Wilner (SJ Mercury News) - USC and UCLA planning to leave for B1G

[noeynox]

Since I am in this neck of wood, there are a lot of nervousness around Stanford and UC Berkeley.

I believe B1G will wait for ND to make a decision before pulling the trigger on Oregon and Washington. B1G could pair ND with Stanford or Florida State. I really believe B1G wants in on the Florida market, and I hope they can pull Florida State from the ACC vs. dragging this out for years.

Here is a good article summarizing the perspective from Cal: Cal must prioritize following USC and UCLA into the Big Ten

USF is available.

 

[ZooCougar]

Current 16 teams, add:

Oregon/Washington
UNC/Virginia
FSU/UConn
Stanford/ND

Only way I see UConn ending up in the Big Ten.

We’re not getting into the Big Ten.

 

[CL82]

Really? That’s all it takes? Somebody get on the phone to the big 10!

 

[Kolumbo]

Big 12 and PAC 12 should drop the hammer and outright merge. It becomes a 22 program conference, or 18 if it turns away the 4 newbies, with the most extensive footprint. The ACC will probably stand pat to protect its GOR but it too should expand right now to get to 20 with the best programs available from independents and AAC. Otherwise it would consider merging with the Big 12 to get to 22 or 26.

The two nuclear powers are going to get whatever programs they are going to get, eventually. Regardless of what the other conferences do. The Big 12/PAC 12/ACC should do what they can right now to try to keep themselves as the two bridesmaids/AAA affiliates/P-lite. Without an outright merger, the pillaging process just gets drawn out.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Big 12 and PAC 12 should drop the hammer and outright merge. It becomes a 22 program conference, or 18 if it turns away the 4 newbies, with the most extensive footprint. The ACC will probably stand pat to protect its GOR but it too should expand right now to get to 20 with the best programs available from independents and AAC. Otherwise it would consider merging with the Big 12 to get to 22 or 26.

The two nuclear powers are going to get whatever programs they are going to get, eventually. Regardless of what the other conferences do. The Big 12/PAC 12/ACC should do what they can right now to try to keep themselves as the two bridesmaids/AAA affiliates/P-lite. Without an outright merger, the pillaging process just gets drawn out.

Again, a game playing strategy is showing up on this thread.

Most here believing a two league top tier of B1G and SEC.

Between PAC12, Big12 and ACC it's a three to make two second tier. So, figure out alliances.

Do Pac12 and Big12 merge and leave ACC as the weak 5th conference most vulnerable for next round, or do ACC and Big12 merge and leave Pac12 on an island by itself? Regardless seems like Big12 is in better shape than ACC or Pac12 because Big12 butts up against either of the remaining two. I don't see a Pac12/ACC alliance isolating Big12.

 

[Kolumbo]

Staples: How would a school challenge a grant of rights? We asked a lawyer

There are four ways to challenge such a deal. Most of them involve a lot of money and patience.

theathletic.com

"For something to be a contract, it must have three components: an offer, an acceptance and consideration.

"In the grant of rights, the school has given the conference something of value — its media rights. But what has the conference given the school? It’s not the money for those media rights. That comes from one or several networks based on the terms of the conference’s deal with the network(s). The school’s attorneys could argue that an entirely separate contract covers that consideration."

I am sure someone somewhere could argue that the contract should be void because of any number of reasons:

Substantive unconscionability
Unconscionability in contracts can be substantive or procedural. Substantive unconscionability in contracts is when the terms of a contract are harsh, unfair, excessively oppressive, and unduly one-sided. Substantive unconscionability will make a contract invalid, and it can be tricky to determine.

Procedural unconscionability
Unlike substantive unconscionability that deals with the terms of the contract, procedural unconscionability focuses on the circumstances in which the contract was made. It can arise when contract negotiation is unfair to a party because of unequal bargaining power, lack of meaningful choice, or a wide knowledge gap on the subject matter.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

"For something to be a contract, it must have three components: an offer, an acceptance and consideration.

"In the grant of rights, the school has given the conference something of value — its media rights. But what has the conference given the school? It’s not the money for those media rights. That comes from one or several networks based on the terms of the conference’s deal with the network(s). The school’s attorneys could argue that an entirely separate contract covers that consideration."

I am sure someone somewhere could argue that the contract should be void because of any number of reasons:

Substantive unconscionability
Unconscionability in contracts can be substantive or procedural. Substantive unconscionability in contracts is when the terms of a contract are harsh, unfair, excessively oppressive, and unduly one-sided. Substantive unconscionability will make a contract invalid, and it can be tricky to determine.

Procedural unconscionability
Unlike substantive unconscionability that deals with the terms of the contract, procedural unconscionability focuses on the circumstances in which the contract was made. It can arise when contract negotiation is unfair to a party because of unequal bargaining power, lack of meaningful choice, or a wide knowledge gap on the subject matter.

No shot at universities arguing either of those things. They are billion dollar organizations with top legal representation, and they are years into the agreement. They are just realizing this is a problem now? Finally, their future plans (i.e. making hundreds of millions in a new league) are relevant to both points. Clemson would not make a very sympathetic plaintiff.

The GoR is a sale contract. The legal precedent of a judge or jury overturning a sale contract because the seller found a better buyer years later would be huge and damaging to our economy. Even if there was some statutory out, it would take five years to a decade to litigate.

Unless there is a previously undisclosed buyout in the GoR, that deal is done. No way to undo it.

 

[TRest]

Again, a game playing strategy is showing up on this thread.

Most here believing a two league top tier of B1G and SEC.

Between PAC12, Big12 and ACC it's a three to make two second tier. So, figure out alliances.

Do Pac12 and Big12 merge and leave ACC as the weak 5th conference most vulnerable for next round, or do ACC and Big12 merge and leave Pac12 on an island by itself? Regardless seems like Big12 is in better shape than ACC or Pac12 because Big12 butts up against either of the remaining two. I don't see a Pac12/ACC alliance isolating Big12.

Without knowing for sure, I think B12 and P12 both have tv contract negotiations coming up and that will dictate what leftovers go where.

 

[Kolumbo]

No shot at universities arguing either of those things. They are billion dollar organizations with top legal representation, and they are years into the agreement. They are just realizing this is a problem now? Finally, their future plans (i.e. making hundreds of millions in a new league) are relevant to both points. Clemson would not make a very sympathetic plaintiff.

The GoR is a sale contract. The legal precedent of a judge or jury overturning a sale contract because the seller found a better buyer years later would be huge and damaging to our economy. Even if there was some statutory out, it would take five years to a decade to litigate.

Unless there is a previously undisclosed buyout in the GoR, that deal is done. No way to undo it.

You want to argue that a conference should collect millions and millions of dollars based on a program performing in a different conference. Doesn't seem too difficult to prove that contract should be void. I'm sure they'll give it a shot given the amount of dollars at stake. Sellers find better buyers all the time. Rarely do you have to continue to sell to a buyer who no longer utilizes your services.

 

[HuskyDogArt]

Kaboom

When I first heard that UCLA and USC were going to the B1G, I thought someone turn the calendar back to April 1st.

I wonder who'll be the victims this time the MWC, I think Pac 10 could pick up BSU and SMU

What will ND do? What about the Big12... We live in an interesting time...

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You want to argue that a conference should collect millions and millions of dollars based on a program performing in a different conference. Doesn't seem too difficult to prove that contract should be void. I'm sure they'll give it a shot given the amount of dollars at stake. Sellers find better buyers all the time. Rarely do you have to continue to sell to a buyer who no longer utilizes your services.

WOW! You have found a way out of thousands of media and content sale agreements. Heck, with a few tweaks, this logic could reverse every purchase and sale agreement ever signed in history. You and Zoo will get your own wings in law schools for your legal brilliance. Now every seller in the world, and presumably every buyer, can walk away from any agreement they want any time they want, even years after the agreement was signed. Nice work.

Edit: One of you should reach out to the successors of the Lenape Native American tribe. They can get Manhattan back.

 

[freescooter]

No shot at universities arguing either of those things. They are billion dollar organizations with top legal representation, and they are years into the agreement. They are just realizing this is a problem now? Finally, their future plans (i.e. making hundreds of millions in a new league) are relevant to both points. Clemson would not make a very sympathetic plaintiff.

The GoR is a sale contract. The legal precedent of a judge or jury overturning a sale contract because the seller found a better buyer years later would be huge and damaging to our economy. Even if there was some statutory out, it would take five years to a decade to litigate.

Unless there is a previously undisclosed buyout in the GoR, that deal is done. No way to undo it.

All you really need is a sympathetic judge, not a sympathetic plaintiff. Heck West Virginia went to court in West Virginia to get out of the Big East even though the contract said it had to be done in court in Providence, I believe. The West Virginia court made up some justification, I think that it involved a West Virginia state agency or something like that, so they had jurisdiction despite the contract, and in the end there was a negotiated settlement. Clemson goes to court in South Carolina, you think they can’t find a judge is Clemson ‘85 and who has season tickets?

I don’t think it will be easy, and Clemson won’t get to leave for free, but at some point it is better for both sides to work out a settlement than it is to stay together. Once a school decides to leave a conference, it really isn’t in anyones interest for them to hang around. And the problem can be solved by money. The only real argument is how big the check is and who rights it.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

All you really need is a sympathetic judge, not a sympathetic plaintiff. Heck West Virginia went to court in West Virginia to get out of the Big East even though the contract said it had to be done in court in Providence, I believe. The West Virginia court made up some justification, I think that it involved a West Virginia state agency or something like that, so they had jurisdiction despite the contract, and in the end there was a negotiated settlement. Clemson goes to court in South Carolina, you think they can’t find a judge is Clemson ‘85 and who has season tickets?

I don’t think it will be easy, and Clemson won’t get to leave for free, but at some point it is better for both sides to work out a settlement than it is to stay together. Once a school decides to leave a conference, it really isn’t in anyones interest for them to hang around. And the problem can be solved by money. The only real argument is how big the check is and who rights it.

If contracts didn't matter, do you think useless athletic programs like Indiana, Minnesota, Rutgers, Mississippi State, Mississippi and Arkansas would be on the inside right now? Contracts don't matter, so why don't the core Big 10 and SEC schools just kick out the detritus and replace them with better programs?

 

[HuskyDogArt]

USF is available.

Here is the the Big12 or the ACC might grab them. Going to hurt the AAC...Temple should get out before it hurts them...

 

[SU1968]

You want to argue that a conference should collect millions and millions of dollars based on a program performing in a different conference. Doesn't seem too difficult to prove that contract should be void. I'm sure they'll give it a shot given the amount of dollars at stake. Sellers find better buyers all the time. Rarely do you have to continue to sell to a buyer who no longer utilizes your services.

Once a school signed the GOR, it no longer owns the services, the conference does. That's the problem.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Once a school signed the GOR, it no longer owns the services, the conference does. That's the problem.

Kolombo and Zoo are the kind of people that will eat half a big mac and then try to get their money back by claiming it didn’t taste that good.

 

[Kolumbo]

Kolombo and Zoo are the kind of people that will eat half a big mac and then try to get their money back by claiming it didn’t taste that good.

Damn straight I will. The law isn't always fair and lawyers can weasle their way around anything. Haven't you ever heard that contracts are made to be broken? Happens every day.

 

[ZooCougar]

Kolombo and Zoo are the kind of people that will eat half a big mac and then try to get their money back by claiming it didn’t taste that good.

You’d sue your best friend and then openly wonder why he doesn’t want to hang out with you anymore.

SU, Wake, Pitt, BCU etc. don’t want to be involved in a lawsuit against ND, UNC, FSU etc.

This will all get worked out of court.

 

[freescooter]

If contracts didn't matter, do you think useless athletic programs like Indiana, Minnesota, Rutgers, Mississippi State, Mississippi and Arkansas would be on the inside right now? Contracts don't matter, so why don't the core Big 10 and SEC schools just kick out the detritus and replace them with better programs?

I never said contracts don’t matter. I just said it’s hard to enforce specfic performance when the problem can be solved by money. And it really isn’t in the ACC’s interest to not take money and get on with life once somebody decides they want to leave. Anyone who leaves will pay something more than zero, which they will claim because the league or the network didn’t live up to its end of the deal somehow, and something less than the $350 million or whatever that the league claims they owe for leaving the contract early. It will involve a combination of payments, guaranteed games, and not getting shares of various payments due most likely. Because in the end, neither side wants to test this in court. If the league wins they are stuck with a member who wants out and likely will leave at some point, but can constantly muck up the works for everyone else. If the member wins, it will be Katy bar the door with people trying to go.

 

[huskypantz]

I see this falling into 3 tiers. The big 2, the middle two (b12/pac12/acc mix) and the g-whatever’s left. I do think there will be an east coast conference and a west coast conference in that middle tier and pray we’re in the east.

 

[huskymedic]

LOL… it’s about the exposure:

 

[NH Husky]

If ACC wants to survive and thrive they need to make the bold move now. Grab 5 best from B12 and us. The ball it like a .
Get your seat at the table

 

[Kolumbo]

Once a school signed the GOR, it no longer owns the services, the conference does. That's the problem.

Each program owns it's own services. The problem is the gor says the conference owns the television rights. That is the problem. I'm not saying the contract can be void, I'm saying it very well could be void because it is outright unfair. We'll see.

 

[B1GEast]

What I find strange in all of this is that USC and UCLA reached out to the Ten and not the other way around.

You can't blame them I guess.

 

[Rufus]

ESPN and FOX will want the elite programs in the SEC and B1G playing each other as often as possible. I wonder how scheduling will work to accommodate that?

Assuming Notre Dame and Oregon are added to the B1G…..

Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
USC
Notre Dame
Oregon
Michigan State
Wisconsin
Nebraska (if/when they turn things around)
UCLA (if/when they turn things around)

Those would be the “Big Ten” football programs of the B1G.