Who would be the best pro in today's nba?

[Excalibur]

Rationally all of them would be much better - defense and what defenses could do in the 90s was far more aggressive than defenses are allowed to do now.

Hand checking is not allowed in the NBA. The league banned hand checking in 2004, making any physical contact between a defender's hands and an offensive player a foul. They added defensive 3 second rule and zone.

I would think Jordan would avg 50 a game in today's NBA.

As much as the hand checking rules now favor the offensive player, the illegal defense rules in the 80's and 90's made a great offensive player nearly impossible to stop. The bigger difference is in what players are allowed to do with the ball and their feet now. If Jordan could shoot a step back with 2.5 steps to create space while carrying the ball like now he'd be unguardable. Add in the foul for being in a shooter's landing area and trying to stay with him would be high comedy.

 

[Mik]

Drexler was a better athlete than Havlicek but that doesn't necessarily translate to being a better basketball player.

I wish some of the younger people in this board could have seen the game in the late 1960's through mid 1970's. There was a lot more skill and they ran far better offense than what we see today.

I'm a Celtics fan, and no disrespect to Havlicek, who was a great player.

Still, I stand by the assertion that Drexler was better.

Havlicek's teammates included Dave Cowens, JoJo White, Bill Russell, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, KC Jones, even Cousy for his last year.

(Don't overlook Cowens, who won the MVP in 1973 and finished in the top 4 in MVP voting every year from 1973-76, and 7th in 1972. Was Havlicek the alpha on those Celts' teams, or was it Cowens?)

Clyde's teammates included Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams, UConn's own Cliff Robinson, and briefly Hakeem (and late-career Barkley) during the Rockets stint.

Clyde played 184 fewer games yet had more win shares (135.6) than Havlicek (131.7).

Clyde also had a higher PER (21.1, vs. 17.5).

As mentioned, he once finished 2nd in the MVP voting. Havlicek's best finish was 4th.

Their points, rebounds, assists, and shooting percentage numbers were similar:

JH: John Havlicek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

CD: Clyde Drexler Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Drexler played in a lower scoring/more physical era, so his points represented a larger share of his team's offense.

Drexler still ranks 10th all-time in career steals (9th if ABA stats are excluded):

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

It's true that Havlicek made more All-NBA teams than Drexler, but there were generally many fewer teams/other players to compete with in the (still semi-segregated, pre-ABA merger) 1960s and 1970s than in the following two decades, when Drexler was a 10-time All-Star even during the Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Robinson, Ewing, Mullin, Payton et al. era. (Kareem, Moses, and Dr J bridged the eras of Havlicek and Drexler.)

Shooting percentages were also generally lower in the '60s-'70s, even before 3-pointers limited shooting percentages in later years, so it would be hard to argue that Havlicek's era involved a better brand of basketball than Drexler's.

(For example, would Cowens have finished in the top 4 in MVP voting in any year of the 1980s or 1990s, let alone four straight years? No way.)

So, I respect the opinions of those who favor Havlicek. But if he were not a Celtic, he would not have received the acclaim he did.

Drexler earned recognition even in Portland. Imagine if he were in Boston, NY, or LA.

 

[Huskyforlife]

For me it's Robinson, he'd just dominate the paint like a better Gobert, or Mobley. This idea that physical centers don't exist in todays nba is wrong, look at dudes like Steven Adams or Mitchell Robinson, they're vital to their teams playstyles. Edey and Clingan were just picked in the lottery last year, Maluach is a top 10 pick this year.

But these conversations always assume players would shoot better growing up in this era, and I don't make that assumption. I'm also not sure these guys could practice their shooting like today's players without sacrificing in other facets of their game, due to shear time constraints, that made them stars.

 

[Hoophound]

For me it's Robinson, he'd just dominate the paint like a better Gobert, or Mobley. This idea that physical centers don't exist in todays nba is wrong, look at dudes like Steven Adams or Mitchell Robinson, they're vital to their teams playstyles. Edey and Clingan were just picked in the lottery last year, Maluach is a top 10 pick this year.

But these conversations always assume players would shoot better growing up in this era, and I don't make that assumption. I'm also not sure these guys could practice their shooting like today's players without sacrificing in other facets of their game, due to shear time constraints, that made them stars.

I disagree. These guys were forced to practice layups and 10 footers. 3’s were a sideshow. When shooting from deep became ok, great shooters were coming out of the woodwork within a few years. Many of the people we are discussing were money from midrange. They just didn’t practice shooting the 3. Barkley and Malone were killers inside 18’.

 

[Chin Diesel]

 

[Huskyforlife]

I disagree. These guys were forced to practice layups and 10 footers. 3’s were a sideshow. When shooting from deep became ok, great shooters were coming out of the woodwork within a few years. Many of the people we are discussing were money from midrange. They just didn’t practice shooting the 3. Barkley and Malone were killers inside 18’.

But you aren't accounting for how practicing 3s would take away from their time working on other skills. 3pt shooting is a tough skill for any player to get down, modern players struggle to develop their shots often times.

 

[Lafayette]

I'm a Celtics fan, and no disrespect to Havlicek, who was a great player.

Still, I stand by the assertion that Drexler was better.

Havlicek's teammates included Dave Cowens, JoJo White, Bill Russell, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, KC Jones, even Cousy for his last year.

(Don't overlook Cowens, who won the MVP in 1973 and finished in the top 4 in MVP voting every year from 1973-76, and 7th in 1972. Was Havlicek the alpha on those Celts' teams, or was it Cowens?)

Clyde's teammates included Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams, UConn's own Cliff Robinson, and briefly Hakeem (and late-career Barkley) during the Rockets stint.

Clyde played 184 fewer games yet had more win shares (135.6) than Havlicek (131.7).

Clyde also had a higher PER (21.1, vs. 17.5).

As mentioned, he once finished 2nd in the MVP voting. Havlicek's best finish was 4th.

Their points, rebounds, assists, and shooting percentage numbers were similar:

JH: John Havlicek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

CD: Clyde Drexler Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Drexler played in a lower scoring/more physical era, so his points represented a larger share of his team's offense.

Drexler still ranks 10th all-time in career steals (9th if ABA stats are excluded):

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

It's true that Havlicek made more All-NBA teams than Drexler, but there were generally many fewer teams/other players to compete with in the (still semi-segregated, pre-ABA merger) 1960s and 1970s than in the following two decades, when Drexler was a 10-time All-Star even during the Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Robinson, Ewing, Mullin, Payton et al. era. (Kareem, Moses, and Dr J bridged the eras of Havlicek and Drexler.)

Shooting percentages were also generally lower in the '60s-'70s, even before 3-pointers limited shooting percentages in later years, so it would be hard to argue that Havlicek's era involved a better brand of basketball than Drexler's.

(For example, would Cowens have finished in the top 4 in MVP voting in any year of the 1980s or 1990s, let alone four straight years? No way.)

So, I respect the opinions of those who favor Havlicek. But if he were not a Celtic, he would not have received the acclaim he did.

Drexler earned recognition even in Portland. Imagine if he were in Boston, NY, or LA.

Havlicek also played along side Cousy, Russel, Jones, Heinsohn, Cowens and White. Drexler had Porter, Kersey, Duckworth. Supporting casts matter.

 

[Waquoit]

Drexler had Porter, Kersey, Duckworth. Supporting casts matter.

So now you're dunking on Uncle Cliffy to make your point?

 

[Lafayette]

So now you're dunking on Uncle Cliffy to make your point?

No. I'm talking being surrounded by All-Stars and future HOFers.

Clyde Drexler is in the basketball HOF with no one he played with. Kersey, Porter, Duckworth, Uncle Cliffy - none made it
Havilcek is in the HOF with Cousy, Russell, Jones, Heinsohn, Cowens and White

If you compare 2 players from different teams, eras, and whatnot, who they played with matters. Havilicek was a great player, HOF like Drexler but played with some super talented players while Drexler did not.

 

[superjohn]

No. I'm talking being surrounded by All-Stars and future HOFers.

Clyde Drexler is in the basketball HOF with no one he played with. Kersey, Porter, Duckworth, Uncle Cliffy - none made it
Havilcek is in the HOF with Cousy, Russell, Jones, Heinsohn, Cowens and White

If you compare 2 players from different teams, eras, and whatnot, who they played with matters. Havilicek was a great player, HOF like Drexler but played with some super talented players while Drexler did not.

Drexler isn't on this list but it's an insane visual of what Jokic has been working with...

 

[Excalibur]

Havlicek also played along side Cousy, Russel, Jones, Heinsohn, Cowens and White. Drexler had Porter, Kersey, Duckworth. Supporting casts matter.

Rosters were generally thinner in the early 90's after the NBA added four teams.

 

[Lafayette]

Rosters were generally thinner in the early 90's after the NBA added four teams.

Agreed - but again the other 4 guys on the team are the main cast.

If we consider which of the listed players +4s, Drexler had it the worst

If we added David "Skywalker" Thompson to this mix, he might come out on top.