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USA vs Canada

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JSB60 said:
I loved what I saw from Nurse, even though her shot was off. For a freshman who hasn't played a college game yet to guard Whalen and Diggins without getting burned is impressive.

Stef is not effective at this level, at least not yet. Stewie is.
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Stef appears to be most interested in having fun.
She needs to take her defense much more seriously.
 
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Perhaps some are being a little hard on Stef. She certainly tries to lighten the mood and have fun. Perhaps a little more so than some would want. But it is also true that her teammates (past and present) seem to enjoy her personality. All of that is not to be confused with not taking her game seriously. We saw her reshape her body through hard work while at UConn. Geno said that she was one of the most consistent and hard workers at practice. She was a leader of the UConn team. Those are not attributes of a person who is most interested in having fun.
 
I honestly thought that the reason both Sims and Diggins were given so much playing time is that the committee was taking a good hard look at both of them in various combinations with other guards and other players

Maybe my view is a little prejudiced (to be fair) and likely I've missed some things because of my vantage point sitting on the floor but I thought Odyssey acquitted herself well. And she was running the offense it appeared to be more in sync, with good passing and floor spacing whereas Diggins, especially when she first came on appeared to dribble like a mad woman looking for her shot before she thought to pass. Subsequently the offense was not very pretty and in disarray. She did calm down a little bit as time went on.
Defensively both did pretty well and Skyler did have some success with her poke from behind tactic when the other team got ahead of her.

If I can I'm going to watch the game again but I'm glad I don't have to decide between the two but if I did I'd probably go with Sims.
 
Personally, I would take both Diggins and Sims and leave Bird out. The team will have veteran leaders at guard in Taurasi and Whalen. Why not give two young guards who will be with USA basketball for a long time some valuable experience?
 
Orangutan said:
Personally, I would take both Diggins and Sims and leave Bird out. The team will have veteran leaders at guard in Taurasi and Whalen. Why not give two young guards who will be with USA basketball for a long time some valuable experience?
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Their time will come.

Bird is not using a walker yet.
 
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Orangutan said:
Personally, I would take both Diggins and Sims and leave Bird out. The team will have veteran leaders at guard in Taurasi and Whalen. Why not give two young guards who will be with USA basketball for a long time some valuable experience?
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Because I've seen nothing to suggest either is ready to run the team the way it should be run at a world championship/olympic level and at a level Geno wants which includes getting the ball to the right player at the right time. One should make the team to get the experience of what it takes just like Sue Bird made the team and learned from Dawn Staley. It's pretty clear Sue Bird is the leader of this team and Taurasi will soon be right next to her assuming those responsibilities.
 
UConnCat said:
Because I've seen nothing to suggest either is ready to run the team the way it should be run at a world championship/olympic level and at a level Geno wants which includes getting the ball to the right player at the right time. One should make the team to get the experience of what it takes just like Sue Bird made the team and learned from Dawn Staley. It's pretty clear Sue Bird is the leader of this team and Taurasi will soon be right next to her assuming those responsibilities.
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Couldn't have said it better-right pass at the right time is undervalued and not always given importance to.
 
USA is really lucky to have Bird Whalen and DT who all have the ability to lead the team exactly the way Geno wants it led. Neither Sims nor Diggins is ready for that yet and that is what this year is all about. The other guard that I assume is joining USA with a chance of being selected in the 12 player team is Vandersloot who may not have the scoring ability of either Sims or Diggins, but has the advantage of having trained with USA for 3 years under Geno and playing two years of international basketball in Turkey and Croatia.
 
UConnCat said:
It's pretty clear Sue Bird is the leader of this team
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If the team has a captain, Sue seemed to be it when she came out to deliver the "welcome/thanks for your support" introduction before the game. Don't know whether that was televised.
 
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2014 WNBA stats:
Bird: 1.77 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 12.5 PER, 0.2 Win Shares, 48.4% True Shooting%, 44.5% effective field goal percentage
Diggins: 1.75 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 21.3 PER, 3.9 Win Shares, 50.0% True Shooting% 45.4 % effective field goal percentage

I know that Bird is more comfortable in the USA basketball environment, but from a pure statistical point of view Diggins is the better player right now.
 
Orangutan said:
2014 WNBA stats:
Bird: 1.77 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 12.5 PER, 0.2 Win Shares, 48.4% True Shooting%, 44.5% effective field goal percentage
Diggins: 1.75 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 21.3 PER, 3.9 Win Shares, 50.0% True Shooting% 45.4 % effective field goal percentage

I know that Bird is more comfortable in the USA basketball environment, but from a pure statistical point of view Diggins is the better player right now.
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I don't care about the WNBA stats and I can guarantee you USA BB doesn't either. The job is not to run the Tulsa Shock or handle the ball a lot looking for her shot or take the most shots on the team. That's what Diggins did this past season for Tulsa and to her credit she did it much better than in her rookie season. She'll be asked to manage the offense of Team USA in a way Geno can trust. I've seen no evidence to suggest that Diggins knows how to run this team as well as Bird or Whalen. That's not to say Diggins is not better than Bird right now at doing certain things offensively (penetrate and finish at the basket tho that's never been a Bird strength) but that's not what Team USA is looking for in its point guard.
 
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Orangutan said:
2014 WNBA stats:
Bird: 1.77 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 12.5 PER, 0.2 Win Shares, 48.4% True Shooting%, 44.5% effective field goal percentage
Diggins: 1.75 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 21.3 PER, 3.9 Win Shares, 50.0% True Shooting% 45.4 % effective field goal percentage

I know that Bird is more comfortable in the USA basketball environment, but from a pure statistical point of view Diggins is the better player right now.
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Yeah, well ... a one year picture is interesting, and I am sure that Diggins will have better stats than Bird over the next decade (because Bird will retire in a few years) but for the USA national team I put Bird's chance of being selected at 99.9% and Diggins' at about 30%. Ask me in two years and that may change dramatically but I will take the player with 2 NCAA titles, 2 WNBA titles, 3 WC medals, 3 Olympic Golds, and 5 Euro trophies and is still playing very well over the player who hasn't won anything yet and as far as I can see has no adult international experience - did she really not play overseas this past year?
 
For my own amusement, at games I keep track of what I consider outstanding plays and plays that are bad or dumb. Outstanding gets a +1, bad gets a -1. Scoring seldom gets a + or - unless its really, really good (Diana's shot clinching the title for the Mercury would garner a +1) or really, really dumb (dribbling into multiple taller coverage and trying to put up a shot for no reason) would get a minus. Made or missed normal shots taken by a pro are given no plus or minus. My scoring is simply what my eyes tell me at the time of the play, no more, no less. Obviously the minutes played will impact my totals (more time for a plus or minus). Have fun with the following:

Players with net pluses list in order most to least:
Moore
Nurse
Whalen

Players with equal pluses and minuses (or none of either):
Charles, Augustus and McBride

Players with a net minus listed most to least:
Diggens
McCoughtry
Bird
Dolson, Stewart, Ogwumike, Lavender (each of this four barely made the minus column at -1);

Yes I know, I should get a better pair of glasses. :(
 
Orangutan said:
2014 WNBA stats:
Bird: 1.77 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 12.5 PER, 0.2 Win Shares, 48.4% True Shooting%, 44.5% effective field goal percentage
Diggins: 1.75 to 1 assist-turnover ratio, 21.3 PER, 3.9 Win Shares, 50.0% True Shooting% 45.4 % effective field goal percentage

I know that Bird is more comfortable in the USA basketball environment, but from a pure statistical point of view Diggins is the better player right now.
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The most important role of the PG on USA senior national team is get the ball to your teammates in the right places at the right time and don't turn it over. You don't have to score.

Bird last night was only one of three who did not score, but she had 3 assists, 2 steals, and of her 2 TOs, I know 1 was a pass that Sims apologized for cutting the wrong way on.

Bird, Whalen, Taurasi....Geno said he's lucky to have three veteran guards he can trust.
 
DishNSwish said:
The most important role of the PG on USA senior national team is get the ball to your teammates in the right places at the right time and don't turn it over. You don't have to score.

Bird last night was only one of three who did not score, but she had 3 assists, 2 steals, and of her 2 TOs, I know 1 was a pass that Sims apologized for cutting the wrong way on.

Bird, Whalen, Taurasi....Geno said he's lucky to have three veteran guards he can trust.
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Any updates on BG's ability to travel? After she had the surgery she was not allowed to travel for two days but was then released to travel to and from Chicago.
 
easttexastrash said:
Any updates on BG's ability to travel? After she had the surgery she was not allowed to travel for two days but was then released to travel to and from Chicago.
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No word yet, not this morning
 
DishNSwish said:
The most important role of the PG on USA senior national team is get the ball to your teammates in the right places at the right time and don't turn it over. You don't have to score.

Bird last night was only one of three who did not score, but she had 3 assists, 2 steals, and of her 2 TOs, I know 1 was a pass that Sims apologized for cutting the wrong way on.

Bird, Whalen, Taurasi....Geno said he's lucky to have three veteran guards he can trust.
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Compared to Sims' 2 assist, 2 steals and 1 TO...plus 9 points. I fail to see where Bird was more effective at PG than either Diggins or Sims. Diggins had 3 assists, 3 steals, 3 rebounds, 6 points and only 1 TO. And the defensive havoc that Sims and Diggins created is not something that Bird brings to the table.

Geno commented that the "young guns" brought an energy to the team but that he may want experience over "talent." So maybe they don't both make the team but Geno basically said that the "young guns" outplayed some of the veterans.
 
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Orangutan said:
Personally, I would take both Diggins and Sims and leave Bird out. The team will have veteran leaders at guard in Taurasi and Whalen. Why not give two young guards who will be with USA basketball for a long time some valuable experience?
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Leave Bird out? No
 
DishNSwish said:
The most important role of the PG on USA senior national team is get the ball to your teammates in the right places at the right time and don't turn it over. You don't have to score.

Bird last night was only one of three who did not score, but she had 3 assists, 2 steals, and of her 2 TOs, I know 1 was a pass that Sims apologized for cutting the wrong way on.

Bird, Whalen, Taurasi....Geno said he's lucky to have three veteran guards he can trust.
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Diggins had 3 assists and 3 steals, with just one turnover. Very similar WNBA assist-turnover ratio to Bird. Playing pass-first isn't her natural style, but I think she can do it.

Sorry folks, I won't belabor the point any longer. They're both fabulous players. Really can't go wrong either way.
 
easttexastrash said:
Compared to Sims' 2 assist, 2 steals and 1 TO...plus 9 points. I fail to see where Bird was more effective at PG than either Diggins or Sims. Diggins had 3 assists, 3 steals, 3 rebounds, 6 points and only 1 TO. And the defensive havoc that Sims and Diggins created is not something that Bird brings to the table.

Geno commented that the "young guns" brought an energy to the team but that he may want experience over "talent." So maybe they don't both make the team but Geno basically said that the "young guns" outplayed some of the veterans.
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You really can't judge what Diggins and Sims in 15 and 17 minutes did compared to Bird, 17 minutes, because it was a scrimmage with so many subs and combos, plus the coaches gave them different roles..

They also played together a lot of the time, which they are used to, so the familiarity definitely came into play, and they pressed and trapped, which Bird's unit did not.

One will go, the other probably won't between Diggins and Sims, and they SHOULD bring one PG. Even Sue said she's trying to be Dawn Staley to their Sue Bird.

It's really easy to look past the vets because they've been there. Don't forget earlier in the week Geno said there is a HUGE dropoff from the experienced players and the youngsters.
 
Making USA isn't based on 1 game. It's a fit. The fit comes from many avenues, off court, practice, chemistry, following direction, understanding the goals of the coach and USA. Stats have little to do with the big picture when a stat can result from a player doing something the coach didn't want them to do ie overplaying or poking the ball from behind. A player can score a spectacular shot in the eyes of the crowd but when that player did not run what they were supposed to run it becomes a negative in the eyes of the coach and USA!
 
Kibitzer said:
Coming on this board and suggesting that two players from the hinterlands are better than Sue Bird is like going into New York City and advocating that A-Rod is more deserving of Hall of Fame induction than Derek Jeter.
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good analogy
 
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Kibitzer said:
Coming on this board and suggesting that two players from the hinterlands are better than Sue Bird is like going into New York City and advocating that A-Rod is more deserving of Hall of Fame induction than Derek Jeter.
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I know, I know. Fools errand.

Just thought I'd try to spark some discussion/shouting me down.
 
As Oragnutan pointed out, anyone who is chosen will be more than capable of bringing home gold for the US. If the PGs are Whalen, Sims and Diggins, the US will still win the gold, so why not bring the young talent on now for the experience since they will be the PGs of the future. It should be interesting to see how things play out with all of the "unavailable" players for the US. I think that after the next set of exhibition games we will know if Sims and Diggins are able to bring something to the table that other players cannot.
 
easttexastrash said:
As Oragnutan pointed out, anyone who is chosen will be more than capable of bringing home gold for the US. If the PGs are Whalen, Sims and Diggins, the US will still win the gold, so why not bring the young talent on now for the experience since they will be the PGs of the future. It should be interesting to see how things play out with all of the "unavailable" players for the US.
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That goes both ways...

If they can win gold now without experience, why can't they do it then?

So then by your logic, when they get their turn in 2016 or beyond, they will be more than capable of bringing home gold then.

What's the point in giving them the experience now and strip someone who has been part of USA Basketball since 2002 from a final go around?
 
DishNSwish said:
That goes both ways...

If they can win gold now without experience, why can't they do it then?

So then by your logic, when they get their turn in 2016 or beyond, they will be more than capable of bringing home gold then.

What's the point in giving them the experience now and strip someone who has been part of USA Basketball since 2002 from a final go around?
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To prepare for the future. But, just my opinion. I understand the desire to reward a player who has been involved in USA basketball for years, but who is to say Bird doesn't want to play in 2020? Does she still get rewarded for years of service at that point, also?

I fully expect that Bird will be on the team, so this is really a moot point, in the long run. I suspect that Diggins will make the team and Sims will be cut.
 
easttexastrash said:
To prepare for the future.
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You're caught in a circle. They can win without experience you say, but we have to prepare for the future, so they should go, but they have no experience now, but they can win now anyway, so why can't they win later with no experience too?

I think you take one young guard to be mentored by the two best in the world at their jobs.
 
DishNSwish said:
You're caught in a circle. They can win without experience you say, but we have to prepare for the future, so they should go, but they have no experience now, but they can win now anyway, so why can't they win later with no experience too?

I think you take one young guard to be mentored by the two best in the world at their jobs.
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You can't go wrong with any of them. Sims will be ready whenever she gets her shot, whether that be now or in 2018.
 
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