Why did uconn wait so long to join Div1 football? | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Why did uconn wait so long to join Div1 football?

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Waquoit said:
IIRC, he didn't get all that much that he didn't have before. Some added infrastucture investment from the state and some money from the league. Kraft paid for the actual construction of the stadium. Rowland didn't have the project locked down. They couldn't guarentee the thing would be ready for the opening date, that's why the deal fell apart. Relocating the steam plant was a big factor.
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That's the way I remember it, except that Rowland tried to lock it down but the legislature dragging their feet is what really killed it.
 
Jimmy Serrano said:
How in the world do you figure that?
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The Dept. would have been too complex/big for him to oversee. It would have demanded someone like a Perkins or Jurich to drive the ship full time. We would not have been a stepping stone.
 
Carl Spackler said:
The reality is that UCONN was extended a frigging silver spoon in a gold case, with the opportunity to upgrade into a conference that was included in the newly formed BCS-AQ formula in 1998. No school in the entire country (other than Villanova) was given the same opportunity - until the Big East did it again, for USF, Cincinnati, and Louisville.

That opportunity was extended in 1997, before the creation of the BCS, and it's a real possibility that UCONN never gets the upgrade invite had the BCS and the money around it already been formed in 1997,and the conference would have disintegrated in 1996, as it almost did many times.

The other reality, is that the leadership of the Big East, and the basketball schools at the time, including UCONN, didn't really appreciate how incredible the opportunity was (aside basically from Lew Perkins, and handful of other folks). The upgrade, at UCONN, by the vast majority of UCONN people, right up until the Big East conference was finally killed, was always looked at as a way to "save and protect" the basketball programs. That's how Lew was able to sell it. IF leadership across the board, had understood just how valueable football really is, things would have moved much quicker than they did with the upgrade, and basketball would never have entered the discussion.

It is what it is. The stadium was designed to built on campus, and was very close to ground breaking construction on campus before local politics got is shut down, and if not for John Rowland's activism to get the East Hartford site back to life in the state legislature...the upgrade goes dead as of 2001, and we most likely playing football in the CAA now.
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Good point. Always thought that's why Perkins left UCONN.
 
John said:
I don't think Kraft ever had any intention of coming to CT. He played Rowland to get Massachusetts to pony up.
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Rowland was in on it. The fake paper signing and all.

Not a finger was lifted to prepare for any of the work that south end stadium site would have required in the 24 month time frame being thrown around.
 
Before 1978 (I think was the correct date, might have been 76 or 77) there was much less of a hard line between "big time" and non-big time football. The NCAA classified teams as University Division and College Division. UConn was College Division, but the line was crossed a fair amount and was sort of fuzzy at the margins. As I noted (and by the way coachcap is wrong, UConn did consider an upgrade in the mid-70s) what eventually made up the bulk of the Patriot League, Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Laffayette, Bucknell, as well as the Ivy league were all University Division and were originally included in Division 1A when it was first established. That was the group of schools UConn hoped to join. They mostly played each other and the Ivies but it wasn't too surprising to see Colgate, for example, show up on Penn State's schedule (1980) or Syracuse's schedule (1982). They regularly played Rutgers. William & Mary, another one of those borderline programs regularly played a couple of ACC opponents, Pitt, Navy, Army, along with its traditional rivals like James Madison and Richmond. The reclassification went into effect in 1981 and all those programs ended up being moved to 1AA. That was really when the hard and fast line went into effect.
 
freescooter said:
Before 1978 (I think was the correct date, might have been 76 or 77) there was much less of a hard line between "big time" and non-big time football. The NCAA classified teams as University Division and College Division. UConn was College Division, but the line was crossed a fair amount and was sort of fuzzy at the margins. As I noted (and by the way coachcap is wrong, UConn did consider an upgrade in the mid-70s) what eventually made up the bulk of the Patriot League, Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Laffayette, Bucknell, as well as the Ivy league were all University Division and were originally included in Division 1A when it was first established. That was the group of schools UConn hoped to join. They mostly played each other and the Ivies but it wasn't too surprising to see Colgate, for example, show up on Penn State's schedule (1980) or Syracuse's schedule (1982). They regularly played Rutgers. William & Mary, another one of those borderline programs regularly played a couple of ACC opponents, Pitt, Navy, Army, along with its traditional rivals like James Madison and Richmond. The reclassification went into effect in 1981 and all those programs ended up being moved to 1AA. That was really when the hard and fast line went into effect.
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This is close to my understanding. BASed on memory, haven't read up on any of this in a long time, it was the early 1970s when the "university" and "college" divisions of football ended. UCONN was considered "college" and not "university", and the division was basically based on (much like now) what schools would be invited to post season bowl games that existed at the time. There were many, many independents in college football in what became division 1.

I think it was 1973 when divisions 1, 2 and 3 were created, and they were all created based on football budgets really. If I remember correctly, the Yankee Conference stayed classified as division 1 (which is where I think coachcap was wrong), and Vermont was the first to bow out, unable to meet the financial football requirements. It was during this time that all of the eastern based programs you mention were trying to figure out what the hell to do with their programs, and how to schedule and align themselves.

The thought process of further dividing division 1 into 1-AA was the solution for all those programs you mention. I believe that the Yankee Conference would have remained division 1A as well as the Ivy's IF - in the creation of 1-AA football, the clause was not inserted that mandated a minimum stadium seating requirement. That statement was put in there, advocated for, by Joe Paterno. By getting that statement in, to the classification criteria for 1A football, in one quick move, Paterno eliminated the entire Ivy League (except for Yale with the Yale Bowl) and essentially every other northeastern/atlantic football program other than PSU, Syracuse and Boston College. It's not coincidence that Paterno's first national chamiponships came after being able to recruit the northeast, after 1978.

Yale hung on to 1A status until 1983 I believe, when they were basically presented with the optinos of either leaving the Ivy league, or down grading. I believe Yale was a top 25 program in 1982.

The Yankee conference stopped functioning as an all sports league at about the same time, and became a 1-AA league for football only, and Toner, as stated, was more than happy to have UCONN classified 1-AA football.

The Big EAst basketball conference was formed in 1979, as all kinds of schools in the northeast were looking for homes for their sports, and UCONN found a home there, and the Big East started all sports in I believe 1983 as well. (except football) - and infamously voted to keep Penn State out..........and begrudgingly formed a football conference in 1991, when Syracuse, BC, PItt were ready to leave and join the Metro Conference as a new Raycom sponsored 16 team conference.

BY 1993, there were only 3 independants left in college football, if I'm not mistaken, down from about 30 independants in 1989.

All happening because of what happened around the TV money around college football in 1984-85, while the Big East basketball leadership had their heads in clouds with the 1984-1985 season and final four.
 
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SubbaBub said:
Rowland was in on it. The fake paper signing and all.

Not a finger was lifted to prepare for any of the work that south end stadium site would have required in the 24 month time frame being thrown around.
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If I remember correctly, Kraft was using CT as a lever for concessions from MA.

Not sure if the shady dealings alluded to above happened, but when Rowland called the "put up or shut up" meeting/ press conference, that is when Kraft closed out the options and went full tilt in MA. I remember being on the of the REALLY pissed people that had hoped for season tickets...

I also seem to remember a mad scramble to continue the downtown stadium with a smaller footprint. At the last minute UTC/Pratt was able to donate property to make it happen, saving themselves a lot of money in taxes and looking good in the process.

God that makes me feel old.
 
RedSoloCup said:
If I remember correctly, Kraft was using CT as a lever for concessions from MA.

Not sure if the shady dealings alluded to above happened, but when Rowland called the "put up or shut up" meeting/ press conference, that is when Kraft closed out the options and went full tilt in MA. I remember being on the of the REALLY pissed people that had hoped for season tickets...

I also seem to remember a mad scramble to continue the downtown stadium with a smaller footprint. At the last minute UTC/Pratt was able to donate property to make it happen, saving themselves a lot of money in taxes and looking good in the process.

God that makes me feel old.
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It did. At the time, I would have been involved in the preparations for the site and associated infrastructure development.

There was that glossy rendering on the front page of the Courant, the "contract" signing and the sound of chirping crickets. I knew then it was a farce. Of it were real, there would have been a lot of background planning or at least spitballing an approach to get this done. If you recall, the timeframe to build was very short.

Of course it didn't stop my brother from sending in his $100 deposit. But, he was always the more gullible one.
 
Jimmy Serrano said:
This. 384 needed to be extended closer to campus. Like PSU did.
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Agreed. FWIW: I-84 was originally supposed to go Hartford to Providence. Then 384 was supposed to go to Providence. Both would have been better routes to Storrs than the current I-84 to 195, or any other route. I don't know why the highways were never extended to Providence, although it would seem that it was probably something that had to do with Rhode Island government more than CT I think.

As for the current I-84, you're not really old unless you can remember signs like this when heading north of Hartford.

First time I ever visited the Storrs campus, the road that you took north of Hartford was labeled Interstate 86, not 84.

I-86.png
 
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John said:
I don't think Kraft ever had any intention of coming to CT. He played Rowland to get Massachusetts to pony up.
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I was at the rally at the Old State House for the Pats when the "deal" was announced. My buddy looked at me and said"when pigs fly will the Pats leave the Boston area." Kraft had Rowland dreaming huge at that time and he played him really well to get exactly what he needed from MA and Foxboro. Without Rowland, Patriot Place, which is actually making the Kraft family a lot of money, would have never been built.
 
huskyrob1 said:
John Rowland did or tried to do more good things for this state than any Gov I can remember. He was basically a great gov who let power make him feel he could do nothing wrong. Did he deserve prison time? Yes, but he learned his lesson, read his bio.
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Did he update it for his latest problem? Taking money as a "consultant" to Apple Health Care while the guys' wife was actually using him as a consultant she ran for office? The Apple guy (name escapes me, he owned the Hartford ABA team once) has cut a deal with the Feds to cooperate.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Agreed. FWIW: I-84 was originally supposed to go Hartford to Providence. Then 384 was supposed to go to Providence. Both would have been better routes to Storrs than the current I-84 to 195, or any other route. I don't know why the highways were never extended to Providence, although it would seem that it was probably something that had to do with Rhode Island government more than CT I think.
View attachment 5113
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Not really. CT spent a lot of money siting the extensions through Bolton/Coventry and then to the RI border complete with intersection with the then CT Turnpike (now part of I-395) in Danielson. Biggest impediment was in the Coventry to Willi stretch. Lots of wetlands involved and the Army Corps of Engineers never gave sign off to the final route. There was also a ton of eminent domain issues with something like 85+ residential homes and farms that were needed. Severe wetalnds issues in eastern CT too but not as many homes impacted. Several alternate plans were floated but never followed thru on when it became clear that a direct interstate to RI was not all that important.
 
huskyrob1 said:
John Rowland did or tried to do more good things for this state than any Gov I can remember. He was basically a great gov who let power make him feel he could do nothing wrong. Did he deserve prison time? Yes, but he learned his lesson, read his bio.
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Learned his lesson so well, he is once again being investigated by the FBI for campaign finance violations. Yeah, I'm sure that whole born again thing wasn't just an act or anything. /sarcasm
 
huskyrob1 said:
John Rowland did or tried to do more good things for this state than any Gov I can remember. He was basically a great gov who let power make him feel he could do nothing wrong. Did he deserve prison time? Yes, but he learned his lesson, read his bio.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong. Rowland was anything but what you portray him to be.
 
You certainly can make a strong case that we MIGHT have been upgraded to a higher P5 conference if we had started D1 (begat FBS Big East) football in 1991. Those 12 years could have made a huge difference ... when parallel to our success in Hoop and growth as a University.

Why kill ourselves with the Hypothetical though?
 
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Carl Spackler said:
This is close to my understanding. BASed on memory, haven't read up on any of this in a long time, it was the early 1970s when the "university" and "college" divisions of football ended. UCONN was considered "college" and not "university", and the division was basically based on (much like now) what schools would be invited to post season bowl games that existed at the time. There were many, many independents in college football in what became division 1.

I think it was 1973 when divisions 1, 2 and 3 were created, and they were all created based on football budgets really. If I remember correctly, the Yankee Conference stayed classified as division 1 (which is where I think coachcap was wrong), and Vermont was the first to bow out, unable to meet the financial football requirements. It was during this time that all of the eastern based programs you mention were trying to figure out what the hell to do with their programs, and how to schedule and align themselves.

The thought process of further dividing division 1 into 1-AA was the solution for all those programs you mention. I believe that the Yankee Conference would have remained division 1A as well as the Ivy's IF - in the creation of 1-AA football, the clause was not inserted that mandated a minimum stadium seating requirement. That statement was put in there, advocated for, by Joe Paterno. By getting that statement in, to the classification criteria for 1A football, in one quick move, Paterno eliminated the entire Ivy League (except for Yale with the Yale Bowl) and essentially every other northeastern/atlantic football program other than PSU, Syracuse and Boston College. It's not coincidence that Paterno's first national chamiponships came after being able to recruit the northeast, after 1978.

Yale hung on to 1A status until 1983 I believe, when they were basically presented with the optinos of either leaving the Ivy league, or down grading. I believe Yale was a top 25 program in 1982.

The Yankee conference stopped functioning as an all sports league at about the same time, and became a 1-AA league for football only, and Toner, as stated, was more than happy to have UCONN classified 1-AA football.

The Big EAst basketball conference was formed in 1979, as all kinds of schools in the northeast were looking for homes for their sports, and UCONN found a home there, and the Big East started all sports in I believe 1983 as well. (except football) - and infamously voted to keep Penn State out.....and begrudgingly formed a football conference in 1991, when Syracuse, BC, PItt were ready to leave and join the Metro Conference as a new Raycom sponsored 16 team conference.

BY 1993, there were only 3 independants left in college football, if I'm not mistaken, down from about 30 independants in 1989.

All happening because of what happened around the TV money around college football in 1984-85, while the Big East basketball leadership had their heads in clouds with the 1984-1985 season and final four.
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We were classified Division II in football prior to IAA Edit; and after the College Division classification.

Again, Most of the Ivies had the stadiums to meet at the time the 30k seating requirement.
Those included Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Penn. Cornell was slightly under at 26k but could have gone to 30k I think no problem. Syracuse played there a bit when the dome was being built. The rest of the schools to meet the 30k in the east were WVU, Syracuse, Rutgers, BC, Pitt, Temple(Yes they had 30k+ with a temporary seat waiver) Army, Navy and PSU.

To Freescooter's point, we had very good OOC's back then. In'79 we opened with Army, Navy, Yale, and Rutgers( began upgrading their schedule about then). We also played a good Delaware a lot and Lehigh when they were very very good. I think we won Yankee conference championships with losing overall records in the 80's.
 
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huskyrob1 said:
That's the way I remember it, except that Rowland tried to lock it down but the legislature dragging their feet is what really killed it.
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Barbara Kennelly and a few others didn't want it.

I do believe that Kraft was never going to come to Connecticut though and just wanted Massachusetts to pony up the new stadium. Unlike Jimmy I believe that if the Patriots came to Connecticut, UCONN would be in the ACC right now.
 
06029 said:
Did he update it for his latest problem? Taking money as a "consultant" to Apple Health Care while the guys' wife was actually using him as a consultant she ran for office? The Apple guy (name escapes me, he owned the Hartford ABA team once) has cut a deal with the Feds to cooperate.
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Foley. He also owned the world team tennis team.
 
I really don't think there would be enough support to go around if the patriots came. Although we're still on the outside looking in, the patriots not coming to CT was the best thing to happen for UConn football.
 
Buzzyboy said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Rowland was anything but what you portray him to be.
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You don't know what you are talking about, plain and simple. Yes he broke the law and paid his debt to society, but he did do a lot for the state while Governor.

During the years that Rowland was in office, the state enjoyed record-breaking surpluses, state spending increased only modestly, with real spending growth rates of just over 2 percent annually between 1995 and 2003. For the first time in state history, tax rebate checks were sent to taxpayers in 1998 and again in 1999. He adhered to a spending cap voters added to the state constitution in 1992.

During those years, the state invested more than $2 billion to rebuild the University of Connecticut. Major investments were also made in the Connecticut State University andCommunity Technical College systems; enrollments as of 2004 were at an all-time high.

As of 2004, Connecticut students led the nation in performance, and the number of spaces in pre-school programs more than doubled during his term in office.

During his term, more than 455,000 acres (1,840 km2) (700+ sq. miles) of open space were preserved for future generations and state parks were revitalized. Rowland also led an aggressive clean-up and protection effort for Long Island Sound.

The Adriaen’s Landing project, the most ambitious capital city development project in decades in the state, continued to progress during Rowland's time in office. College campuses were moved, which brought thousands downtown in Hartford, Stamford, Bridgeport and Waterbury. New London's waterfront was thriving as of 2004, with a new global research facility and rebuilt pier. Theaters and museums in all major cities were revitalized, from the Palace Theater in Waterbury to the New Britain's Museum of American Art.

In 1998, Rowland implemented the HUSKY Plan (Healthcare for UninSured Kids and Youth) to provide health insurance to uninsured Connecticut children. During his tenure, the budget for the Department of Children and Families more than doubled. Rowland supported addition to government of the state’s first Child Advocate.

Rowland was a strong proponent of a tough stance against violent crime as Governor. The prison population grew rapidly during his term, which caused the state to send inmates to prisons in Virginia to deal with overcrowding. Legislative opponents of this policy such as Representative Michael Lawlor urged more rapid release of nonviolent offenders. After Rowland left office the Virginia inmates were returned to Connecticut and more criminals were paroled. This approach was criticized after the 2007 Cheshire home invasionmurders committed by two "nonviolent" inmates paroled from Connecticut prison.

Before investigation into his conduct as governor started, Rowland was viewed as a rising star in the Republican Party, and was mentioned as a future presidential or vice-presidential candidate.

Shortly after being released from prison, he was offered a job as the city of Waterbury's economic development coordinator. Rowland was appointed to this office by long time friend and associate, Mayor Michael Jarjura.
 
uconnbill said:
Barbara Kennelly and a few others didn't want it.

I do believe that Kraft was never going to come to Connecticut though and just wanted Massachusetts to pony up the new stadium. Unlike Jimmy I believe that if the Patriots came to Connecticut, UCONN would be in the ACC right now.
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Some people can't see the forest through the trees.
 
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Duncan Idaho said:
We were classified Division II in football prior to IAA Edit; and after the College Division classification.

Again, Most of the Ivies had the stadiums to meet at the time the 30k seating requirement.
Those included Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Penn. Cornell was slightly under at 26k but could have gone to 30k I think no problem. Syracuse played there a bit when the dome was being built. The rest of the schools to meet the 30k in the east were WVU, Syracuse, Rutgers, BC, Pitt, Temple(Yes they had 30k+ with a temporary seat waiver) Army, Navy and PSU.

To Freescooter's point, we had very good OOC's back then. In'79 we opened with Army, Navy, Yale, and Rutgers( began upgrading their schedule about then). We also played a good Delaware a lot and Lehigh when they were very very good. I think we won Yankee conference championships with losing overall records in the 80's.
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I stand corrected about the division II, I trust Duncan. I'm old but not that old I guess. As for the seating capacity, who qualified and who didn't, I'll go with your assessment as well. Stand corrected. But I'm pretty sure that there was an attendance clause as well, taht was worked in, and however it worked out, I think 5 or 6 out of the 8 did not meet the requirements for 1A, and the reasons were tied to the attendance/stadium capacity. I got my stories about this from some former coaches in the Ivy league - re: Paterno's involvement. Paterno from what I know, personally and second hand, regularly battled the Ivy's recruiting for players and lost regulary until they went 1-AA.

Mike Slive, the current emporer of the SEC college football world, was a young athletic director at Cornell, managing some 30 sports including division 1 football, with a budget in the millions of early 1980's dollars. I think he probably learned some lessons about it all back then.
 
06029 said:
Not really. CT spent a lot of money siting the extensions through Bolton/Coventry and then to the RI border complete with intersection with the then CT Turnpike (now part of I-395) in Danielson. Biggest impediment was in the Coventry to Willi stretch. Lots of wetlands involved and the Army Corps of Engineers never gave sign off to the final route. There was also a ton of eminent domain issues with something like 85+ residential homes and farms that were needed. Severe wetalnds issues in eastern CT too but not as many homes impacted. Several alternate plans were floated but never followed thru on when it became clear that a direct interstate to RI was not all that important.
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Thanks for the rundown. I knew that there were plans to build a highway, I didn't have any idea why it never was completed.
 
As for that guy from apple which everybody says is foley..His real name is Brian FOOEY and he's gone through bankruptcy and screwed a lot of people and has property in Newport...It doesn't surprise me for him to cut a deal, the guy is a snake oil salesman....
 
FDNY99 said:
the guys I tailgate with played at UCONN under Tom Jackson in the late 80's early 90's. All of them say that when they were recruited, they were told UCONN would be a 1A program by the time they graduated.
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This. I was at a breakfast in '88 where Turner told a group of us that within the next 4-5 years UConn would be playing the likes of Pitt, BC, and Penn St on a regular basis.
 
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FDNY99 said:
the guys I tailgate with played at UCONN under Tom Jackson in the late 80's early 90's. All of them say that when they were recruited, they were told UCONN would be a 1A program by the time they graduated.
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Toner wanted to move up from basically the day that division one split into A & AA but met far too much resistance (keep in mind what a struggle it was to get Gampel built) and wasn't skilled enough at working politicians.

One thing about the Jackson era was that every time it looked like we were building some momentum we would follow it with a step or two backwards.
 
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