What to do about offensive flops

[cancontent]

I am talking about the offensive player selling a foul that they create. I watched a couple of FSU games bfore they played UConn and Latson gets around half her points on the foul line. She throws herself at the defensive player and gets a lot of calls from the refs. Lou got her becasue when she threw herself at Lou she did the flop to show the ref that the offensive player created the contact and made her fall.

Flopping is a defensive tactic to me. Hadn't heard the term being used from an offensive perspective before.

 

[dabears17]

Heard from a little birdie that part of Stanford’s scouting report on the Creighton Bluejays is that they like to flop. Only saw parts of the 2nd and 4th quarter, but saw two definite flops in a 3 minute stretch. A couple others were just exaggerations to make sure the refs saw contact.

Poor Betts got called for a foul running through and knocking done a guard cutting to the basket.

I’ve never like taking a charge and falling to the ground. Jamie Carey loved to do that and it made me nervous. She wound getting concussions and she had to retire because Stanford doctors refused to clear her to play. University of Texas wound up clearing her about a year later and she made it to the final four with them.

 

[Bone Dog]

Flopping is a defensive tactic to me. Hadn't heard the term being used from an offensive perspective before.

Yup. The offensive version is sometimes called “creating contact.” But a common version of this is driving into the defender and then falling down behind the backboard. Clark is a master of this tactic. Think of other guards who rarely end a drive standing up.

 

[cancontent]

Yup. The offensive version is sometimes called “creating contact.” But a common version of this is driving into the defender and then falling down behind the backboard. Clark is a master of this tactic. Think of other guards who rarely end a drive standing up.

The list could be a long one. How much time do we have today?

 

[cancontent]

Heard from a little birdie that part of Stanford’s scouting report on the Creighton Bluejays is that they like to flop. Only saw parts of the 2nd and 4th quarter, but saw two definite flops in a 3 minute stretch. A couple others were just exaggerations to make sure the refs saw contact.

Poor Betts got called for a foul running through and knocking done a guard cutting to the basket.

I’ve never like taking a charge and falling to the ground. Jamie Carey loved to do that and it made me nervous. She wound getting concussions and she had to retire because Stanford doctors refused to clear her to play. University of Texas wound up clearing her about a year later and she made it to the final four with them.

It's a catch-22 from how I see it. Players are taught how to absorb contact nowadays to help avoid hitting their head, but sometimes it's still unavoidable. Offensive players at the same time drive to the basket with no regard of the defensive player, even if they're not trying to draw the charge.

 

[BobbyJ]

Flopping is a defensive tactic to me. Hadn't heard the term being used from an offensive perspective before.

Watch Caitlin Clark. Leans in with the shoulder, launches away, flings a shot up to get the shooting foul, flails the arms like she's been electrocuted, and slides to the floor so she doesn't hit it hard. Usually does it going right so her shooting arm is free. Masterful performance.

 

[cancontent]

Watch Caitlin Clark. Leans in with the shoulder, launches away, flings a shot up to get the shooting foul, flails the arms like she's been electrocuted, and slides to the floor so she doesn't hit it hard. Usually does it going right so her shooting arm is free. Masterful performance.

I still see that as "selling the foul/contact" versus flopping. I'm not a fan of the tactic at all.

Been seeing kids do this for years in HS and AAU ball and refs fall for it every time. Clark may be one of the better known players for this, but the list of who do this would be a lengthy one.

 

[Bone Dog]

I still see that as "selling the foul/contact" versus flopping. I'm not a fan of the tactic at all.

I think that’s a fair description. I don’t fault the players for it. These are the terms of the game as they’ve been taught them. If anyone should be faulted, it’s the coaches and the refs and even the NCAA for structuring the game this way and teaching the kids to play it. I certainly don’t blame Clark for it. She is just excellent at the game she’s been taught.

 

[cancontent]

I think that’s a fair description. I don’t fault the players for it. These are the terms of the game as they’ve been taught them. If anyone should be faulted, it’s the coaches and the refs and even the NCAA for structuring the game this way and teaching the kids to play it. I certainly don’t blame Clark for it. She is just excellent at the game she’s been taught.

I agree. Like they say "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Doesn't mean I can't get frustrated and go into "older person yelling at the clouds" mode though.

 

[Bone Dog]

I agree. Like they say "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Doesn't mean I can't get frustrated and go into "older person yelling at the clouds" mode though.

I spend so much time yelling at the clouds these days

But I also remember all the kids who routinely end drives still standing and ready to get back on D, like:
Christyn
Evina
Paige
Nika
Caroline
Aubrey
… to name just a few, and only going back a couple years.

And teams that don’t rely on this tactic (or at least not very much), like:
Indiana
Marquette
Villanova
Michigan
Stanford
SCar
Louisville
… even Tennessee

 

[SVCBeercats]

Did anyone else se this and is this a tendency in WBB. I call it Flop and shoot. I think the refs must be shown this and learn to determine who creates the contact is the fouler.

Generally flopping can be stopped by accelerating into the offending defender and slamming an elbow or shoulder into their solar plexus. The groin area is not off limits. Put down 1 or 2 of them and they cease and desist with the flopping. A certain amount of acting is required to avoid being tossed. If they fall before contact, then fake a trip and land with your butt or knee in the aforementioned bodily areas.

 

[cancontent]

Generally flopping can be stopped by accelerating into the offending defender and slamming an elbow or shoulder into their solar plexus. The groin area is not off limits. Put down 1 or 2 of them and they cease and desist with the flopping. A certain amount of acting is required to avoid being tossed. If they fall before contact, then fake a trip and land with your butt or knee in the aforementioned bodily areas.

Hoping this is sarcasm. I can see this approach backfiring in a bad way.

 

[BobbyJ]

I think that’s a fair description. I don’t fault the players for it. These are the terms of the game as they’ve been taught them. If anyone should be faulted, it’s the coaches and the refs and even the NCAA for structuring the game this way and teaching the kids to play it. I certainly don’t blame Clark for it. She is just excellent at the game she’s been taught.

It’s easy not to fault the player as a fan with no stake in it. But not as the defender who’s getting scammed by that player with help from incompetent referees who know what’s going on and won’t call it. But if she doesn’t mind having the reputation as a flopper now and when she gets to the pros, she can have it. The players know and most won’t respect it.

 

[Urshurak]

Flops aren’t illegal in the Women’s game, so it’s a strategy that can really work. The Mabreys have made it a family tradition. It especially works well against UConn as refs seem to relish calling fouls against us for literally nothing sometimes.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Hoping this is sarcasm. I can see this approach backfiring in a bad way.

Ja

 

[Ozimoto]

There were kids doing this when my son played in grade school. The defender could be standing still with their arms straight up and the offensive player would drive just slightly to the left or right of the defender and lean into them as they drove. The refs would call a blocking foul on the defender 90% of the time because I guess the defender wasn't "squared up" enough for it to be a charge. Maybe they saw this as the defender "impeding the progress of the offensive player." If that's the way the game is called, I guess you have to respect the coaching or BB IQ of the kids who will take advantage of it.

 

[Skeets]

How many times have posters on the BY said that (pick your player) should drive to the basket more often to pick up a foul? Isn't that teetering on the same thing this post is all about? The difference could be just a matter of degrees of sportsmanship. Before you jump on me, the players intent does mean a lot.

 

[cancontent]

How many times have posters on the BY said that (pick your player) should drive to the basket more often to pick up a foul? Isn't that teetering on the same thing this post is all about? The difference could be just a matter of degrees of sportsmanship. Before you jump on me, the players intent does mean a lot.

Yes it does teeter on a thin line, but your word "intent" is key here. What is their intention? An aggressive offensive play or to draw a foul because they know their decision to drive wasn't a good one and are trying to salvage something out of it.

From my view, attacking the basket isn't a bad thing. Defenders still have to do their job and if they block, reach, etc., it has to be called. However driving to the basket and "acting" as if you got fouled to convince the referee is a different thing all together. You even hear commentators mention when they feel a player sold the call when it doesn't look right to them.

 

[Centerstream]

Yes it does teeter on a thin line, but your word "intent" is key here. What is their intention? An aggressive offensive play or to draw a foul because they know their decision to drive wasn't a good one and are trying to salvage something out of it.

From my view, attacking the basket isn't a bad thing. Defenders still have to do their job and if they block, reach, etc., it has to be called. However driving to the basket and "acting" as if you got fouled to convince the referee is a different thing all together. You even hear commentators mention when they feel a player sold the call when it doesn't look right to them.

Last night during the Michigan v NC game, this flopping tendency was discussed by the announcers, Eric Frede and Deb Antonelli. Guess which (ACC) team they were talking about?

 

[cancontent]

Last night during the Michigan v NC game, this flopping tendency was discussed by the announcers, Eric Frede and Deb Antonelli. Guess which (ACC) team they were talking about?

I'd have to guess that infamous UConn rival from the Bend. Notre Dame.

 

[Centerstream]

I'd have to guess that infamous UConn rival from the Bend. Notre Dame.

I guess I was pretty vague in my post...they were actually discussing one of the teams that was on the court for the game they were broadcasting.

 

[cancontent]

I guess I was pretty vague in my post...they were actually discussing one of the teams that was on the court for the game they were broadcasting.

I was working on something and had the volume on low. Totally missed that.

 

[Stinger92860]

The referees don't know how to handle the offensive flop. I have seen Arkansas guards use it last year and now the FSU guards are using it as one their primary scoring options. Drive to the hoop and throw yourself at the defensive player and throw the ball towards the hoop and then fall downfall down.
1. This is best used against bigs by little guards. The big stands her ground with their hands up and the offensive player knows their shot with probably be blocked but throws themselves at the big and they will get to the foul line for two shots. This is 50 to 75 % of Watson's offensive arsenal. Lots of points from the line.
2. Lou did a fantastic job on Watson by falling backwards as Watson would throw herself at her. She was rewarded by getting two charges on her.
3. The refs can see the contact being created by the offensive player when the defensive player falls but not when the bigs stand straight up with their hands up. They are assuming when the player falls down it must be the defenders fault.

Did anyone else se this and is this a tendency in WBB. I call it Flop and shoot. I think the refs must be shown this and learn to determine who creates the contact is the fouler.

this happens in the mens game too. I saw similar last night in the nba at a critical point in the Knicks-raptor game. Siakam took a jumper and simply went backwards and fell to the floor. A shooting foul was called. And this ifs a game where people are hit hard with no calls.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Another one is the tie-up when a player is on the floor with the ball. The defensive player can jump on that player and never touch the ball and a tie-up in called every time.

I agree with this. It used to be a foul.

And the rules or at least their interpretation used to favor offense on block/charge which was better.

Coaching to hold a spot defensively is fine but those that Coach to try and force more calls are maki g the game less appealing. At the end, I'd rather see offense than possessions that end without shots.

The women's game is much more likely to whistle the player that didn't hit the floor though. I think it's gotten better about that though. I do t notice it quite as much. But the defense gets too many charges in my view still.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Everything is geared towards more offense. Fans and players want 90-89 games rather than 42-41 games. It is better for the ego to score at will, so defense is on a back burner both by rules and desire. It's same in most sports

I really think it's the opposite. Game favors defense and it makes the product less attractive.

Personally, I think coaching towards drawing cheap whistles on either end is somewhat unsportsmanlike and is detrimental to the quality of the entertainment.

 

[Bone Dog]

I finally watched a replay of the Michigan-UNC game and saw what happened. Leigha Brown complained about Déjà Kelley flopping on a play in the second half and got a technical for her trouble. Brown is a passionate player who was having a good game and was quite vociferous at that point.

Kelley’s flopping didn’t seem outside of what has become ordinary these days, which is probably why Brown got T’d up for complaining about it. The interesting thing is what happened afterwards. The refs backed off on calling charges — no more flops were even recognized, one charge was called for the rest of the game and it looked like some real contact.

Lots of contact, in fact, on lots of plays, and the refs just ignored almost all of it. I’m not sure what the refs were thinking, but the game itself was much improved by this. Perhaps it takes a few games like this one for things to change.

One last gripe: if the FSU game had been called the way this one was, Latson would have gotten 5pts and we’d have one by 30.