USF and UCF to Big XII Imminent?

[upstater]

I think what he was trying to say is that if the C7 have negotiated a reduction of benefits due in exchange for no exit fee and no waiting period, ND would join them in leaving the BE and stay for a year to take advantage of that deal.

Yeah, but, it would be a fine world if everyone could just do whatever the hell it wanted. But sometimes contracts get in the way.

 

[CL82]

Don't forget there is a 27 month period for exiting the BE. Notre Dame is not only slated to be in our conference for 2013-2014, but also 2014-2015. If it wants out, it has to pay up. Nor can it leave for the C7. It is not in that grouping of schools.

This wasn't my assertion, I only restated it, but why not? IF it joins the Catholics, why would the fact that it is listed separately in the by-laws matter? I thought that the Catholics leverage was because of numbers, not because of any special contract right. I think the strongest argument against is that ND had already left before the Catholics. It can't go back in time and rescind the earlier resignation to get a more favorable deal. Just curious what your thoughts are.

 

[upstater]

I meant avoiding an ACC exit fee, not avoiding a BigEast exit fee. Perhaps I am not understanding your post.

I'm just speculating here but what ND is trying to do is avoid a BE exit fee by pretending the league has dissolved and that it is still part of the Big East. ND is locked into UConn's conference until 2014-2015 unless it pays more than its $5 million exit fee. But ND is trying to pretend the conference has dissolved and that it is no longer part of UConn's conference.

 

[upstater]

Why not. IF it joins the Catholics, why would the fact that it is listed separately in the by-laws matter.

Because the bylaws treat the Catholics as different entities than Notre Dame, with different responsibilities and entitlements. Which means Notre Dame is responsible for exit fees. The Catholics are not. The bylaws literally state that should the 7 Catholic schools decide to leave the Big East as one group, they are not beholden to exit fees. If one of the Catholics decided to stay behind, say Georgetown, then all of them would have had to pay exit fees in order to leave the Big East. Notre Dame was not a part of that group. It agreed to pay exit fees should it elect to leave the conference. Not only that but ND announced it was leaving the conference for the ACC long before the Catholic schools formed their own conference.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This wasn't my assertion, I only restated it, but why not? IF it joins the Catholics, why would the fact that it is listed separately in the by-laws matter? I thought that the Catholics leverage was because of numbers, not because of any special contract right. I think the strongest argument against is that ND had already left before the Catholics. It can't go back in time and rescind the earlier resignation to get a more favorable deal. Just curious what your thoughts are.

I think it was a special contract rider that said that the non-football playing schools could all leave together with no exit fee. Whether Notre Dame is considered one of them or not, I do not know.

 

[nojokea4]

I'm just speculating here but what ND is trying to do is avoid a BE exit fee by pretending the league has dissolved and that it is still part of the Big East. ND is locked into UConn's conference until 2014-2015 unless it pays more than its $5 million exit fee. But ND is trying to pretend the conference has dissolved and that it is no longer part of UConn's conference.

That makes more sense than the WV guys.

 

[upstater]

This wasn't my assertion, I only restated it, but why not? IF it joins the Catholics, why would the fact that it is listed separately in the by-laws matter? I thought that the Catholics leverage was because of numbers, not because of any special contract right. I think the strongest argument against is that ND had already left before the Catholics. It can't go back in time and rescind the earlier resignation to get a more favorable deal. Just curious what your thoughts are.

Actually, the Catholics didn't have leverage because of numbers. They couldn't dissolve the conference with their numbers. Their only leverage was their contractual rights. The Catholics never held a gun to anyone's head in this because they didn't have any bullets. They took what was theirs and then paid for the rest.

Here is some of the language on that:


“The second option would be to simply vote to dissolve the league. The Catholic schools have 7 of the 10 votes which is the 2/3 majority they would need to pass such legislation. But a clause in that by-law requires at least two of the dissolving votes to be football school members.”

See link here:
http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4272#more-4272

Even more:
http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=606580&page=2

1. The Big East CAN be dissolved by the basketball-only members between now and July 1st. Temple does NOT have a vote on this. Why? Because under section 12.01, conference dissolution can be approved by 2/3 of the conference “Directors”, and because “Directors” are defined in section 3.01 as CEOs of conference “Members”, and because under section 14.01(b) Temple is a “Football Affiliate” this year rather than a “Member” (because it only plays football in the conference). Moreover, section 14.01© explicitly states that “The CEO of a Sports Affiliate [e.g. a Football Affiliate] shall not be a Director of the Conference.”

2. On the other hand, despite having a 2/3 voting majority of “Directors” between now and July 1st, the basketball-only members CANNOT convert the Big East to a non-football conference. That’s because section 3.01 defines any matter relating to participation in football as a “Football Action”, and goes on to say that any vote on a matter constituting a “Football Action” requires majority approval from the Directors of the schools that play football and all other sports within the conference (referred to as the “Division I-A School Directors”). So discontinuing football participation would presumably require a majority vote from among the CEOs of UConn, Cincinnati and USF.

 

[CL82]

Because the bylaws treat the Catholics as different entities than Notre Dame, with different responsibilities and entitlements. Which means Notre Dame is responsible for exit fees. The Catholics are not. The bylaws literally state that should the 7 Catholic schools decide to leave the Big East as one group, they are not beholden to exit fees. If one of the Catholics decided to stay behind, say Georgetown, then all of them would have had to pay exit fees in order to leave the Big East. Notre Dame was not a part of that group. It agreed to pay exit fees should it elect to leave the conference. Not only that but ND announced it was leaving the conference for the ACC long before the Catholic schools formed their own conference.

Ok I did not realize this. I thought the right was conveyed based upon x # of schools in the conference, not the C7 group specifically.

 

[jostar1]

Thank you for adding the quotes. Doesn't that undercut the idea, e.g. if no one will be subject to exit fee why would ND hide out in the C7 to avoid the exit fee?

Those guys are creative, but they fling things at walls a lot.

They're talking about the ACC exit fee. ND would hide out in the C7 to avoid the Big East exit fee. It would buy them some time to see if anything happens to the ACC, or find out if the ACC exit fee is unenforceable. I think that's the theory, anyway.

 

[whaler11]

Why would this scare or force Florida State's hand at all?

Florida State is never leaving the ACC unless it implodes.

What the Big XII and USF/UCF do has no bearing on FSU.

FSU is one of the few schools in FBS that I don't think have to worry about being left out.

Well I guess if you sold FSU on the idea they would have the fourth most money in their own state they would have to think again. I can't believe they would take it seriously but I guess you could float a rumor for that purpose.

 

[nojokea4]

They're talking about the ACC exit fee. ND would hide out in the C7 to avoid the Big East exit fee. It would buy them some time to see if anything happens to the ACC, or find out if the ACC exit fee is unenforceable. I think that's the theory, anyway.

Yes, that is how I took it. I was not clear enough though as to which exit fee I referred.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

ND to the C7 is plausible if unlikely. I find the USF & UCF to Bevo Conference pure attention seeking to drive page views of their blogs.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I will take a all over myself if USF and UCF are invited to the Big 12 before FSU/Miami/and or Clemson are added or taken elsewhere.

 

[partial]

I will take a all over myself if USF and UCF are invited to the Big 12 before FSU/Miami/and or Clemson are added or taken elsewhere.

How would you do that, some sort of headstand?

 

[jostar1]

The following was posted by a ND fan on the WVU board. I haven't been able to locate the article that he provides the link for.

"Big East rules allow schools to leave as a group without being obligated to pay exit fees, which is exactly what Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Seton Hall, St. John’s, DePaul and Providence are doing.

“We withdrew under the same agreement that the seven basketball schools withdrew under,” Swarbrick said. “We don’t owe any withdrawal fee — never have. It’s not in dispute; never has been. The nature of that separate agreement provides that we don’t. It’s a different dynamic with us. We’re not trying to negotiate a withdrawal fee; there isn’t one.”

http://notredame.247sports.com/Article/Notre-Dame- AD-Jack-Swarbrick-considering-early-Big-East-exit- 107216

Apparently, the only issue is the 27 month waiting period:


"The question all along has been whether or not Swarbrick would comply with Big East bylaws, which requires 27 months notice in order to leave the Big East without penalty, or go ahead and join the ACC next fall. However, Swarbrick revealed Monday that Notre Dame is not subject to early-exit penalties like the ones recently negotiated for Pittsburgh, Syracuse and West Virginia."

 

[upstater]

The following was posted by a ND fan on the WVU board. I haven't been able to locate the article that he provides the link for.

"Big East rules allow schools to leave as a group without being obligated to pay exit fees, which is exactly what Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Seton Hall, St. John’s, DePaul and Providence are doing.

“We withdrew under the same agreement that the seven basketball schools withdrew under,” Swarbrick said. “We don’t owe any withdrawal fee — never have. It’s not in dispute; never has been. The nature of that separate agreement provides that we don’t. It’s a different dynamic with us. We’re not trying to negotiate a withdrawal fee; there isn’t one.”

http://notredame.247sports.com/Article/Notre-Dame- AD-Jack-Swarbrick-considering-early-Big-East-exit- 107216

Apparently, the only issue is the 27 month waiting period:


"The question all along has been whether or not Swarbrick would comply with Big East bylaws, which requires 27 months notice in order to leave the Big East without penalty, or go ahead and join the ACC next fall. However, Swarbrick revealed Monday that Notre Dame is not subject to early-exit penalties like the ones recently negotiated for Pittsburgh, Syracuse and West Virginia."

The article literally makes no sense since it says ND has to give 27 months notice, and then it says ND isn't subject to early exit penalties. So, then, what's the notice for?

Swarbrick is right that ND can leave as a group since ND is a group within the BE, but if he expects to leave before the notice is up, he has to pay a penalty.

Someone will have to explain to me what he means about the 27 month waiting period and the lack of an early exit penalty.

 

[WestHartHusk]

The article literally makes no sense since it says ND has to give 27 months notice, and then it says ND isn't subject to early exit penalties. So, then, what's the notice for?

Swarbrick is right that ND can leave as a group since ND is a group within the BE, but if he expects to leave before the notice is up, he has to pay a penalty.

Someone will have to explain to me what he means about the 27 month waiting period and the lack of an early exit penalty.

Upstater - you have to cut the guy some slack, to work at ND it is a requirement that you have the ability to gloss over inconsistencies in your core documents.

 

[upstater]

And by the way, we read quotes from Aresco's office which were very threatening in terms of the CYO7s doings with Notre Dame, so it's clear that Aresco believes ND is dealing with him, not the CYO7.

 

[upstater]

Upstater - you have to cut the guy some slack, to work at ND it is a requirement that you have the ability to gloss over inconsistencies in your core documents.

Very true. But when you see it in print, you have to wonder if these guys totally believe their own swill.

As I wrote earlier, if he wants out before 2015, he is subject to an exit fee.

 

[WestHartHusk]

No doubt.

But what do you think about this: right now there are three schools for L'Ville, RU & ND to negotiate exit fees with - UConn, Cinci, USF. Do you think we have even broached, through back-channels, waiving the fees & early penalties if they help us and one other find our way out of this mess by July?

I know there is some ethical issues involved in this, but quite honestly we have millions of short-term leverage on all three that we would be remiss on not trying to exploit.

 

[upstater]

No doubt.

But what do you think about this: right now there are three schools for L'Ville, RU & ND to negotiate exit fees with - UConn, Cinci, USF. Do you think we have even broached, through back-channels, waiving the fees & early penalties if they help us and one other find our way out of this mess by July?

I know there is some ethical issues involved in this, but quite honestly we have millions of short-term leverage on all three that we would be remiss on not trying to exploit.

No, because those schools are basically powerless.

 

[jostar1]

The article literally makes no sense since it says ND has to give 27 months notice, and then it says ND isn't subject to early exit penalties. So, then, what's the notice for?

Swarbrick is right that ND can leave as a group since ND is a group within the BE, but if he expects to leave before the notice is up, he has to pay a penalty.

Someone will have to explain to me what he means about the 27 month waiting period and the lack of an early exit penalty.

I found the link to the article:
http://notredame.247sports.com/Arti...rbrick-considering-early-Big-East-exit-107216

I agree that it doesn't seem to be correct and if they leave early, they have to pay a penalty.

Note: This article is from December.