UConn vs Michigan (Championship) | Page 9 | The Boneyard

UConn vs Michigan (Championship)

RuffRuff said:
No, I haven't. I'm not talking about perception, that is someone else basing it on draft status.

I'm basing it on what a player accomplished in their singular season we are comparing. Do you even want me to bother putting the numbers up? Because they won't help the cause. How about the accolades, the EvanMiya data - basically anything other than the subjective view of Boneyarders.

He was a 19 year old kid still figuring things out. Yaxel is a large, fully formed 23 year old. He IS the more impactful player by ever single data point you can think of. You think Steph is going to guard a guy that much bigger than him - guy would just back him in, go over him.

And yes, if Castle left into this draft class based on his 23-24 body of work, he's likely going outside the top ten. There were plenty of concerns that he couldn't shoot and the NBA puts a lot of emphasis on scoring. He went behind Reed Sheppard for God's sake. There are multiple guards better than Reed Sheppard in this class (Acuff, Brown, Peterson, Wagler, Flemming, Burries). He would have gone behind all of them, along with Caleb Foster, Boozer, AJD, likely Ament. We're all proud of the kid, know he's been amazing in the NBA so far. That 24 draft was bad.

We got another numb nut saying Clingan wouldn't have dropped out of the top ten, which he DEFINITELY would have. We cannot factor in how they've done in the NBA so far. I'm not even sure Sarr would have gone in the top ten in this draft, it's that good. Not sure anyone is paying attention.
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You're underrating Castle by a lot.

He didn't take until he was 23 years old to develop.

He won ROY in the NBA as a 20 yr old.

He was that good.

Since you've taken to insulting people, it's beyond dumb not to factor how they've done in the NBA. You must factor that because it tells us how good these players really are, and Castle -- as good as he was -- was not relied upon at UConn BECAUSE he was part of an extraordinary unit.

In fact, that's the entire point of this discussion. He didn't develop into a star between May of his graduation and October of his rookie NBA season. He was already that good. He didn't need to put up Yaxel's numbers. He was that good already.

This is one of the craziest discussions I've ever seen on the Boneyard. The kid didn't have fantastic numbers during the season. Great. He didn't need to. That's the whole point of this discussion. He was however the best player in the NCAA tournament.

That UConn team would throttle this Michigan team.

You're a slave to KenPom and ratings which are severely flawed and don't pass the eye test
 
REB1094 said:
To be honest with you all I’m pretty scared. Mara doesn’t have Reed’s strength but 7’3 is 7’3. And a hobbled Yaxel is still one of the best players in America. Morez Johnson is a really good player with really good size as well

Have to play our A+ game. Can’t afford a bad night from three, can’t afford anyone picking up cheap fouls, and can’t afford a 5 minute cold spell with no points

Play the A+ game and we’re bringing home #7. Leave it all out there, let’s go!!!
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I can see a DeJuan Blair vs. Thabeet thing going down in our favor. At the face of it, I’m not too concerned about Mara; especially if we can slow the pace of the game and keep play in the half court. It’s the size everywhere else that’s concerning. But they’re beatable.
 
upstater said:
You're underrating Castle by a lot.

He didn't take until he was 23 years old to develop.

He won ROY in the NBA as a 20 yr old.

He was that good.

Since you've taken to insulting people, it's beyond dumb not to factor how they've done in the NBA. You must factor that because it tells us how good these players really are, and Castle -- as good as he was -- was not relied upon at UConn BECAUSE he was part of an extraordinary unit.

In fact, that's the entire point of this discussion. He didn't develop into a star between May of his graduation and October of his rookie NBA season. He was already that good. He didn't need to put up Yaxel's numbers. He was that good already.

This is one of the craziest discussions I've ever seen on the Boneyard. The kid didn't have fantastic numbers during the season. Great. He didn't need to. That's the whole point of this discussion. He was however the best player in the NCAA tournament.

That UConn team would throttle this Michigan team.

You're a slave to KenPom and ratings which are severely flawed and don't pass the eye test
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He didn't take that long, but that's not the point. However long it took Yaxel to develop, it is what it is. We aren't discussing potential here - we are discussing what a player was to their team in the year we are comparing. 26 Yaxel is a better overall player than 24 Castle, and it's not even an argument.

How can we factor how they've done in the NBA? Why? Yaxel hasn't even been in the NBA. We are comparing past vs present - not sure if that is registering.

I'm a slave to KenPom? Lundenberg was first team AA and B10POY. Steph was BE FOY.

I think 24 Uconn wins too, but to say they'd throttle simply tells me you're talking with blinders and not logic.
 
Iluvsuebird said:
Can an out of conference team defend what we do for 40 minutes while retaining legs sufficient to make jumpers late in the second half? I think not.
Arizona had a dumb plan last night. They thought they could outscore Michigan. They could not. And neither can we. But Danny Hurley would never try that. We are running our sets for 40 minutes. We are making 23 have to run after Alex with an injured leg. And we are not going to allow the crazy number of open 3’s that zona allowed last night. I think we win this game, with a full roster. I just saw that Solo is questionable, we need everybody!!!
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I'm pretty sure outscoring the other team is the only way to win...
 
RuffRuff said:
He didn't take that long, but that's not the point. However long it took Yaxel to develop, it is what it is. We aren't discussing potential here - we are discussing what a player was to their team in the year we are comparing. 26 Yaxel is a better overall player than 24 Castle, and it's not even an argument.

How can we factor how they've done in the NBA? Why? Yaxel hasn't even been in the NBA. We are comparing past vs present - not sure if that is registering.

I'm a slave to KenPom? Lundenberg was first team AA and B10POY. Steph was BE FOY.

I think 24 Uconn wins too, but to say they'd throttle simply tells me you're talking with blinders and not logic.
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You're being deliberately obtuse.

Castle was not needed to be everything on a loaded team. He didn't become an NBA star in 5 months. He was already that good.

But the team was loaded and they shared the load. During the NCAAT Castle showed what kind of player he already was.

It's axiomatic that someone who plays several years in the NCAA and only then reaches this level is not the player of someone like Castle who had that impact 3 years earlier in his life.

UConn has beaten 8 B1G teams in a row in the NCAA tourney. I think you're way too easily impressed by that conference.
 
The thing about trying to evaluate Castle on UConn in 2024 is that he was essentially a Swiss Army knife that was only being used as nail clippers. He got hurt very early, came back on a minutes restriction, and tried to assimilate on a veteran team that was playing well without him. So he never really assumed a major role in our offense (other than perhaps against Alabama which opted not to guard him at all).

If we want to evaluate a hypothetical matchup, then hypothetically, I want a Castle who was never injured and playing at full capacity.
 
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If the conversation is:

- Who was the better player in the given year, Castle in 24 or Yaxel in 26, you're a homer if it isn't Yaxel.

- Would Castle potentially slow him down? I mean, he defended pretty much everyone and would probably give Yaxel a tougher time than most, but Yaxel has 3 inches and weight on him. With Clingan behind, it could probably have helped.

- Who would be drafted higher between Yaxel and Castle? Castle probably given his age and performance.

- Castle in this draft class is not going ahead of a number of players, but given his potential and his performance in big games, he's probably going 10-15 (where they have players like Yaxel and Mullins mocked). Clingan is in that range or up higher because of his metrics. Mocks have Mara around 14-17 and Clingan is a better prospect both offensively and defensively while being younger and about the same height.
 
Mister P said:
My bad.
I thought he Nardi and Kmani had AZ and Luke had Michigan.
Luke’s still going out a champion :)
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kobebeanbryant said:
curious, has Nardi done any of the other scouts in the tournament?
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Depends on what "doing the scout' means. Simply charting what the opponent does, and what works against it, or also preparing the game plan?

As to the game plan, Luke stayed to win another NC and I don't see Dan Hurley risking a $500,000 bonus on the newest, least experienced staff member.
 
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tzznandrew said:
If the conversation is:

- Who was the better player in the given year, Castle in 24 or Yaxel in 26, you're a homer if it isn't Yaxel.

- Would Castle potentially slow him down? I mean, he defended pretty much everyone and would probably give Yaxel a tougher time than most, but Yaxel has 3 inches and weight on him. With Clingan behind, it could probably have helped.

- Who would be drafted higher between Yaxel and Castle? Castle probably given his age and performance.

- Castle in this draft class is not going ahead of a number of players, but given his potential and his performance in big games, he's probably going 10-15 (where they have players like Yaxel and Mullins mocked). Clingan is in that range or up higher because of his metrics. Mocks have Mara around 14-17 and Clingan is a better prospect both offensively and defensively while being younger and about the same height.
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You're twisting the whole conversation just like RuffRuff, and on the last part you're just wrong.

#1. Castle locks down bigger and better players than Yaxel. IN THE NBA. This is what he's known for.

#2. The question is which team is more loaded, and the fact that Castle was not expected to carry the load for UConn, despite being a better player than Yaxel, speaks to the talent of the '24 UConn team. Up and down the roster, they were more talented than this year's Michigan.

#3. You're taking Castle after Flemings, Acuff, Wagler, Burries and Brown???? Really? That makes him 10. So you're thinking he could fall to 15.
 
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upstater said:
You're twisting the whole conversation just like RuffRuff, and on the last part you're just wrong.

#1. Castle locks down bigger and better players than Yaxel. IN THE NBA. This is what he's known for.

#2. The question is which team is more loaded, and the fact that Castle was not expected to carry the load for UConn, despite being a better player than Yaxel, speaks to the talent of the '24 UConn team. Up and down the roster, they were more talented than this year's Michigan.

#3. You're taking Castle after Flemings, Acuff, Wagler, Burries and Brown???? Really? That makes him 10. So you're thinking he could fall to 15.
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I'm not trying to twist anything. I'm simply trying to figure out what the debate was, because it seemed like there were a lot.

#1. He does. He was a great defender. He's doing that now. He was good at it but has gotten better. I said 24 Castle is going to "would probably give Yaxel a tougher time than most." Isn't that a reasonable take about guarding a 4 year older first team AA when you're a freshmen?

#2. This isn't even a thing I was talking about. 24 UConn is better than 26 Michigan, though I think that is closer than you're considering.

#3. The buzz going into the draft was that the 2024 draft essentially started at #5. He would absolutely go behind Dybantsa, Peterson, Boozer, Wilson, and Acuff. So we're starting at #6. After that, it's going to be dependent on what a team wants. And all those other freshmen (Flemings, Wagler, Burries, and Brown) shot at a much higher level except for Brown. Throw in Philon, whose also going to be in that range.

The defense from Castle was exceptional, and the fact that he wasn't asked to do too much means the stats for average, etc. isn't going to matter. But he's going to be judged against that group, and his shooting is going to matter (he shot under 27% from 3). I'm just guessing he'd probably get passed up on teams that are losing teams who want immediate scoring. He won ROY from a terrible class on bad efficiency. He's going to be an All-Defensive player, and fight to make third teams, and might be better than all the players in that above list being judged, but, yeah, if I could revise my initial, I'd probably say 9-14 depending on the draft order and need.

Both Castle and Clingan are Tier 2 prospects in a normal draft. That's not an insult, it's just true. Tier 2 prospects can sometimes develop into absolute studs, and both of them are well on their way.
 
RuffRuff said:
No, I haven't. I'm not talking about perception, that is someone else basing it on draft status.

I'm basing it on what a player accomplished in their singular season we are comparing. Do you even want me to bother putting the numbers up? Because they won't help the cause. How about the accolades, the EvanMiya data - basically anything other than the subjective view of Boneyarders.

He was a 19 year old kid still figuring things out. Yaxel is a large, fully formed 23 year old. He IS the more impactful player by ever single data point you can think of. You think Steph is going to guard a guy that much bigger than him - guy would just back him in, go over him.

And yes, if Castle left into this draft class based on his 23-24 body of work, he's likely going outside the top ten. There were plenty of concerns that he couldn't shoot and the NBA puts a lot of emphasis on scoring. He went behind Reed Sheppard for God's sake. There are multiple guards better than Reed Sheppard in this class (Acuff, Brown, Peterson, Wagler, Flemming, Burries). He would have gone behind all of them, along with Caleb Foster, Boozer, AJD, likely Ament. We're all proud of the kid, know he's been amazing in the NBA so far. That 24 draft was bad.

We got another numb nut saying Clingan wouldn't have dropped out of the top ten, which he DEFINITELY would have. We cannot factor in how they've done in the NBA so far. I'm not even sure Sarr would have gone in the top ten in this draft, it's that good. Not sure anyone is paying attention.
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All I said is you are a fool if you do not think Castle could or would be able to contain Yaxel.

Just added that despite not being featured as the primary weapon ( which will never happen with a Hurley team) that he was still drafted 4th.

Keep making stuff up bro!
 
tzznandrew said:
I'm not trying to twist anything. I'm simply trying to figure out what the debate was, because it seemed like there were a lot.

#1. He does. He was a great defender. He's doing that now. He was good at it but has gotten better. I said 24 Castle is going to "would probably give Yaxel a tougher time than most." Isn't that a reasonable take about guarding a 4 year older first team AA when you're a freshmen?

#2. This isn't even a thing I was talking about. 24 UConn is better than 26 Michigan, though I think that is closer than you're considering.

#3. The buzz going into the draft was that the 2024 draft essentially started at #5. He would absolutely go behind Dybantsa, Peterson, Boozer, Wilson, and Acuff. So we're starting at #6. After that, it's going to be dependent on what a team wants. And all those other freshmen (Flemings, Wagler, Burries, and Brown) shot at a much higher level except for Brown. Throw in Philon, whose also going to be in that range.

The defense from Castle was exceptional, and the fact that he wasn't asked to do too much means the stats for average, etc. isn't going to matter. But he's going to be judged against that group, and his shooting is going to matter (he shot under 27% from 3). I'm just guessing he'd probably get passed up on teams that are losing teams who want immediate scoring. He won ROY from a terrible class on bad efficiency. He's going to be an All-Defensive player, and fight to make third teams, and might be better than all the players in that above list being judged, but, yeah, if I could revise my initial, I'd probably say 9-14 depending on the draft order and need.

Both Castle and Clingan are Tier 2 prospects in a normal draft. That's not an insult, it's just true. Tier 2 prospects can sometimes develop into absolute studs, and both of them are well on their way.
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The debate was about which team was more loaded.

You guys are bringing up how Castle is behind all those players in stats but Castle was on a loaded team. And you named 5 guys he would be picked behind, not 10-15. Acuff, by the way, is ridiculously bad at defense. So when you say those other players shot at a much higher level, you're neglecting to account for the actual team. And the all around play.

Both you and RuffRuff severely underrate Castle.

Just curious: do you watch the NBA much?
 
Just did a quick read of some other team's message boards (St. Johns, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, and of course The Finger Lake Community College of Syracuse)......

Everyone is so jealous of us. They are so tired of us. They are so begrudingly impressed by us. They wish they were us.

Enjoy every moment of it. We are blessed.
 
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caw said:
OK seriously this time. UConn can win this one.

Michigan does play three bigs to start the game but they actually don’t play all three together a ton.

Against Duke Yaxel played 38 minutes but Johnson only played 28 and Mara 22. So about 10 minutes of overlap give or take. Purdue game was similar.
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My thing is this if Yaxel is hobbled and not himself and Mara gets in foul trouble Michigan is going to look pretty ordinary. I like Tarris v Johnson in the post all day. Arizona was putrid on defense leaving guys wide open all over the place and Bradley getting into foul trouble killed them. That kid was the heart and soul of that team. We have a chance. My only concern is can Reed score on Mara in the post. If he cant we could be in big trouble especially if we arent hitting from the outside. If he can score on the inside and even gets Mara in foul trouble forcing May to sit him for extended time that changes the game dramatically. Mara is the key to this game.
 
upstater said:
The debate was about which team was more loaded.

You guys are bringing up how Castle is behind all those players in stats but Castle was on a loaded team. And you named 5 guys he would be picked behind, not 10-15. Acuff, by the way, is ridiculously bad at defense. So when you say those other players shot at a much higher level, you're neglecting to account for the actual team. And the all around play.

Both you and RuffRuff severely underrate Castle.

Just curious: do you watch the NBA much?
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The debate has had like fifteen different iterations. So, which team was more loaded: UConn's 2024 was the better team and I think it will have more higher level pros in it.

re: shooting. Castle was often left wide open and shot that poorly. The others were, at times, primary scorers or ballhandlers. Castle had none of that pressure with Newton and Spencer. In fact, in the draft conversations, many doubted he was a point guard because of it.

I named 5 no-brainer he'll be picked behind. That includes Acuff: the NBA loves its creators. The next set of names I listed scored more efficiently in college with more pressure on them. I think he'd be drafted among them, but at the tail end of the 5 names there, behind players like Wagler and Burries, and probably one of Brown or Flemings. It all depends, at that point, what the team wanted.

Look, I'm not underrating him. He was awesome. I think you're overrating what he showed on offense (both in shooting and in creating), and underrating what some of the other freshmen did. This is not me saying all those dudes will be better. They won't. Maybe none of them in that range. It's just me guessing that bad teams are going to pick efficient players because they need scoring before picking someone like Castle, who really landed in the perfect spot.

EDIT: Do I watch the NBA. Less these days with a toddler, but still pay attention and watch when I can. I don't think that changes my point. Many of the guys we named have stats in the Edgecomb range or better. Most teams are going to pick that when there's little else to build around. Hence why I said the draft position would depend heavily on who is drafting in that 9-14 range.
 
REB1094 said:
To be honest with you all I’m pretty scared. Mara doesn’t have Reed’s strength but 7’3 is 7’3. And a hobbled Yaxel is still one of the best players in America. Morez Johnson is a really good player with really good size as well

Have to play our A+ game. Can’t afford a bad night from three, can’t afford anyone picking up cheap fouls, and can’t afford a 5 minute cold spell with no points

Play the A+ game and we’re bringing home #7. Leave it all out there, let’s go!!!
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I figured I'd chime in here. We've never been able to play our A game, never mind an A+ game any time this season. The second SJU game was probably the closest.

With that said, to beat UM, it won't necessarily take our A game. We need to play very good on the defense end of the floor, not giving up many easy shots or turning over the ball much ourselves. Hoping that, along with making them defend for 30+ minutes, results with them missing plenty of contested shots and some of their open looks. Limit the turnovers, thus limitting their transition baskets. Rebound on both ends at a high level, limiting their second chances and getting some of our own.

Hit double digit 3s and not on a high volume/low percentage of takes. We'll miss some of course. Drive it into the paint and try to dish to Reed or cutters. I.e. don't drive it into the trees and go right up with it, unless they are out of position where we can draw fouls if the refs are calling them. Feed Reed. Limit the missed bunnies and wide open 3s that can result in transition baskets on the other end.

We didn't need our A game to beat Dook. We will need a somewhat better performance, hoping our effort on both ends of the floor keeps them off balance enough to not shoot it as well as they normally do, just like they did against the Illini.

Also make life miserable for Cadeau and limit the allyoops. Stay close all night. This is a team you don't want to fall far behind and give them any more confidence than they already have. Play this game like the 99 game over Dook.

All this is possible and won't take an A game, though I would love to see that happen, where they execute close to flawless on both ends and our shooters are all connecting. We just haven't seen that happen.

UM is a very good team playing their best hoops now. But so was Dook in 99 and we all know what that outcome was.
 
I'm not sure if the above bickering with Ruff helps or hurts our mojo, but I have a strong feeling that we will need quite a bit of mojo to complete this run.

In a little more than 24 hours this season will be over (ideally with us cutting down the nets once again). At that point we lose Luke and his father. We may as well enjoy it and we should continue to do what we can. I believe that everyone willing should help by bringing out their mojo. This is something I used in our 2011 run (although then I only had a picture).

 
tzznandrew said:
The debate has had like fifteen different iterations. So, which team was more loaded: UConn's 2024 was the better team and I think it will have more higher level pros in it.

re: shooting. Castle was often left wide open and shot that poorly. The others were, at times, primary scorers or ballhandlers. Castle had none of that pressure with Newton and Spencer. In fact, in the draft conversations, many doubted he was a point guard because of it.

I named 5 no-brainer he'll be picked behind. That includes Acuff: the NBA loves its creators. The next set of names I listed scored more efficiently in college with more pressure on them. I think he'd be drafted among them, but at the tail end of the 5 names there, behind players like Wagler and Burries, and probably one of Brown or Flemings. It all depends, at that point, what the team wanted.

Look, I'm not underrating him. He was awesome. I think you're overrating what he showed on offense (both in shooting and in creating), and underrating what some of the other freshmen did. This is not me saying all those dudes will be better. They won't. Maybe none of them in that range. It's just me guessing that bad teams are going to pick efficient players because they need scoring before picking someone like Castle, who really landed in the perfect spot.

EDIT: Do I watch the NBA. Less these days with a toddler, but still pay attention and watch when I can. I don't think that changes my point. Many of the guys we named have stats in the Edgecomb range or better. Most teams are going to pick that when there's little else to build around. Hence why I said the draft position would depend heavily on who is drafting in that 9-14 range.
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It was always a debate about which team was more loaded.

You're only looking at Castle as a 3 pt shooter. His 3 pt shooting isn't that great in the NBA either. Now look at his all around offensive game. He is incredibly proficient. He's nearly unstoppable.

Castle in the NCAAT was fantastic.

I'd take him ahead of Flemings, Wagler, Brown, and Acuff. These are the type of players who come into the NBA after flashing in college but they don't translate immediately and certainly can't expect them to make All NBA teams.

The NBA is filled with Andrew Wiggins types. Wiggins was better than all of the players named above. And he's a good NBA guy, but he'll never make 3rd team All NBA. He is fringe for the All-Star game. One of the top 40-50 NBA players. But never a top 15 guy.

That's where Castle is going to be.

Only 1 or 2 of those guys come along every draft. Maybe this year has 3 or 4 of those guys. Who knows.
 
upstater said:
#3. You're taking Castle after Flemings, Acuff, Wagler, Burries and Brown???? Really? That makes him 10. So you're thinking he could fall to 15.
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The NBA is planning to have 5 Rookies of the Year next year, that's how good this class is.
 
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pj said:
The NBA is planning to have 5 Rookies of the Year next year, that's how good this class is.
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Plans schmans.

We never know what we have. You get the #1 pick like Wiggins some years who looks like the best prospect in ages and he never lives up to the hype. Then you get the NBAs current MVP who comes out in what was considered at the time a weak draft and he goes #11. No one wanted Bagley, Ayton or Mo Bamba at #1, but somehow if you were lucky to land SGA or Doncic, you were golden. They all said it was a weak draft, but the unhyped players ended up better than the guys with incredible hype from previous drafts.
 
Inyatkin said:
Getting some serious 99 feelings. A semifinal win against a Big 10 team that was extremely businesslike. A big underdog for Monday night. History repeating
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I'll give you 99, raise you 04, and take 26 as the payoff!
 
upstater said:
You're only looking at Castle as a 3 pt shooter. His 3 pt shooting isn't that great in the NBA either. Now look at his all around offensive game. He is incredibly proficient. He's nearly unstoppable.
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He averages 16 and 7 on 47% shooting (and 73% from the line). He's very good. He's only 21. He's not in the top 100 most efficient players and he's not yet "nearly unstoppable."

Anyway, I think he'll be better than that tier (other than Acuff, who I think has a chance to be better than you're giving him credit for). But I still think for reasons I've given he's probably be drafted behind a a number of those players.

I think we're mostly talking past each other, so no need to keep going. We both think Castle is really good. We both think 24 UConn is better than 26 Michigan.
 
I'd like to hear a bit more analysis than "we have championship dna" by the experts.... and frankly opposing coaches
 
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