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Duke is getting nothing out of that game. In fact it's probably destroying any confidence they have, so it's likely a net negative.
UConn Hosts Duke Wbb on 12/30
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Duke is getting nothing out of that game. In fact it's probably destroying any confidence they have, so it's likely a net negative.
bballnut90
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From 1999-2006, Duke made 4 Final Fours and 2 championship game appearances. Along the way they had multiple victories over Tennessee and Connecticut, and nearly won the 2006 title. In her last year, Duke was preseason #6 and went undefeated in the regular season when the ACC was brutal with Maryland/North Carolina as Final Four quality teams. They were upset by Rutgers in the Sweet 16 (a team they'd previously beaten by 40), but the last decade that GG was at Duke, Duke was a championship contender. Not sure how that's 'underperformance."
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Dynasty!
CamrnCrz1974
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A little statistical comparison for you, dbmill...Goestenkors' last seven years at Duke vs. McCallie's seven years at Duke.
Overall record:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 199-41 (82.92 percent)
NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 16-7 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, five years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)
Against UConn:
Goestenkors: 2-2 (2-2 for her career; 2-1 against UConn over her last seven years)
McCallie: 0-7 (and only one loss was less than 22 points; average margin of loss is 28.43 points)
Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-13 (51.85 percent)
McCallie: 7-20 (25.92 percent)
Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-13 (65.79 percent)
McCallie: 18-24 (42.85 percent)
Goestenkors also went 3-0 against the vaunted Candace Parker/Alexis Jones/Nicky Anosike/Alex Fuller recruiting class; McCallie went 0-1.
As an aside, using the last seven years of the Goestenkors era precludes mention of the 1999 NCAA Runner-Up finish, which included a victory over three-time defending national champion Tennessee.
easttexastrash
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Agreed. Look at what Mulkey was working with last season, other than Sims. Nobody was very highly rated (top 10) yet Mulkey got the most out of her team. A trip to ND was not a very nice gift by the tourney committee.
easttexastrash
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That Alexis Jones really gets around.
CamrnCrz1974
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HA! You are right essttexastrash; that should be Alexis Horbuckle, not Alexis Jones!
easttexastrash
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I knew what you meant. (-;
Goestenkors was a great recruiter, there is no question about that. She had all sorts of talent on her teams. In some of those years Duke was as talented as any team in the country. In my mind she should have won at least one national championship with what they had.
Goestenkors was a great recruiter at Duke. Her Duke teams were incredibly talented, as talented as any in the country over several years. In my mind they Duke had a very good chance to win multiple national championships, yet they did not win any, including the biggest flub in 1999. When a team as talented as they were over a number of years fails to win the big one, that raises big questions in my mind about the coach.
CamrnCrz1974
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Is this a joke?
First, McCallie's recruiting classes have been better than those Goestenkors pulled in. She has pulled more top ten players to Duke than Goestenkors ever did.
Second, in 1999, Purdue and Tennessee were the two best teams in the country. Duke was an after though with no McDonald's All-Americans and a bunch of role players and two Purdue transfers. Explain to me how that was a "flub" when Duke beat three-time defending national champion Tennessee (with Holdsclaw, Randall, and Catchings), with Georgia Schweitzer being the best player in the regional, then beating Georgia (with the Miller twins and Deanna Nolan) in the Final Four.
Third, you say that Goestenkors has underperformed as compared to McCallie, whose teams have had more talent with worse results.
I posted the records, the statistisc, and the accolades. The facts and evidence do not support your opinions.
Truth be told, I hadn't given much thought over which Duke coach was actually better or worse than the other. McCallie very well could be worse than Goestenkors as you argue, and I'm quite willing to concede that point.
Beating Tennessee in 1999 was a great win for Duke, no doubt about it. The flub was in losing to Purdue in the championship game that year, a game they should have won in my mind. That had to be one of the worst championship games I've seen, especially that first half. Interesting enough, in the NCAA tournament years from 1996 to 2007, Duke only lost to two teams that were numerically a better seed than they were. Purdue was a 1 and Duke a 3 in 1999. In 2005, Duke was 2 when they lost to 1 seed LSU. But over those years Duke was no worse than a 4 seed every year (they were six times a 1 seed, three times a 2 seed), and in those years they were bounced from the tournament by a 12, 9, 7, and a 5 seed, as well as by 2 and a 4 seed when they were a 1.
I just think that Goestenkors was way overrated over her Duke years as well. Coach G left a bad "coaching" taste in my mouth many years ago, and to me it is petty much an automatic reaction for me to make snide remarks about her teams underperforming in the NCAA tourney over the years, despite continually being a top seed. I hadn't thought that McCallie was following in that tradition of Goestenkors underperformance, but she has. That McCallie superseded it is something of an "accomplishment". I guess it is something of a Duke tradition.
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GG's problem was that she was a bad front-runner. Seemed like she, and as a result her team, tightened up when they were the favorite. They choked. But when they were the underdog, they had some pretty strong results (most notably the 99 win over Tenn).
McCallie's teams so far haven't even been in position to choke.
McCallie's teams so far haven't even been in position to choke.
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Gail Goestenkors at Duke is Pat Summitt compared to Joanne P's tenure.
Atleast Duke was formidable under Gail. She had Duke as a contender. She wasn't a great coach and did get upset in some games she should have won (2006 vs MD, 2007 vs Rutgers, 2004 vs Minnesota) but compare that to McCallie who gets her behind handed her to UConn by absurd scores every meeting and has faltered against the elite teams. Gail was one of the few coaches to come along and beat and challenge Pat and Geno.
Duke's recruiting wasn't out of this world good under Gail. Alana Beard for example, arguably the best player Gail had, was an "under the radar" type that Pat and Geno joked that they were going to fire their assistants for missing out on. I think most Duke fans would sign up for what they had under Gail in a heartbeat.
1999 loss was the biggest flub? Purdue and Tennessee were the best teams in the country that year (after Sue Bird got hurt). Purdue was favored to beat Duke. Not a flub.
Atleast Duke was formidable under Gail. She had Duke as a contender. She wasn't a great coach and did get upset in some games she should have won (2006 vs MD, 2007 vs Rutgers, 2004 vs Minnesota) but compare that to McCallie who gets her behind handed her to UConn by absurd scores every meeting and has faltered against the elite teams. Gail was one of the few coaches to come along and beat and challenge Pat and Geno.
Duke's recruiting wasn't out of this world good under Gail. Alana Beard for example, arguably the best player Gail had, was an "under the radar" type that Pat and Geno joked that they were going to fire their assistants for missing out on. I think most Duke fans would sign up for what they had under Gail in a heartbeat.
1999 loss was the biggest flub? Purdue and Tennessee were the best teams in the country that year (after Sue Bird got hurt). Purdue was favored to beat Duke. Not a flub.
bballnut90
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Great stuff Cam--I didn't realize GG was 3-0 against UT's 6pack (with 2 wins in TBA no less)...pretty remarkable.
bballnut90
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Couple things worth noting--those games she should have won that you listed...those losses were to VERY good teams. I believe Maryland in 2006 started 5 McDonald's All Americans, Rutgers was immensely talented in 2007 (starting Kia Vaughn, Matee Ajavon, Essence Carson and Piph Prince) and Minnesota had Whalen/McCarville (and the only reason why they were seeded so low is that Whalen was out for a good chunk of the season. With Whalen, Minnesota is easily a top 8 team.)
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Maryland and Rutgers were chokes.
Rutgers was a #4 seed and Duke was not just a #1, but the overall #1 I believe.
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They were chokes.
But McCallie choked against Michigan State in 2009. I know your going to say it was on MSU's home court but I don't care. If your a 1 seed you should beat an 8 seed wherever it's played. Ditto with losing to DePaul in the 2nd round on your home court. Duke was also in the lead for most of the game vs Baylor in the 2010 regional before blowing that.
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CamrnCrz1974
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We were able to surmise that from your posts.
Purdue was the OVERALL #1 seed that year and one of two favorites for the title (the other being Tennessee, the team Duke beat. Duke was a #3 seed. But somehow, Duke committed a flub in losing to a team with Ukari Figgs, Katie Douglas, Camille Cooper, etc. - all of whom went on to play several years in the WNBA, with Figgs and Douglas being starters on WNBA championship teams.
In 1996, Duke was building a program. The program was in the bottom of the basement when Goestenkors took over. In four years, she made that team relevant. And in her seventh year, the team was in the Final Four.
As for your statistics in that time period, you overlook the fact she made two national championship games and four Final Four appearances. From 1999 until 2007, Duke was a regular national title contender. 4 Final Fours, 7 Elite Eights, 7 30-win seasons (not to mention Goestenkors' record against UConn and Tennessee, her record against top five opponents, and her record against top ten opponents, all of which I posted for the 2001-2007 period). That loss to the 7th seed was to Minnesota with Whalen and McCarville, and Minnesota was ONLY seeded 7th because of all the losses the team sustained while Whalen was injured (she missed nearly 1/3 of the season).
More importantly, you claim she underachieved when she didn't beat #1 Purdue (when the team was a 3rd seed) despite making it to the NCAA Final, but then claim she underachieved when she lost to lower seeded teams n the Final Four and the Elite Eight.
So which is it? She loses to better teams and national title favorites, she underachieves (in your mind); she loses to lower seeded teams, even in the Final Four, she underachives. By that logic, unless she wins a national title every single year, she underachieves, in your estimation.
Whats that expression from Kandi Burress..."She kept saying she 'think' I owe her an apology. Good thing she don't get paid for thinking."
I have posted records, numbers, and FACTS throughout this thread.
There is no "consistent underperformance" with Goestenkors, as you claim. It is a internet/message board fiction that people have bought into over the years. The only year I will say that Goestenkors underachieved, in my estimation, was 2003, when Duke returned the most talent and had beaten TN, while UConn lost four of its starting five (but still had Diana...and we didn't) and Oklahoma lost its key players. Arguably, 2004 falls into that category as well.
But after 2004, people (including many on this site, the Summitt, etc.) thought that Duke and Gail Goestenkors were DONE because of the graduation of Alana Beard. Duke lost Beard, Iciss Tillis, and Vicki Krapohl to graduation, Brittany Hunter to transfer, and Lindsey Harding to suspension and was down to 7 healthy players by the end of the year...and still won 30 games, made the Elite Eight, and lost by ten points (after being tied at the half) to LSU, with Temeka Johnson, Sylvia Fowles, and Seimone Augustus. And that team beat TN in Knoxville.
In 2006, the team lost a heartbreaker of a national championship game to Maryland in overtime, in a year where Duke, Maryland, and UNC were all #1 seeds. Duke beat UConn in Bridgeport in the Elite Eight and beat LSU (still with Fowles and Augustus) in the Final Four.
In 2007, Duke had lost Monique Currie, Mistie Bass, and Jessica Foley to graduation, Laura Kurz to transfer, and Chante Black to injury (she missed the entire season). And yet, the team went through the regular season undefeated, beating Candice Parker in Knoxville (and starting out the game on a 19-0 run). The ONLY reason why Duke was upset by one point by Rutgers in the Sweet 16 was because of the speculation that Goestenkors was leaving for Texas, as the rumors were swirling and it was being talked about at every single press conference. That was a MAJOR distraction. But still, that game was an upset.
And if you look at the games from 2005, 2006, and 2007, you will see VASTLY different offensive and defensive sets than 2001-2004, the Alana Beard era. In fact, Beard's graduation made Goestenkors as much better coach, and the results prove it.
So for some unknown reason, you do not like her, which means you make bold proclamations about her career, wholly unsupported by facts, data, anecdotal evidence, or any semblance of objective thought. Got it, and noted for future reference.
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