UHart D3 Drama... $6.2 M Error

[upstater]

I think the tuition numbers for the athletic department by accounting is ~$18 million.

Here are the UConn cost of attendance numbers (these numbers vary depending on the source):

UConn full cost of in-state attendance = $34,284

UConn cost after aid = $21,588

Difference = 37%.

Most of the scholarship athletes are from out of state, so the athletic department gets "charged" full out of state tuition or about $57k.

Think about the math.

200 out of state athletes at $57k/year = $11.4 million.

200 instate students at the average net cost = $4.2 million.

If UConn charged the Athletic Department net instate tuition for athletic scholarships, the savings on 200 athletes is about $7.2 million/year. Remember, this is just accounting! (Note: the number of athletes on full scholarship is less than 200, but there are >200 athletes on partial scholarship so using 200 to calculate the savings is a good estimate.)

A couple of other areas that UConn accounts for things in a way that could be misleading. Many (most?) of the costs of intramural sports comes through the athletic department. And, the way UConn allocates revenues causes sports to look like they lose more money than they do. For example, Royalties, Licensing, Advertisements, and Sponsorship revenues are not allocated to any sport. In fact, about 25% to 30% of athletic department revenues (not including subsidies and fees) in 2014 did not get allocated to a sport. These revenues included some contributions, some NCAA distributions,... If you were running a business and making decisions on individual product lines, wouldn't you want to allocate revenues to each product line to better understand profitability before you decided to cut products?

The cost of attendance numbers are not money paid to the university. It's cost-of-living. Mandated by federal law.

Also, in terms of aid, they count student loans in that. It's money you presumably have to pay back. I'm assuming any parent would look at it as a payout TO the university. The university after all gets that student loan money.

But what isn't accounted for here is the expenditure per student. You have to figure out what they spend per student because it is far and above the tuition. So you can't count the differential between out-of-staters and state residents when the school subsidizes the expenses of state residents. You have to count the difference between out of state tuition and expenditures per student to see the true savings to the university.

Also realize that Room & Board + Insurance + fees is the same for out of staters as it is for in-staters, so the difference is really only tuition. A $19,000 difference between out-of-staters and in-staters, but the expenditure per student is much closer to the out-of-state charge of $37k than it is to in-state tuition.

Which means when it comes to net revs versus net expenditures, the savings from out-of-state full scholarship athletes to in-state payers is not that great at all.

By the way, if that $18m per year figure is correct, UConn spends $25k per student scholarship athlete.

 

[UofCT]

My kid is a D1 athlete and gets free sneakers, sweatshirts etc. When we visited a number of D3 schools on recruiting visits and were told players have to return their gear at the end of the season (sweatshirts, coats etc) or buy them themselves... Granted, there are some wealthy D3 schools that aren't cheap like that, but at the others, that's the norm.

Returning already worn clothes?

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Despite the bad press, I'm impressed how Gallagher has brought in two good transfers in Coppin State's DeJuan Clayton (14.9p, 5.2a) and La Salle's Jared Kimbrough (5.9p, 3.6r, 59 fg%).

Even with Traci Carter graduating, Hartford will have an older and potentially better squad in 21-22. I've learned a lot about him over the last few years and I'll be rooting for them next year. Seems like a great guy.

 

[freescooter]

I live close to a d3 school and had 2 kids who competed D3. And there is still a certain “purity” to that level. The games are as intense as any you want to see but the players are there because they love the sport and the competition. And once the season ends it ends. No year round “voluntary” practices. If you want to play in the orchestra you can, even if it means you need to leave practice a bit early on Wednesdays. If you want to take a season off to study art in Paris, no problem. If You have a big research paper due and you need to take a day off to finish it you can. If as happened to a friends daughter, you get back from the NCAA track championships too late for graduation, the school might hold a ceremony for you and your friends and family complete with caps and gowns and organ and the school president and a few faculty in full regalia to award you your degree.

 

[Hoophound]

I live close to a d3 school and had 2 kids who competed D3. And there is still a certain “purity” to that level. The games are as intense as any you want to see but the players are there because they love the sport and the competition. And once the season ends it ends. No year round “voluntary” practices. If you want to play in the orchestra you can, even if it means you need to leave practice a bit early on Wednesdays. If you want to take a season off to study art in Paris, no problem. If You have a big research paper due and you need to take a day off to finish it you can. If as happened to a friends daughter, you get back from the NCAA track championships too late for graduation, the school might hold a ceremony for you and your friends and family complete with caps and gowns and organ and the school president and a few faculty in full regalia to award you your degree.

D3 basketball is not that lax in my experience.

 

[BlueDogs]

Uconn in -state tuition is way out of whack compared to many other states. We pay high taxes in this state, yet our flagship state University continues to raise tuition year after year.

There is a “because” and it has a lot to do with government employee unions that own the state and systematically sucked it dry. Notice the massive wealth transfer of federal relief $$ going into pensions to fix “underfunded” plans. It’s a total joke.

 

[upstater]

There is a “because” and it has a lot to do with government employee unions that own the state and systematically sucked it dry. Notice the massive wealth transfer of federal relief $$ going into pensions to fix “underfunded” plans. It’s a total joke.

25 years ago these schools moved to 403bs and away from pensions. So there is no pension problem here.

UConn's high price tag is likely result of low research grants + small endowment, which doesn't help them alleviate the falling state subsidy (tax support).

Don't look at tuition, look at expenditures / FTEs (Full-Time Equivalents [ie. students]). That will tell you what UConn is spending.

But why even discuss this, the UConn Budget isn't a mystery:

REVENUES
State Appropriation: $190.6
Student Tuition & Fees: $739.5
Gifts, Grants & Contracts: $212.4
Sales/Services - Auxiliary Enterprises $29.0
Sales/Services - Educational $21.5
All Other Revenues $18.3
Total $1,367.5

EXPENDITURES
Academic Services $617.5
Research Services $94.6
Student Services $452.9
Operating, Support & Physical Plant Services $202.5
Total $1,367.5

With $190m appropriated by the state for UConn's subsidy, and 32,000 FTEs, it means the state taxpayer supports each UConn student with approximately $6000.

Compare this to what you pay per kindergartner! You pay 3x as much for each 5 year old.

According to this study (https://sheeomain.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/SHEEO_SHEF_FY18_Report.pdf) the national average is $7800 for each student in Higher Ed. which is 11.2% lower in real dollars than it was in 2008. I imagine it has to be even lower now.

 

[Padutch5]

There is a “because” and it has a lot to do with government employee unions that own the state and systematically sucked it dry. Notice the massive wealth transfer of federal relief $$ going into pensions to fix “underfunded” plans. It’s a total joke.

the rating agency “Moodys” has been warning for years that colleges in the Northeast are in trouble. UHart isn’t the only school facing declining enrollment and less selectivity. One major reason is the decline in the student population in the northeast. Yes, families are moving out of the high tax section of the US>. Dramatically rising tuition is another reason. Every college is building new athletic centers, dining halls, social centers, libraries in a bid to out build its competitors. Ask how many classes are being taught by full professors?
Most of the prior contributors are correct, there are many ways to analyze the costs, none of them necessarily wrong,
Not saying UHart should or shouldn’t go to DIII, but before you downplay DIII, go to a game. Weather it is football , basketball or whatever, the games are exciting. For the most part, they are played by normal sized kids [not giants] who play because they love the game, not because they think they will become pros and become millionaires.

 

[UCTitleTown]

Returning already worn clothes?

Yep. Well-that was pre-Covid. Coats, warmups etc. Unless you buy your own.

 

[UConnJim]

The cost of attendance numbers are not money paid to the university. It's cost-of-living. Mandated by federal law.

Also, in terms of aid, they count student loans in that. It's money you presumably have to pay back. I'm assuming any parent would look at it as a payout TO the university. The university after all gets that student loan money.

But what isn't accounted for here is the expenditure per student. You have to figure out what they spend per student because it is far and above the tuition. So you can't count the differential between out-of-staters and state residents when the school subsidizes the expenses of state residents. You have to count the difference between out of state tuition and expenditures per student to see the true savings to the university.

Also realize that Room & Board + Insurance + fees is the same for out of staters as it is for in-staters, so the difference is really only tuition. A $19,000 difference between out-of-staters and in-staters, but the expenditure per student is much closer to the out-of-state charge of $37k than it is to in-state tuition.

Which means when it comes to net revs versus net expenditures, the savings from out-of-state full scholarship athletes to in-state payers is not that great at all.

By the way, if that $18m per year figure is correct, UConn spends $25k per student scholarship athlete.

I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but I have spent many hours studying the UConn athletic department's financial statements as that is what I do for a living and I am interested in the subject.

Net cost (or price) is defined as the cash that the person pays to attend the college. It does not take into account how you fund it, i.e. loans. So yes, the price that the average UConn in state student pays is ~$26.8k/year excluding student loans. That includes tuition, room and board, fees... Here is the definition from the US Department of Education:

What does Net Price mean?​

Net Price is the amount that a student pays to attend an institution in a single academic year AFTER subtracting scholarships and grants the student receives. Scholarships and grants are forms of financial aid that a student does not have to pay back.

Here is a more clear definition:

Net price is the college's annual cost of attendance minus the grants, scholarships, tuition waivers and other gift aid a student receives for one year of college. This does not factor in loans. It includes only the forms of financial aid that a student does not have to repay or earn through work.


On the UConn Husky Athletic Fund website, they have a pie chart with a track athlete identifying the "Cost of a Champion". 58% of the cost is out-of state tuition/room and board/fees... which is listed at full price. I have always wondered about the full price treatment of athletic scholarships at UConn as this distorts the athletic department loss. A few months ago, UConn said they are going to modify the accounting for scholarships, which I think is appropriate and it will reduce the accounting loss to some degree.

Now, for the accounting. Yes, you could say that the cost of educating a student costs more than in-state tuition. At almost every school, tuition does not cover the cost of educating a student. At Harvard, tuition and fees cover less than 20% of expenses. My point was if you trade 200 out-of-state athletes at full cost for 200 in-state students at the net price, the paper accounting savings are big.

As for the $18 million number, that is correct, but your math on scholarship expense per athlete is off because most athletic scholarships at UConn are partial scholarships.

 

[CCSU97]

Per the US Department of Education, the Average Annual Cost (includes tuition, living costs, books and supplies, and fees minus the average grants and scholarships for federal financial aid recipients) is:

CCSU - $16,288
UConn - $21,588
Hartford - $29,592

Here's the simple question - what does UHa offer that you couldn't get better or cheaper somewhere else?

 

[husky429]

Per the US Department of Education, the Average Annual Cost (includes tuition, living costs, books and supplies, and fees minus the average grants and scholarships for federal financial aid recipients) is:

CCSU - $16,288
UConn - $21,588
Hartford - $29,592

Here's the simple question - what does UHa offer that you couldn't get better or cheaper somewhere else?

I always felt like they branded themselves as the artsy counterpart to Wesleyan and it just didn't work out. They didn't have the reputation to become nearly as selective.

Also, Middletown rocks and UHart is near nothing.

 

[Pudge]

maybe they can just be the Hartford branch of Boston College (University) ... because that is the inevitable slide of having buildings, asset, faculty ... and crap reputation in the slide

 

[TRest]

I always felt like they branded themselves as the artsy counterpart to Wesleyan and it just didn't work out. They didn't have the reputation to become nearly as selective.

Also, Middletown rocks and UHart is near nothing.

I always assumed the Hartt School of Music was one of the tops in the country, then I looked it up.

 

[Pudge]

Connecticut is bottom quintile for tax dollars going to the state university.

It's not as bad a PA where the state subsidizes less than 5% of Penn State's budget, but Connecticut is definitely in the bottom rung.

always appreciate your "real" academic focus in the narrative of a internet conspiracist throng

 

[BigTenFan]

I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but I have spent many hours studying the UConn athletic department's financial statements as that is what I do for a living and I am interested in the subject.

Net cost (or price) is defined as the cash that the person pays to attend the college. It does not take into account how you fund it, i.e. loans. So yes, the price that the average UConn in state student pays is ~$26.8k/year excluding student loans. That includes tuition, room and board, fees... Here is the definition from the US Department of Education:

What does Net Price mean?​

Net Price is the amount that a student pays to attend an institution in a single academic year AFTER subtracting scholarships and grants the student receives. Scholarships and grants are forms of financial aid that a student does not have to pay back.

Here is a more clear definition:

Net price is the college's annual cost of attendance minus the grants, scholarships, tuition waivers and other gift aid a student receives for one year of college. This does not factor in loans. It includes only the forms of financial aid that a student does not have to repay or earn through work.


On the UConn Husky Athletic Fund website, they have a pie chart with a track athlete identifying the "Cost of a Champion". 58% of the cost is out-of state tuition/room and board/fees... which is listed at full price. I have always wondered about the full price treatment of athletic scholarships at UConn as this distorts the athletic department loss. A few months ago, UConn said they are going to modify the accounting for scholarships, which I think is appropriate and it will reduce the accounting loss to some degree.

Now, for the accounting. Yes, you could say that the cost of educating a student costs more than in-state tuition. At almost every school, tuition does not cover the cost of educating a student. At Harvard, tuition and fees cover less than 20% of expenses. My point was if you trade 200 out-of-state athletes at full cost for 200 in-state students at the net price, the paper accounting savings are big.

As for the $18 million number, that is correct, but your math on scholarship expense per athlete is off because most athletic scholarships at UConn are partial scholarships.

How does UConn net student price compare to schools like UNC, MSU, UMass etc....?

 

[Waquoit]

I always assumed the Hartt School of Music was one of the tops in the country, then I looked it up.

Dionne Warwick isn't walking through that door!

 

[HooperScooper]

I live close to a d3 school and had 2 kids who competed D3. And there is still a certain “purity” to that level. The games are as intense as any you want to see but the players are there because they love the sport and the competition. And once the season ends it ends. No year round “voluntary” practices. If you want to play in the orchestra you can, even if it means you need to leave practice a bit early on Wednesdays. If you want to take a season off to study art in Paris, no problem. If You have a big research paper due and you need to take a day off to finish it you can. If as happened to a friends daughter, you get back from the NCAA track championships too late for graduation, the school might hold a ceremony for you and your friends and family complete with caps and gowns and organ and the school president and a few faculty in full regalia to award you your degree.

I don't know what school your kids went to, or when they were there, but I haven't seen what you're saying for a long time. The school I went to in the mid-1980s was a basketball powerhouse (13 straight NCAA Tournaments, 2 national championship games in the 4 years I was there) and a good academic school and generally what you're saying is what happened. The season ended and that was it.

Today, from everything I've seen, it's much different. I know a lot of kids who play D3 sports. There certainly are offseason "voluntary" practices, as well as weight training sessions, and you are expected to attend. If you're going to go abroad you don't do it during the semester your sport plays. So winter sport athletes usually don't go abroad since their season overlaps both semesters. You're expected to play your sport in a summer league. There is no time off and the dedication to their sport is much higher than when I went to school.

My 2 kids go/went to NESCAC schools and academics are certainly a priority at those places so there definitely is more latitude with sports when taking into consideration academics. Academics come first. But they're still pretty serious and the commitment is very real. As an example, the son of a friend of mine is a freshman baseball player at a NESCAC school and he wants to work during the summer. He was specifically told by the coach that he can work if he wants to, but he also has to play in a summer league and he has to have a job that will let him work around his summer league commitment.

Maybe other D3 schools treat sports closer to what you're saying, but I haven't seen or heard of that at any of the schools where I know D3 athletes. No matter the sport.

 

[BlueDogs]

25 years ago these schools moved to 403bs and away from pensions. So there is no pension problem here.

UConn's high price tag is likely result of low research grants + small endowment, which doesn't help them alleviate the falling state subsidy (tax support).

Don't look at tuition, look at expenditures / FTEs (Full-Time Equivalents [ie. students]). That will tell you what UConn is spending.

But why even discuss this, the UConn Budget isn't a mystery:

REVENUES
State Appropriation: $190.6
Student Tuition & Fees: $739.5
Gifts, Grants & Contracts: $212.4
Sales/Services - Auxiliary Enterprises $29.0
Sales/Services - Educational $21.5
All Other Revenues $18.3
Total $1,367.5

EXPENDITURES
Academic Services $617.5
Research Services $94.6
Student Services $452.9
Operating, Support & Physical Plant Services $202.5
Total $1,367.5

With $190m appropriated by the state for UConn's subsidy, and 32,000 FTEs, it means the state taxpayer supports each UConn student with approximately $6000.

Compare this to what you pay per kindergartner! You pay 3x as much for each 5 year old.

According to this study (https://sheeomain.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/SHEEO_SHEF_FY18_Report.pdf) the national average is $7800 for each student in Higher Ed. which is 11.2% lower in real dollars than it was in 2008. I imagine it has to be even lower now.

Not trying to be difficult but while new employees are being pushed into defined contribution plans, the overhang is massive. $64 Billion in unfunded liability is insane. UConn pushes for state to cover unfunded pension costs: “It makes us uncompetitive” | Yankee Institute for Public Policy

 

[husky429]

Not trying to be difficult but while new employees are being pushed into defined contribution plans, the overhang is massive. $64 Billion in unfunded liability is insane. UConn pushes for state to cover unfunded pension costs: “It makes us uncompetitive” | Yankee Institute for Public Policy

Ahh yes, the Yankee Institute. A totally unbiased source.

 

[BlueDogs]

Ahh yes, the Yankee Institute. A totally unbiased source.

I don’t think they make up numbers on stated I funded liabilities.

 

[UConniki]

I always assumed the Hartt School of Music was one of the tops in the country, then I looked it up.

While it wasn't my first choice ( Berklee in Boston was) i've done pretty good.

 

[freescooter]

I don't know what school your kids went to, or when they were there, but I haven't seen what you're saying for a long time. The school I went to in the mid-1980s was a basketball powerhouse (13 straight NCAA Tournaments, 2 national championship games in the 4 years I was there) and a good academic school and generally what you're saying is what happened. The season ended and that was it.

Today, from everything I've seen, it's much different. I know a lot of kids who play D3 sports. There certainly are offseason "voluntary" practices, as well as weight training sessions, and you are expected to attend. If you're going to go abroad you don't do it during the semester your sport plays. So winter sport athletes usually don't go abroad since their season overlaps both semesters. You're expected to play your sport in a summer league. There is no time off and the dedication to their sport is much higher than when I went to school.

My 2 kids go/went to NESCAC schools and academics are certainly a priority at those places so there definitely is more latitude with sports when taking into consideration academics. Academics come first. But they're still pretty serious and the commitment is very real. As an example, the son of a friend of mine is a freshman baseball player at a NESCAC school and he wants to work during the summer. He was specifically told by the coach that he can work if he wants to, but he also has to play in a summer league and he has to have a job that will let him work around his summer league commitment.

Maybe other D3 schools treat sports closer to what you're saying, but I haven't seen or heard of that at any of the schools where I know D3 athletes. No matter the sport.

Both went to NECAC schools. Both were athletes, graduated in 2012 and 15. One was also a member of the wind ensemble and occasionally missed practice for that on concert night, out of town performances and such. Both took seasons off to spend semesters abroad, as did their friends and team mates. Sure they worked on their games in the off season. Coaches sent out summer workouts, too. Baseball players and hockey players play in summer leagues. Presumably basketball players do to. But you didn’t get hauled back to campus for the summer to take quasi-classes but really to train. And there is no spring football. There were a few guys who played football in the fall and baseball in the Spring. Not a whole team of course, but one was a DH in at least 1 game I saw. The other was on the roster. No idea if he ever played since I didn’t follow that closely. It just is a totally different environment. Not less competitive.

 

[HooperScooper]

Both went to NECAC schools. Both were athletes, graduated in 2012 and 15. One was also a member of the wind ensemble and occasionally missed practice for that on concert night, out of town performances and such. Both took seasons off to spend semesters abroad, as did their friends and team mates. Sure they worked on their games in the off season. Coaches sent out summer workouts, too. Baseball players and hockey players play in summer leagues. Presumably basketball players do to. But you didn’t get hauled back to campus for the summer to take quasi-classes but really to train. And there is no spring football. There were a few guys who played football in the fall and baseball in the Spring. Not a whole team of course, but one was a DH in at least 1 game I saw. The other was on the roster. No idea if he ever played since I didn’t follow that closely. It just is a totally different environment. Not less competitive.

Yes, of course it's much different than D1. No argument there. Much less pressure to win because there's no money involved. But my point was it's much more demanding than 30-40 years ago when I was in college. Playing D3 sports is definitely more of a commitment than it used to be. Ask any parent who played D3 sports and currently have kids playing D3 sports.

 

[upstater]

I don’t think they make up numbers on stated I funded liabilities.

That 64b number is the state's total liability, not UConn's