other owners presumably know what they are getting into with the market realities at the time of their investment. Things could change, of course.
• Unrivaled approached the WNBA to be an equity owner and were rebuffed.
• Unrivaled does seem to be a pointed counterexample to how things could be in the WNBA.

 

[BobbyJ]

Yes, but with FAR less overall cost since the games are in one arena and the players are all in one location; so there is no travel. So, they can understand marketing and put more $$ into it since the two biggest costs on W teams are location and travel, or at least I think those are probably the two

The Unrivaled league pays for all of the player's housing, rental cars, and personal chefs for the two months of the schedule in addition to their 6 figure salaries that average $220K.

 

[Sifaka]

Yes, but with FAR less overall cost since the games are in one arena and the players are all in one location; so there is no travel. So, they can understand marketing and put more $$ into it since the two biggest costs on W teams are location and travel, or at least I think those are probably the two

(1) They have lower overheads than the W? Very likely.
(2) the 2 biggest costs you mention were for the previous CBA. With the new one, player compensation and housing may move up to the top spot in the P&L list of expenses. I hope so! 😀

 

[Sifaka]

Below, from same article &1 above.

• Player-owners’ participation is proof-positive that they gove their imprimatur to Unrivaled’s raison-d’etre (which was also in reaction to the WNBA’s prioritization rules).
• Other owners presumably know what they are getting into with the market realities at the time of their investment. Things could change, of course.
• Unrivaled approached the WNBA to be an equity owner and were rebuffed.
• Unrivaled does seem to be a pointed counterexample to how things could be in the WNBA.

View attachment 118295

Uhhh….that’s nice. I see not a single word to support the assertion that the development efforts are intended to benefit the W. If the highlighted text is meant to imply such an objective, it fails badly. Not being in competition is very far from aiming to benefit.
Let’s just say we disagree on this point?

🤝

 

[oldude]

Yes, but with FAR less overall cost since the games are in one arena and the players are all in one location; so there is no travel. So, they can understand marketing and put more $$ into it since the two biggest costs on W teams are location and travel, or at least I think those are probably the two

Hold on there. The 2 biggest paydays for Unrivaled were when they took the show on the road to Philadelphia & Brooklyn before sold out arenas holding 18-20,000 fans. If Unrivaled is back next year, I have no doubt the league will set up additional barnstorming dates in places like Chicago, LA, Detroit, etc.

 

[NycUcWbbFan]

Uhhh….that’s nice. I see not a single word to support the assertion that the development efforts are intended to benefit the W. If the highlighted text is meant to imply such an objective, it fails badly. Not being in competition is very far from aiming to benefit.
Let’s just say we disagree on this point?

🤝

I’ll explicitly summarize the arguments (sorry not an emoji person (smiley face)):

• Unrivaled came into being as a player innovation for the income hit due to the WNBA’s prioritization rules.
• Unrivaled’s footprint (scheduling, marketing) meshes well with the WNBA and the rising tide of women’s basketball.
• Unrivaled’s full-court 3x3 is non-competitive with the WNBA’s 5x5 format.
• Unrivaled’s required skill sets (third paragraph from the bottom in above pic) is symbiotic to the skill sets that could make better players for the WNBA season.
• Unrivaled employs player development professionals and have training facilities that players can use for their offseason player development regimen at the now new innovation that it is no-cost to WNBA players.
• Unrivaled’s business decisions have resulted in top $ to the very top WNBA players so that (WNBA + Unrivaled) is better for many reasons over foregoing the WNBA and just playing overseas (Diana’s one year off from the WNBA is a prior example).

 

[Sifaka]

I’ll explicitly summarize the arguments (sorry not an emoji person (smiley face)):

• Unrivaled came into being as a player innovation for the income hit due to the WNBA’s prioritization rules.
• Unrivaled’s footprint (scheduling, marketing) meshes well with the WNBA and the rising tide of women’s basketball.
• Unrivaled’s full-court 3x3 is non-competitive with the WNBA’s 5x5 format.
• Unrivaled’s required skill sets (third paragraph from the bottom in above pic) is symbiotic to the skill sets that could make better players for the WNBA season.
• Unrivaled employs player development professionals and have training facilities that players can use for their offseason player development regimen at the now new innovation that it is no-cost to WNBA players.
• Unrivaled’s business decisions have resulted in top $ to the very top WNBA players so that (WNBA + Unrivaled) is better for many reasons over foregoing the WNBA and just playing overseas (Diana’s one year off from the WNBA is a prior example).

Since you insist, let us examine each of the points to determine if they show intent, on the part of Unrivaled, to directly benefit the WNBA.

1.

• Unrivaled came into being as a player innovation for the income hit due to the WNBA’s prioritization rules. That’s nice, but it does NOTHING to support the W. Irrelevant.
• 
  
• Unrivaled’s footprint (scheduling, marketing) meshes well with the WNBA and the rising tide of women’s basketball.Irrelevant. That is a mushy PR style statement. It “meshes well” only in that the schedules do not overlap. The statement shows no intent to benefit the W. Further, it omits any reference to development.
• Unrivaled’s full-court 3x3 is non-competitive with the WNBA’s 5x5 format. Here we go again. Tennis is non-competitive with Monopoly. That doesn’t mean either game attempts to benefit or support the other. Irrelevant
• Unrivaled’s required skill sets (third paragraph from the bottom in above pic) is symbiotic to the skill sets that could make better players for the WNBA season. So what! Basketball skills developed in one context are apt to be useful in ALL other basketball contexts. If a 3x3 player develops a better 3 pt. shot, that will be an asset in Turkey, Spain, Australia and also in the W. 3x3 is not the sane game as 5x5, so skill development focus is not the same, despite obvious similarities. What is clearly lacking in the statement above is intent to benefit the W.
• That there may be some coincidental benefit is obvious.
• Unrivaled employs player development professionals and have training facilities that players can use for their offseason player development regimen at the now new innovation that it is no-cost to WNBA players. Stretching are we? These development facilities and staff are intended to benefit the players. They are therefore intended to benefit Unrivaled. They are at no cost to Unrivaled players.
• If the WNBA derives some ancillary benefit, that is not because Unrivaled created a development program in order to help the W.
• Unrivaled’s business decisions have resulted in top $ to the very top WNBA players so that (WNBA + Unrivaled) is better for many reasons over foregoing the WNBA and just playing overseas. I will not invoke the sobriquet Captain Obvious despite the overwhelming stimulus to do so.
• Nothing, not a single phoneme, in the sentence above shows any indication whatsopluckingever of intent on the part of the Unrivaled equity owners and/or players to benefit the W. To call it ‘Irrelevant' would be generous.

This is all, putting it kindly, thin gruel. It is, I happily confess, better than Palinesque Word Salad. But so are the scripts of afternoon soap operas.

None of it supports the false assertion that the intended beneficiary of Unrivaled's plans or actions is the WNBA.

I'm out. Please feel free to have the uncontested bunny. 😇

 

[JoePgh]

Since you insist, let us examine each of the points to determine if they show intent, on the part of Unrivaled, to directly benefit the WNBA.

1.

• Unrivaled came into being as a player innovation for the income hit due to the WNBA’s prioritization rules. That’s nice, but it does NOTHING to support the W. Irrelevant.
• 
  
• Unrivaled’s footprint (scheduling, marketing) meshes well with the WNBA and the rising tide of women’s basketball.Irrelevant. That is a mushy PR style statement. It “meshes well” only in that the schedules do not overlap. The statement shows no intent to benefit the W. Further, it omits any reference to development.
• Unrivaled’s full-court 3x3 is non-competitive with the WNBA’s 5x5 format. Here we go again. Tennis is non-competitive with Monopoly. That doesn’t mean either game attempts to benefit or support the other. Irrelevant
• Unrivaled’s required skill sets (third paragraph from the bottom in above pic) is symbiotic to the skill sets that could make better players for the WNBA season. So what! Basketball skills developed in one context are apt to be useful in ALL other basketball contexts. If a 3x3 player develops a better 3 pt. shot, that will be an asset in Turkey, Spain, Australia and also in the W. 3x3 is not the sane game as 5x5, so skill development focus is not the same, despite obvious similarities. What is clearly lacking in the statement above is intent to benefit the W.
• That there may be some coincidental benefit is obvious.
• Unrivaled employs player development professionals and have training facilities that players can use for their offseason player development regimen at the now new innovation that it is no-cost to WNBA players. Stretching are we? These development facilities and staff are intended to benefit the players. They are therefore intended to benefit Unrivaled. They are at no cost to Unrivaled players.
• If the WNBA derives some ancillary benefit, that is not because Unrivaled created a development program in order to help the W.
• Unrivaled’s business decisions have resulted in top $ to the very top WNBA players so that (WNBA + Unrivaled) is better for many reasons over foregoing the WNBA and just playing overseas. I will not invoke the sobriquet Captain Obvious despite the overwhelming stimulus to do so.
• Nothing, not a single phoneme, in the sentence above shows any indication whatsopluckingever of intent on the part of the Unrivaled equity owners and/or players to benefit the W. To call it ‘Irrelevant' would be generous.

This is all, putting it kindly, thin gruel. It is, I happily confess, better than Palinesque Word Salad. But so are the scripts of afternoon soap operas.

None of it supports the false assertion that the intended beneficiary of Unrivaled's plans or actions is the WNBA.

I'm out. Please feel free to have the uncontested bunny. 😇

You are putting all of your emphasis on "intent", as opposed to "effect". Regardless of what the intent of the Unrivaled investors or players is or was, it is likely that the effect is to allow the players to develop their skills in a way which will benefit their WNBA careers. Moreover, they can do this without going overseas or otherwise disrupting their lives with respect to child care, housing, and similar issues.

I think the "intent" of the players who were the driving force behind the creation of Unrivaled was to make overseas winter play unnecessary by replacing the most of income that it provides, but also affording more palatable lifestyle choices for them. It is a great deal for the players as long as it lasts. The question is whether it is financially viable in the long run for investors. I am not aware of any data yet that shows the financial performance (or lack thereof) of Unrivaled in its first year, but that will be the critical question in the next few months.

 

[Sifaka]

You are putting all of your emphasis on "intent", as opposed to "effect". Regardless of what the intent of the Unrivaled investors or players is or was, it is likely that the effect is to allow the players to develop their skills in a way which will benefit their WNBA careers. Moreover, they can do this without going overseas or otherwise disrupting their lives with respect to child care, housing, and similar issues.

I think the "intent" of the players who were the driving force behind the creation of Unrivaled was to make overseas winter play unnecessary by replacing the most of income that it provides, but also affording more palatable lifestyle choices for them. It is a great deal for the players as long as it lasts. The question is whether it is financially viable in the long run for investors. I am not aware of any data yet that shows the financial performance (or lack thereof) of Unrivaled in its first year, but that will be the critical question in the next few months.

I am happy to agree with everything you have written. Here is why I put such strong emphasis on intent, I was debunking a demonstrably false assertion.

Unrivaled is meant &1 to be a development platform (that pays) to prepare for the WNBA:

The meaning of the quote is clear, and far from your own accurate description of what Unrivaled was meant to be.

That development during Unrivaled seasons can also help performance by players during Unrivaled's off season, the W's season, is not in dispute. But that isn’t why Unrivaled came into being.

What gets lost in the discussion is that the W, by forcing players to choose between playing a full season abroad for decent money or playing in the W, created an opportunity for Unrivaled.

 

[Boreifs]

There is a parallel to the WNBA and Unrivaled in the world of classical music. The Lyric Opera of Chicago had a season that existed only in the Fall and Winter. As a result, the orchestra formed an ensemble with only a spring season to insure income in those dark months. In addition, many of them also played in Grant Park, which was active only during the summer. As a result, the majority of musicians essentially had full-time work while holding three different jobs. This may seem a stretch, but these musicians are world class performers with the expectation that every performance is essentially perfect, not unlike the performance standards of the WNBA.

 

[Dogdude]

There is a parallel to the WNBA and Unrivaled in the world of classical music. The Lyric Opera of Chicago had a season that existed only in the Fall and Winter. As a result, the orchestra formed an ensemble with only a spring season to insure income in those dark months. In addition, many of them also played in Grant Park, which was active only during the summer. As a result, the majority of musicians essentially had full-time work while holding three different jobs. This may seem a stretch, but these musicians are world class performers with the expectation that every performance is essentially perfect, not unlike the performance standards of the WNBA.

As the husband of a concertmaster, being a musician is exactly like a pro athlete... practice is every day for at least two hours, and then there's the administrative stuff, all for a few two-hour performances that indeed must be "perfect." But like a game, perfection never really happens. But as mistakes do happen, one has to forget all about it the second it's over and move on to the next flurry of notes without a second thought.

As for the income conflict, I never thought there was any with Unrivaled. Totally different games and presentation. But Unrivaled could have stolen some market share in terms of sponsorship had the strike happened and the season lost. Viewership? Not so sure. In the end, I'm just glad the season will be starting.