Watching Tennessee and Oregon State is like watching a PAC12 game...

[DefenseBB]

Defense BB. How many Mcds AAs from this class of graduating Srs have been named AA this year?

For Tenn, both Mercedes Russell #1 in the 2013 class and Jaime Nared was #6 in 2014. I think it was said on the broadcast that Mercedes was the first #1 ranked recruit to never make All American in College...ouch. In fact, no basketball player recruited by Holly as the HC at Tennessee has made All-American. She had two players make it her first 2 years but they were recruited while Pat was there and played 2 and 3 years under her.

No I dont because that award means nothing as far as playing in college is concerned! It does not mean they will be successful at the college level now is it? OSU isnt out yet...they made FF in 2016 and who did they beat to get there, Baylor!

I hear you but my contention is it is a starting point and a pretty good starting point. All athletes develop and peak at different times in their lives due to physiology, emotional interest/drive and coaching. These players that are ranked in the top 24 are usually pretty vetted over the rankings vs those from 80 and above. And your point is valid in the respect talent can still drastically underperform, like at Baylor or Tennessee. However winning a National Championship is easier with top players on it than not. I think Notre Dame from 2001 was that last team without a McDonald's All-American. Ruth Riley was ranked something like 61. My point is for this year, there are teams with McD's AAs that are playing at a very high level especially in the Lexington Region-Louisville has 4/5, Baylor has 6 and Stanford has 6 so I just think it will be harder for Scott to beat both talent and other credible coaches.

Thanks for the dialogue. I have attached the 2014 HoopGurlz to show how effective this ranking was as it shows a "Who's who" of top players. Sure, there are a few "Who?" in there but for the most part the rankings got it right.
www.espn.com/high-school/girls-basketball/recruiting/rankings/_/class/2014

 

[DefenseBB]

Absolutely thrilled Tenn went down. Listening to Lockwood whine that "No way was Oregon State a 6 seed. If they are a 6 seed, I'd love to see what the 1-5 seeds are"... Waah waah waah. And the great thing is that Nared and Russell were the best 2 players on the team. Losing them will result in a step backwards next season.

I don't know how happy the non-seniors are on the team, but Russell and Westbrook have to look at the 2 Oregon programs that are both better than Tenn right now, especially Oregon, and wonder "did I make the right decision???"

Well, #1- I am sorry you actually clicked play on that post; #2-he was hired by Holly, so do you really think she hired someone with more knowledge and logic than herself? #3-Louisville, Baylor, Stanford and Missouri are the answers to his question. #4-The team still has plenty of talent there and coming in. The "claim" now by this staff is "Russell, who was there for 5 years and Nared 4 years were All-SEC players", which is a far cry from the days of All-Americans regularly trotted out on the court and as noted above, Russell as the #1 in 2013 is the first #1 ranked player to never make an AA team. She shows skill but she doesn't have that edge to truly be successful-say like a Wilson, Williams, Nurse and our developing Z.

 

[dogged1]

For choosing TN, absolutely.


Nah, I think playing for TN and Warlick is punishment enough.


Probably would have been a smart choice for them. At least from a basketball perspective. Depends on where they would have transferred. But if they would have gotten to a place with better coaching and a better chance at winning...probably not a bad idea.


Ummm, I don't believe shizam chose TN.

There's making mistakes and poor choices, and then there's choosing TN.

Yes, yes they are. They will always be McD AA's, for the rest of their lives. Just underachieving ones.

I was once an McDonald's All-American, now I work at one. Do you want to supersize that?

You are a wicked man meyers7, a very wicked man. It was wrong, but I couldn't stop laughing. What shall I do for a penance?

 

[Bigpetunia]

Players, their coaches, and their parents were all gullible. Someone's got to be mature enough to make a reasonable decision. When I hear Holly's presser, I think: how is she capable of selling anything? how are these kids and their support systems buying it? If they chose TN because they like the proximity to home or the academic programs, terrific. But clearly, the school presents its WCBB as having the highest aspirations, and for kids with the same aspirations, they have to be able to see through the pretense.

Bags, I think that yours is an interesting perspective (as I usually do), but, on this occasion, I must demur (as I usually don’t). I think “pretense” is just not the right word.
Allow me to preface my remarks by saying that I, unlike so many here, am not a Rocky Top hater. I think the antipathy so often expressed here is rooted in ancient history that no longer has any relevance. I admired Pat S. For the program she built, and was fully prepared to cut some slack for her eventual successor, as I would for anyone who has the unenviable task of following a legend. Granted, in this case the successor turned out to be particularly hapless, but clearly well-motivated. I just think, or wish to think, that programs that reach such elite levels can continue, based on history, tradition, etc., to attract talented kids who want their names associated with such programs even after the “legendary” creators of those programs disappear.
I want to believe this especially because, on some dreaded day in what we all hope will be the distant future, our own legendary creator will be gone. When that day comes, anyone, ANYONE who is awarded the unenviable task of replacing him is doomed to almost certain “failure” by comparison. I hope that talented recruits will still view UConn’s program as one to which they wish to attach themselves, and one to which they want to play a part in restoring it to what I fear, at that point in time, will be regarded as its former glory. If they choose thusly, I don’t think they will do so as a result if pretense or deception, but out of genuine respect for the tradition. I sincerely expect that Geno’s eventual successor will not prove to be similarly hapless, but our own fate as ardent fans is part of a great unknown, and maybe not so rosy!

 

[Ron and Vida]

I agree with your sentiment 100%, although they do have some MDAA's on their team. Far fewer that Tenn though. But I agree. If watching Mercedes Russell's tears at the end of that game didn't move you, well, you're one stone hearted person. Her and Jaime are 2 fine young women, and Russell saved her best game of the year for the last.

For me the outcome wasn't expected. I predicted earlier in the year that Tenn would lose in the second round to a far less talented but disciplined team, and it proved true. It seems the Pac 12 once again this year will prove itself to be at least the second best conference in WCBB. And congrats to one of my very favorite coaches in CBB, Scott Rueck for continuing to build a culture of excellence there.

Thanks for the post. It was moving to see Russell in tears no matter where our loyalty lies.

 

[bags27]

Bags, I think that yours is an interesting perspective (as I usually do), but, on this occasion, I must demur (as I usually don’t). I think “pretense” is just not the right word.
Allow me to preface my remarks by saying that I, unlike so many here, am not a Rocky Top hater. I think the antipathy so often expressed here is rooted in ancient history that no longer has any relevance. I admired Pat S. For the program she built, and was fully prepared to cut some slack for her eventual successor, as I would for anyone who has the unenviable task of following a legend. Granted, in this case the successor turned out to be particularly hapless, but clearly well-motivated. I just think, or wish to think, that programs that reach such elite levels can continue, based on history, tradition, etc., to attract talented kids who want their names associated with such programs even after the “legendary” creators of those programs disappear.
I want to believe this especially because, on some dreaded day in what we all hope will be the distant future, our own legendary creator will be gone. When that day comes, anyone, ANYONE who is awarded the unenviable task of replacing him is doomed to almost certain “failure” by comparison. I hope that talented recruits will still view UConn’s program as one to which they wish to attach themselves, and one to which they want to play a part in restoring it to what I fear, at that point in time, will be regarded as its former glory. If they choose thusly, I don’t think they will do so as a result if pretense or deception, but out of genuine respect for the tradition. I sincerely expect that Geno’s eventual successor will not prove to be similarly hapless, but our own fate as ardent fans is part of a great unknown, and maybe not so rosy!

Thanks so much for this Bigpetunia. I agree with a lot of it and take your point. But also: Holly has been coaching for 6 years now and, despite getting quality players, the program has never managed to achieve excellence. She was never a head coach elsewhere before then and so, between her lack of previous experience and her current poor track record, players who last year (after her 5th season as HC) committed for this season were really ignoring the reality of the situation. Geno's successor will, indeed, have a very hard act to follow. If she/he doesn't achieve reasonable success within 3 or 4 seasons tops, not only should we expect recruiting to drop off, but also the AD to think hard about the position.

 

[dogged1]

Bags, I think that yours is an interesting perspective (as I usually do), but, on this occasion, I must demur (as I usually don’t). I think “pretense” is just not the right word.
Allow me to preface my remarks by saying that I, unlike so many here, am not a Rocky Top hater. I think the antipathy so often expressed here is rooted in ancient history that no longer has any relevance. I admired Pat S. For the program she built, and was fully prepared to cut some slack for her eventual successor, as I would for anyone who has the unenviable task of following a legend. Granted, in this case the successor turned out to be particularly hapless, but clearly well-motivated. I just think, or wish to think, that programs that reach such elite levels can continue, based on history, tradition, etc., to attract talented kids who want their names associated with such programs even after the “legendary” creators of those programs disappear.
I want to believe this especially because, on some dreaded day in what we all hope will be the distant future, our own legendary creator will be gone. When that day comes, anyone, ANYONE who is awarded the unenviable task of replacing him is doomed to almost certain “failure” by comparison. I hope that talented recruits will still view UConn’s program as one to which they wish to attach themselves, and one to which they want to play a part in restoring it to what I fear, at that point in time, will be regarded as its former glory. If they choose thusly, I don’t think they will do so as a result if pretense or deception, but out of genuine respect for the tradition. I sincerely expect that Geno’s eventual successor will not prove to be similarly hapless, but our own fate as ardent fans is part of a great unknown, and maybe not so rosy!

Bigpetunia, Bags is completely capable of defending his point of view so I will leave that to him, but...

I am going to start out by saying the same thing you did, I almost always agree with your post but this time I must object. While the emnity may be a part of ancient history an equivalency between the transition from Pat Summitt to Holly Warlick and a future transition from Geno Aurema to a successor will have little in common. I am not talking about win/loss records.

I could not in my wildest imagining conceive of Geno attempting to besmirch or destroy a rival who had the audacity to compete with and eventually sur

Thanks so much for this Bigpetunia. I agree with a lot of it and take your point. But also: Holly has been coaching for 6 years now and, despite getting quality players, the program has never managed to achieve excellence. She was never a head coach elsewhere before then and so, between her lack of previous experience and her current poor track record, players who last year (after her 5th season as HC) committed for this season were really ignoring the reality of the situation. Geno's successor will, indeed, have a very hard act to follow. If she/he doesn't achieve reasonable success within 3 or 4 seasons tops, not only should we expect recruiting to drop off, but also the AD to think hard about the position.

Isn't that exactly what happened to K.O.?

 

[JordyG]

For choosing TN, absolutely.


Nah, I think playing for TN and Warlick is punishment enough.


Probably would have been a smart choice for them. At least from a basketball perspective. Depends on where they would have transferred. But if they would have gotten to a place with better coaching and a better chance at winning...probably not a bad idea.


Ummm, I don't believe shizam chose TN.

There's making mistakes and poor choices, and then there's choosing TN.

How glib.

 

[JordyG]

You are a wicked man meyers7, a very wicked man. It was wrong, but I couldn't stop laughing. What shall I do for a penance?

Send him a bottle of holy water and some garlic.

 

[dogged1]

Send him a bottle of holy water and some garlic.

Wait, isn't that for stopping a vampire? Where you headed with this?

 

[meyers7]

You are a wicked man meyers7, a very wicked man. It was wrong, but I couldn't stop laughing. What shall I do for a penance?

2 Hail Meyers should suffice.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Well, #1- I am sorry you actually clicked play on that post; #2-he was hired by Holly, so do you really think she hired someone with more knowledge and logic than herself? #3-Louisville, Baylor, Stanford and Missouri are the answers to his question. #4-The team still has plenty of talent there and coming in. The "claim" now by this staff is "Russell, who was there for 5 years and Nared 4 years were All-SEC players", which is a far cry from the days of All-Americans regularly trotted out on the court and as noted above, Russell as the #1 in 2013 is the first #1 ranked player to never make an AA team. She shows skill but she doesn't have that edge to truly be successful-say like a Wilson, Williams, Nurse and our developing Z.

Hadn't seen Lockwood's comments... wow... complaining Oregon State is a heavyweight..... they have no all stars.... their program based on organic growth.... in fact... 3 all stars from its home state of Oregon rated in the top 6 in the country in their classes.... decided to go to Tennessee..... Oregon State did not blink.... they just got other players and coached them up... Dean coaches the post players... he has the #1 overall player in 2013 class and #6 overall in 2014.... that should mean a decided advantage vs. opponent with largely unranked players... but instead he sounds like Lou Holtz during the lead up to the Air Force game.... makes the opponent sound like national champions

 

[meyers7]

How glib.

 

[meyers7]

Send him a bottle of holy water and some garlic.

I do like garlic.

 

[JordyG]

I do like garlic.

I wish sarcasm was available as a font.

 

[DefenseBB]

Isn't that exactly what happened to K.O.?[/QUOTE]
No, KO didn't recruit particularly well and incomprehensibly drew another inquiry into the program by the NCAA over another potential set of violation. I actually think Holly and KO's skills were the opposite-KO could actually coach a bit as evidenced by winning a NC but was a bit lazy on the recruiting front, while Holly was pretty good on the recruiting as talent is consistently showing up 6 years later but her x's and o's and her developing/evolving skills on the players is non-existent. She still managed some pretty good numbers 154-53 record.

 

[JordyG]

Wait, isn't that for stopping a vampire? Where you headed with this?

Wicked is wicked. Perhaps I should have said throw a bucket of water on him or shoot him with a silver bullet. Any and all will work.

 

[nwhoopfan]

She still managed some pretty good numbers 154-53 record.

This is some very good evidence for the case that talent matters. We all agree Holly is a terrible coach, yet she's won nearly 75% of the games she's coached. Also reached the Elite 8 3 times I think.

 

[wallman]

I believe OSU won the game, on Tennessee's home court. You can call out any stat you want, but that is one stat. The stat that matters is the final score.

You were talking about individual players not who won. I just state them as the facts they are.

 

[mbr33ct]

In Holly's case, IMO it's the 53 losses that has Vol Nation gathering at Frankenstein castle. In 6 years she has lost, on average, 9 games (8.8 actual) per year. This with the AA's she has had.

 

[CocoHusky]

This is some very good evidence for the case that talent matters. We all agree Holly is a terrible coach, yet she's won nearly 75% of the games she's coached. Also reached the Elite 8 3 times I think.

This is also a clear case where:

 

[DefenseBB]

And now the national press is taking notice of the Holly situation-Mechelle Voepel adding the gasoline to the fire.

Enjoy as I have!
Is Tennessee coach Holly Warlick on the hot seat?

 

[Rocket009]

And now the national press is taking notice of the Holly situation-Mechelle Voepel adding the gasoline to the fire.

Enjoy as I have!
Is Tennessee coach Holly Warlick on the hot seat?

It's hard to enjoy. I want Holly to continue to coach there for ever. TN deserves that.

 

[LoTrader]

You were talking about individual players not who won. I just state them as the facts they are.

You singled out one (1) fact, while leaving out the rest of the facts. What was the rest of Pivec's line against Tennessee? Did you even watch the game? Did you notice who scored the 1st 7 points for OSU. "Stating" a single fact while leaving out the rest of the facts is unbecoming of a boneyard contributor.

 

[wallman]

You singled out one (1) fact, while leaving out the rest of the facts. What was the rest of Pivec's line against Tennessee? Did you even watch the game? Did you notice who scored the 1st 7 points for OSU. "Stating" a single fact while leaving out the rest of the facts is unbecoming of a boneyard contributor.

I could care less. But I hate turnovers, its not Pivecs fault she couldn't handle Tenn pressure, she is not a PG.