OT: Way Too Early Mid-Major Top-24*

[Hey Adrien!]

For those who've read my Saturday Viewing Guides, you know I love mid-major basketball.

Two weeks ago, Busting Brackets released their "way too early" mid-major top-25.

For the other mid-major basketball fans on the Boneyard, I'll summarize their rankings below and include any teams that should be rated lower or higher due to changes of their roster since the article was written. Also, I will not include Gonzaga on this list, as, although they play in the WCC, it just doesn't feel right to put them on this list. They also did not include any AAC teams, so keep that in mind, especially with Houston, a top-20 overall team, is not on these rankings.

1. St. Bonaventure - Atlantic 10
2. Nevada - Mountain West
3. Loyola-Chicago - Missouri Valley
4. Colorado State - Mountain West
5. BYU - West Coast
   1. Strong upgrade after San Jose State's Seneca Knight transferred in. Was injured in 20-21, but averaged 17.1p, 5.7r, 2.4a in 19-20.
6. Richmond - Atlantic 10
7. Iona - MAAC
8. Belmont - Ohio Valley
9. UAB - Conference USA.
   1. Soft-to-moderate upgrade after LSU's Josh LeBlanc transferred (3.2p, 4.4r)
10. Saint Louis - Atlantic 10.
    1. Moderate upgrade after DeAndre Jones transferred in from Central Arkansas (10.5p, 3.7a, 52.5 3p%)
11. New Mexico State- WAC
    1. Soft upgrade after URI's Jermaine Harris transferred in last week (3.3p, 2.8r)
12. Murray State - Ohio Valley
13. Drake - Missouri Valley
14. Louisiana - Sun Belt.
15. San Diego State - Mountain West
16. Northern Iowa - Missouri Valley.
17. South Dakota State - Summit.
18. Buffalo - MAC.
19. Louisiana Tech - Conference USA
20. Missouri State - Missouri Valley
21. Morehead State - Ohio Valley
22. Saint Mary's - West Coast
23. Oral Roberts - Summit.
    1. Hard downgrade after Kevin Obanor transferred to Texas Tech.
24. Ohio- MAC.
    1. Hard downgrade after Jason Preston has declared for the NBA draft.

By conference:

Four teams

• Missouri Valley - Loyola-Chicago, Drake, Northern Iowa, Missouri State

Three teams

• Atlantic 10 - St. Bonaventure, Richmond, Saint Louis
• Mountain West - Nevada, Colorado State, San Diego State
• Ohio Valley - Belmont, Murray State, Morehead State

Two teams

• West Coast - BYU, Saint Mary's
• Conference USA - UAB, Louisiana
• MAC - Buffalo, Ohio*
• Summit - South Dakota State, Oral Roberts*

One team

• MAAC - Iona
• WAC - New Mexico State

 

[businesslawyer]

For what it's worth (admittedly absolutely nothing), I don't consider either the AAC or the A-Ten as mid majors. They, along with the Power 5 and Big East, are major basketball conferences based on depth and consistency.

 

[WestHartHusk]

For what it's worth (admittedly absolutely nothing), I don't consider either the AAC or the A-Ten as mid majors. They, along with the Power 5 and Big East, are major basketball conferences based on depth and consistency.

A-10 is basically the definition of mid-major. AAC depends on the year and whether they can keep their coaches.

 

[businesslawyer]

A-10 is basically the definition of mod-major. AAC depends on the year and whether they can keep their coaches.

Look up what mid means and how many conferences there are. The A-10 normally is 8th best. Do the math.

 

[WestHartHusk]

Look up what mid means and how many conferences there are. The A-10 normally is 8th best. Do the math.

That's a bit pedantic, even for a lawyer.

It's like arguing the P5 should be the P10 because every conference has some power.

 

[Guapo]

I consider the A-10 a mid-major.

The top part of the AAC is major college basketball. The bottom part is...not

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Mid-major is more about $$$ than the quality of the teams.

Based on that, Gonzaga is a high-major playing in a mid-major conference. Their basketball budget (10.5 mil) is 157% higher than the median WCC team (4.1 mil), on par with any high-major program.

Great article on this: Fun with Finances: Basketball Budgets — Three-Man-Weave

A good diagram from that article:

 

[Guapo]

Mid-major is more about $$$ than the quality of the teams.

Based on that, Gonzaga is a high-major playing in a mid-major conference. Their basketball budget (10.5 mil) is 157% higher than the median WCC team (4.1 mil), on par with any high-major program.

Great article on this: Fun with Finances: Basketball Budgets — Three-Man-Weave

A good diagram from that article:

View attachment 68638

Oh hey that’s a really interesting table.

It’s hilarious some idiots think the AAC is on the same level as a basketball conference

 

[Dooooooomed]

I'd call the AAC a tweener basketball league, not quite major...not quite mid-major. @Hey Adrien! 's budget numbers seem to back it up.

 

[freescooter]

I think it is more about teams than money. Doesn’t matter what conference try are in, no way DePaul is a major program. The happen to be in a good league. Loyola Chicago has had way more success than Seton Hall in the past decade. Who cares what league they are in. Gonzaga is a power program and would be in any league. Providence is mid major whether they are in the ACC, New Big East or Colonial. It is about the program, it’s success and it’s approach more than the league. Let’s face it, if DePaul is actually spending almost $10 million on basketball they might want to consider taking 5 and throwing it into The Chicago River for all the good it does. If Gonzaga is spending under $5 million, we need to see what they are doing and copy it.

 

[McLovin]

I’m just glad that no matter what side anyone is on, the “is the AAC a mid major” debate no longer matters to UConn at all.

 

[Guapo]

I think it is more about teams than money. Doesn’t matter what conference try are in, no way DePaul is a major program. The happen to be in a good league. Loyola Chicago has had way more success than Seton Hall in the past decade. Who cares what league they are in. Gonzaga is a power program and would be in any league. Providence is mid major whether they are in the ACC, New Big East or Colonial. It is about the program, it’s success and it’s approach more than the league. Let’s face it, if DePaul is actually spending almost $10 million on basketball they might want to consider taking 5 and throwing it into The Chicago River for all the good it does. If Gonzaga is spending under $5 million, we need to see what they are doing and copy it.

so you didn’t even read the article, I see.

not surprised

What an ignorant fool you continue to be.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

I'd call the AAC a tweener basketball league, not quite major...not quite mid-major. @Hey Adrien! 's budget numbers seem to back it up.

Exactly.

AAC high rollers:

• 44th overall, Houston, 9.2M
• 59th overall, Memphis, 8.2M
• 60th overall, Wichita State, 8.2M
• 65th overall, Cincinnati, 7.6M
• 66th overall, SMU, 7.6M

For comparison, UConn is 41st at 9.3M

ACC penny pinchers:

• 96th and 97th overall, Tulane and South Florida, 4.9M.
• 101st overall, Central Florida, 4.6M.
• 116th overall, East Carolina, 3.9M.

For comparison, teams like Old Dominion, William & Mary and Pepperdine have budgets higher than East Carolina.

The lowest Big East team is Butler at 5.8M (90th overall).

A full list of team's budgets are at the bottom of the article in my previous post.

 

[Watchdog]

Mid-major is more about $$$ than the quality of the teams.

Based on that, Gonzaga is a high-major playing in a mid-major conference. Their basketball budget (10.5 mil) is 157% higher than the median WCC team (4.1 mil), on par with any high-major program.

Great article on this: Fun with Finances: Basketball Budgets — Three-Man-Weave

A good diagram from that article:

View attachment 68638

This list is very interesting, thanks for posting it.
Either I didn't see it, or it wasn't addressed, but it'd be interesting to know what expenses are included and excluded in these budget totals.

How, for example, could any program, in any league, in any part of the country, even in small cities, operate at a total cost below $1 Million if that cost included tuition and fees, room and board, etc for 13 players?

UConn's critics like to point to athletic department "losses", especially in football, that appear large because they include allocations for tuition and other expenses the level of which can be debated because adding a student athlete to a class doesn't add a proportional salary adjustment for the prof/GA, nor increase cleaning costs for the class/lecture halls, nor add to utility and HVAC costs, for example. Meals and other variable costs are another issue.

 

[freescooter]

so you didn’t even read the article, I see.

not surprised

What an ignorant fool you continue to be.

Spending proves what, now? Providence is #20. It has earned them 1 NCAA tournament victory since 1997. Give half the money to Save the Bay and they’ll probably do just as well. Georgetown is in the top 10. LOL. Since the NEWBIE they have earned 3 bids with 1 win. The Hall spends 7.5 mil. Spend half as much and I bet they can make the tourney every few years and lose in the first round. Successful teams and power conferences have more money to spend but that isn’t what makes them successful. It is largely the other way around..or Pitt should have at least a few Final Fours. But having money and spending it doesn’t = success. As I said, Pitt. Providence, Marquette, Georgetown…all top 25 in spending. Arguably wasting money

 

[freescooter]

Actually the whole question of majors and mid majors being tied to leagues is a bit silly. Who is more of a major, Loyola-Chicago or Boston College? Gonzaga or Wake Forest? Washington State or Buffalo? Pitt or DePaul? Ok the last one is a trick question. Answer is neither one. Even the article does it. On what planet is Maryland now viewed as a major power? Certainly not this one.

 

[gtcam]

Thanks for the basketball analysis and the "way too early" Hey Adrien - great as usual - St Bonnies will be a really good team this upcoming season and depending on who is playing vs who is working on some sabbatical overseas, BYU could be a handful.

As for all the BS arguments involving the AAC vs everyone else - there are teams in the AAC that would compete in any conference and there are teams in the ACC, PAC12, Big East etc that would never see .500 WPCT in the AAC. UHouston could win any conference. Please don't argue that Gonzaga/Houston situation mirror each other because the conferences aren't very close to being the same.
I'm only talking basketball not ADept/team budgets and monies earned/spent/allocated or Fun with Basketball budgets - those can be manipulated in any way you want.

 

[MU in MKE]

Thanks for the basketball analysis and the "way too early" Hey Adrien - great as usual - St Bonnies will be a really good team this upcoming season and depending on who is playing vs who is working on some sabbatical overseas, BYU could be a handful.

As for all the BS arguments involving the AAC vs everyone else - there are teams in the AAC that would compete in any conference and there are teams in the ACC, PAC12, Big East etc that would never see .500 WPCT in the AAC. UHouston could win any conference. Please don't argue that Gonzaga/Houston situation mirror each other because the conferences aren't very close to being the same.
I'm only talking basketball not ADept/team budgets and monies earned/spent/allocated or Fun with Basketball budgets - those can be manipulated in any way you want.

Fun fact: in the last 3 seasons DePaul is 6-3 against non-Big East "P6" schools.

 

[freescooter]

Fun fact. Since joining the original Big East, DePaul has had 2 winning seasons and zero NCAA appearances.
Fun Fact. Since 1992 DePaul has been to 2 NCAA tournaments.
Since joining the Big East DePaul has had 2 post season appearances. One was the 2007 NIT. The other was the 2018 CBI. Or as it’s known. The tournament for teams not good enough to to make the NIT and without enough self worth to just say no.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Fun fact. Since joining the original Big East, DePaul has had 2 winning seasons and zero NCAA appearances.
Fun Fact. Since 1992 DePaul has been to 2 NCAA tournaments.
Since joining the Big East DePaul has had 2 post season appearances. One was the 2007 NIT. The other was the 2018 CBI. Or as it’s known. The tournament for teams not good enough to to make the NIT and without enough self worth to just say no.

Great. Now do Tulane, ECU, and UCF.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Thanks for the basketball analysis and the "way too early" Hey Adrien - great as usual - St Bonnies will be a really good team this upcoming season and depending on who is playing vs who is working on some sabbatical overseas, BYU could be a handful.

Thanks. Would love to keep this thread focused on discussing good mid-major teams, but it's out of my control.

 

[UCDaveD]

What in the blue hell is an “AAC”?

 

[freescooter]

Thanks. Would love to keep this thread focused on discussing good mid-major teams, but it's out of my control.

There are good teams, pretty good teams and to be charitable, not so good teams.. The idea that a team is “good” because it is in the NEWBIE and not as good because it is in say the MVC is crazy. Yet very bad teams like DePaul and Boston College are considered “majors” while better teams are midmajors

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

Is this your Top 25 or Busting Brackets? Are you just tweeking BB and giving analysis? I am not familiar with your Saturday Viewing Guides.

Are you affiliated with an outside publication? If not your MM Top 25 is something I would be interested in reading.

Signed,
Confused

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Is this your Top 25 or Busting Brackets? Are you just tweeking BB and giving analysis? I am not familiar with your Saturday Viewing Guides.

Are you affiliated with an outside publication? If not your MM Top 25 is something I would be interested in reading.

Signed,
Confused

It’s BB’s top-25 (minus Gonzaga) with some added commentary.

 

[freescooter]

The other thing is when you look at the tournament, there are a bunch of upsets most years but they aren’t really upsets based on ability. They are based on perception. Just so you don’t throw it up, yes, there are in fact some real upsets, UMBC over Virginia types, but often they are equal or better teams beating teams that they would be expected to beat if it was based on a Comparison of talent. Loyola when it made its final four run was a really good basketball team. It was as good, or at least very close to the teams it beat. Had it been in the NEWBIE instead of DePaul it would have :a. Been a higher seed and b. Been favored against At least a couple of the 2nd tier majors they beat. Just to show how bogus it all is, a worse Loyola squad got a better seed last year based not on play but on its 2018 performance. Many of the supposed mid-major upsets are based on rep, not ability. That’s why I think leagues should be limited to 4-5 bids. There are other really good teams that get left out so mediocre “majors” can get extra slots they really don’t deserve. If you finish 8th in the Big 10 I really don’t care what a computer says. It doesn’t pass the smell test.
So bottom line is I don’t much care what your league is. Good teams and very good teams exist at most levels And mediocre and bad ones do too. Classifying a team as a major or mid major or low major based on what league you are in is just crazy.

You see the same thing in football, but in a different way. A 4 star kid who signs with UConn will be downgraded to 3 while a 3 star who signs at Michigan is suddenly 4 stars. An undefeated Central Florida is ranked 8 behind 5 “P5” teams most of whom have worse records.

 

[Get a Job]

The other thing is when you look at the tournament, there are a bunch of upsets most years but they aren’t really upsets based on ability. They are based on perception. Just so you don’t throw it up, yes, there are in fact some real upsets, UMBC over Virginia types, but often they are equal or better teams beating teams that they would be expected to beat if it was based on a Comparison of talent. Loyola when it made its final four run was a really good basketball team. It was as good, or at least very close to the teams it beat. Had it been in the NEWBIE instead of DePaul it would have :a. Been a higher seed and b. Been favored against At least a couple of the 2nd tier majors they beat. Just to show how bogus it all is, a worse Loyola squad got a better seed last year based not on play but on its 2018 performance. Many of the supposed mid-major upsets are based on rep, not ability. That’s why I think leagues should be limited to 4-5 bids. There are other really good teams that get left out so mediocre “majors” can get extra slots they really don’t deserve. If you finish 8th in the Big 10 I really don’t care what a computer says. It doesn’t pass the smell test.
So bottom line is I don’t much care what your league is. Good teams and very good teams exist at most levels And mediocre and bad ones do too. Classifying a team as a major or mid major or low major based on what league you are in is just crazy.

You see the same thing in football, but in a different way. A 4 star kid who signs with UConn will be downgraded to 3 while a 3 star who signs at Michigan is suddenly 4 stars. An undefeated Central Florida is ranked 8 behind 5 “P5” teams most of whom have worse records.

I was always under the impression that the term "mid-major" was only applicable to conferences, not teams. In other words, a team can be from a mid-major conference, but can't be a mid-major team. I realize that teams are often referred to as "mid-majors," but I always took that to be shorthand for "a team from a mid-major conference."

Anyway, my point is that I think you may be raving like a lunatic without stopping to think about what the words about which you are ranting mean.

 

[MU in MKE]

@Hey Adrien! , I like your list. I was curious how it compared to one of the metrics sites. I like T-Rank in the off season, so I compared how each team ranked compared to the original list. One reason I like T-rank is because he's pretty up to date on roster moves. I think this list shows how difficult it can be to pin down teams at the mid-major level.

There's a few big swings in there, and the metrics are punishing Ohio nearly as much as your list did. On the other end, Iona is absolutely hammered in the metrics.

https://www.barttorvik.com/?conlimit=mid&state=All&year=2022&sort=

Original Rank	Mid-Maj T-Rank	Full T-Rank
1. St. Bonaventure - Atlantic 10	1​	20​
2. Nevada - Mountain West	11​	65​
3. Loyola-Chicago - Missouri Valley	4​	36​
4. Colorado State - Mountain West	7​	46​
5. BYU - West Coast	3​	34​
6. Richmond - Atlantic 10	6​	43​
7. Iona - MAAC	19​	102​
8. Belmont - Ohio Valley	13​	72​
9. UAB - Conference USA.	10​	62​
10. Saint Louis - Atlantic 10.	12​	68​
11. New Mexico State- WAC	20​	107​
12. Murray State - Ohio Valley	14​	81​
13. Drake - Missouri Valley	8​	57​
14. Louisiana - Sun Belt.	24​	157​
15. San Diego State - Mountain West	2​	31​
16. Northern Iowa - Missouri Valley.	16​	83​
17. South Dakota State - Summit.	21​	126​
18. Buffalo - MAC.	15​	82​
19. Louisiana Tech - Conference USA	18​	99​
20. Missouri State - Missouri Valley	17​	84​
21. Morehead State - Ohio Valley	22​	128​
22. Saint Mary's - West Coast	5​	37​
23. Oral Roberts - Summit.	23​	156​
24. Ohio- MAC.	9​	60​

 

[Hey Adrien!]

@Hey Adrien! , I like your list. I was curious how it compared to one of the metrics sites. I like T-Rank in the off season, so I compared how each team ranked compared to the original list. One reason I like T-rank is because he's pretty up to date on roster moves. I think this list shows how difficult it can be to pin down teams at the mid-major level.

There's a few big swings in there, and the metrics are punishing Ohio nearly as much as your list did. On the other end, Iona is absolutely hammered in the metrics.

https://www.barttorvik.com/?conlimit=mid&state=All&year=2022&sort=

Original Rank	Mid-Maj T-Rank	Full T-Rank
1. St. Bonaventure - Atlantic 10	1​	20​
2. Nevada - Mountain West	11​	65​
3. Loyola-Chicago - Missouri Valley	4​	36​
4. Colorado State - Mountain West	7​	46​
5. BYU - West Coast	3​	34​
6. Richmond - Atlantic 10	6​	43​
7. Iona - MAAC	19​	102​
8. Belmont - Ohio Valley	13​	72​
9. UAB - Conference USA.	10​	62​
10. Saint Louis - Atlantic 10.	12​	68​
11. New Mexico State- WAC	20​	107​
12. Murray State - Ohio Valley	14​	81​
13. Drake - Missouri Valley	8​	57​
14. Louisiana - Sun Belt.	24​	157​
15. San Diego State - Mountain West	2​	31​
16. Northern Iowa - Missouri Valley.	16​	83​
17. South Dakota State - Summit.	21​	126​
18. Buffalo - MAC.	15​	82​
19. Louisiana Tech - Conference USA	18​	99​
20. Missouri State - Missouri Valley	17​	84​
21. Morehead State - Ohio Valley	22​	128​
22. Saint Mary's - West Coast	5​	37​
23. Oral Roberts - Summit.	23​	156​
24. Ohio- MAC.	9​	60​

Nice work.

My projection is directly from the Busting Brackets site, so I can't take credit for the list.

I'm curious which teams on your source will rank ahead of the teams from the Busting Brackets rank.

Some examples:

• Grand Canyon - WAC: Junior point guard Javon Blacksher is their stud (12p, 5.4a), they return five rotation players, they have an excellent five-man transfer class led by Aidan Igiehon, Taeshon Cherry and Holland Woods and they've had two straight top-60 freshman classes.
• Vermont - American East: Four seniors returns for their extra year, making a total of NINE seniors in their rotation. Likely an all-senior starting lineup. Ryan Davis is their stud (18.5p, 6.3r) and their only rotation player leaving was Stef Smith to St. John's.
• Southern Utah - Big Sky: The team was 20-4 last season and the team basically returns their entire team including their top-four scorers, all of which average 12 ppg+. Their two opt-in extra year guys average a combined 26.4 ppg and their stud is former Illinois wing Tevian Jones (16.9 ppg).