Where's the outrage over UNC's academic fraud?

[ZooCougar]

U realize we could get in trouble by talking about this. Shush

I know, really.

 

[uconnfan68]

Really it is simple. If the university of north carolina knows it had students taking bogus courses, it should declare those classes are not being recognized. Void any degrees that relied on those for credit. If it doesn't do that or something like that, if the University doesn't say they were bogus, and everything I've read seems to suggest that they haven't exactly done that, then you are asking the NCAA to go in and rule on whether something is a legitimate class or not. And once you do that, you open things up even more. I wouldn't have wanted the NCAA to come in and decide whether some class was rigorous enough. Or whether it should count toward someone's degree. And that is the problem with this situation. the institution you should be getting on is not the NCAA. It is the University of North Carolina. they are the ones offering bogus classes and apparently giving bogus degrees. that's where the pressure should be placed to force changes. Because there are some things the NCAA can't or shouldn't do. And there are some areas where they just don't have any rules. How owuld you propose the NCAA handle it anyway? every professor submit his syllabus at the beginning of the semester? Every proposal for an independent study be submitted for approval by Emmert? Every student senior thesis gets sent to the NCAA office for evaluation? Every independent study report? Internship journal? How would you propose to get the NCAA involved in this?

Why did they do it in the first place? Because they could. This is how schools deal with the NCAA. We have much to learn.

 

[JHHusky]

Not according to the NCAA.

On the surface, your statement is true.

Just dig below the surface though:
When you have the athletic department's academic advisers systematically channeling athletes to these fraudulent classes it is an NCAA issue.
When "forged signatures" on grade changes (reported in the investigation) impact an athlete's eligibility, it most certainly is an NCAA issue.

 

[upstater]

On the surface, your statement is true.

Just dig below the surface though:
When you have the athletic department's academic advisers systematically channeling athletes to these fraudulent classes it is an NCAA issue.
When "forged signatures" on grade changes (reported in the investigation) impact an athlete's eligibility, it most certainly is an NCAA issue.

But the NCAA's initial statement on the matter was to wash its hands. It put forth some totally invalid reasoning about academic affairs, when the NCAA has meddled so many time in those affairs in the past.

This showed a predisposition (and we know the NCAA is undoubtedly predisposed in such matters, in a variety of ways).

 

[upstater]

I actually agree with scoot somewhat here in that there is an ambiguity and a burden of proof that can't be put on the NCAA to define what does and does not constitute a class.

However, and I'm not familiar with all the details, if UNC is on the record that at least 1 Current student athlete has been found to have been given a grade for absolutely no work whatsoever, that student should be declared ineligible regardless of the problem extending outside of the athletic community. There is no ambiguity in what constitutes a class if there is evidence that no work was ever completed.

Then why does the NCAA get involved all the time in precisely these kind of non-athletic issues?

 

[freescooter]

Just to be clear here, I think that UNC should be ashamed. And that they should take dramatic action and fire faculty members, coaches, staff, and void any degrees that were issued to people who used those bogus classes. They should self penalize any programs that had players participate in the charade, too. If that results in the school having used ineligible players for example because they weren't enrolled in enough credits or whatnot, that should be reported to the NCAA who can then act accordingly. That is what should be done if the institution had a shred of integrity. The NCAA isn't the problem in this case.

 

[freescooter]

Then why does the NCAA get involved all the time in precisely these kind of non-athletic issues?

For example?

 

[mattp]

Not according to the NCAA.

If that department was fraudulent, than how is it possible that they didn't have a boat load of academically ineligible players on their team?

 

[riskylogic]

If you really want outrage, Pack Pride is the definitive source. This is just the latest of many, many threads over the last three years:

NC State

Plenty of howling on other boards too though, for example:

Virginia

Duke

 

[upstater]

If that department was fraudulent, than how is it possible that they didn't have a boat load of academically ineligible players on their team?

Not possible. Obviously. The problem is that the school--through the faculty member--authorized the fraud. Thus, the players do not deserve to fail those courses. However, neither do they deserve credit for those courses, and there is ample reason to believe that the code of conduct also holds the students liable.

 

[Adios]

never has the old Jerry Tarkanian line been proven true more: "the NCAA was so mad at Kentucky it put Cleveland State on two years of probation"

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=5242104

"Is NCAA selective enforcement real?"

Written 2+ years ago.

 

[ruskin]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=5242104

"Is NCAA selective enforcement real?"

Written 2+ years ago.

Note the quoted source is an NCAA official and NO mention of North Carolina or Duke.

 

[freescooter]

Not possible. Obviously. The problem is that the school--through the faculty member--authorized the fraud. Thus, the players do not deserve to fail those courses. However, neither do they deserve credit for those courses, and there is ample reason to believe that the code of conduct also holds the students liable.

But until the school actually admits it and takes some action to correct the record, and to the best of my knowledge they haven't, there isn't much the NCAA can do. Because, again, they don't decide what class is bogus and what class is legitimate. Just ot give an example, not at UNC or even a D1 school, but Wesleyan, a fine, highly respected liberal arts school ran a class on pornography I htink in th ewomens studies department, maybe it was sociology, I don't recall the details. It became something of an issue a few years back because one of the assignments required students to either make a flick or write a pornographic story or do a photo shoot, something along those lines. Wesleyan maintained that it was a perfectly legitimate subject for academic study, the professor was highly qualified in the field (sociology or womens studies or something, not pornography) and it likely was/is, and that the curriculum was rigorous. It was just the subject matter that was "squicky" though they didn't use that term. I believe the course is still offered though they have modified the requirements somewhat and changed the title for political and fundraising reasons. But I can imagine some NCAA guy with a newly minted degree from Ouachtia Baptist College or BYU or Anna Maria College being sent to investigate and raising all kinds of stink based on subject not quality. That is the "slippery slope" you start down when you start having the NCAA rule on the quality of specific courses.

 

[upstater]

For example?

Cal. tech
Auburn with Sociology (player bans, games docked)
We just saw an article here posted a month ago in which an AD said the NCAA went after him and his school precisely in a case that supposedly involved only academics. It was an ESPN article that I can't find.

For heaven's sake, think what you're saying. If schools can get away with this, the APR means nothing. You can report to the NCAA from the academic side that your APR score is 1000. The NCAA does nothing? THat's what you're saying? That's preposterous.

Read this too: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...lic-claims-school-tolerated-academic-cheating

How in the world is the athletic department absolved?

You actually believe an investigation that was sent up the political ladder? With UNC sports at stake? In that state? How gullible can you be?

 

[upstater]

But until the school actually admits it and takes some action to correct the record, and to the best of my knowledge they haven't, there isn't much the NCAA can do. Because, again, they don't decide what class is bogus and what class is legitimate. Just ot give an example, not at UNC or even a D1 school, but Wesleyan, a fine, highly respected liberal arts school ran a class on pornography I htink in th ewomens studies department, maybe it was sociology, I don't recall the details. It became something of an issue a few years back because one of the assignments required students to either make a flick or write a pornographic story or do a photo shoot, something along those lines. Wesleyan maintained that it was a perfectly legitimate subject for academic study, the professor was highly qualified in the field (sociology or womens studies or something, not pornography) and it likely was/is, and that the curriculum was rigorous. It was just the subject matter that was "squicky" though they didn't use that term. I believe the course is still offered though they have modified the requirements somewhat and changed the title for political and fundraising reasons. But I can imagine some NCAA guy with a newly minted degree from Ouachtia Baptist College or BYU or Anna Maria College being sent to investigate and raising all kinds of stink based on subject not quality. That is the "slippery slope" you start down when you start having the NCAA rule on the quality of specific courses.

You keep saying the NCAA can't do anything. They obviously have!!!

I'm not even going to take you up on this idea of comparing a totally bogus program for athletes to a class on pornography at Wesleyan. I mean, why make that comparison at all? This isn't a matter of deciding what classes are legitimate or not.

It's about classes that everyone admitted were total frauds. Are you really unaware of what is going on?

 

[Adios]

Penn State football went 8-4 last season. Worst that happened to Penn State football in that punishment is their wins since 1998 under Paterno were vacated. They'll remain in history books though.

 

[Adios]

Note the quoted source is an NCAA official and NO mention of North Carolina or Duke.

The article does acknowledge that the NCAA is biased when it comes to punishment, at least.