UConn athletic department deficit reached $42 million in 2019 with a decline in ticket sales and league revenue

[CL82]

Many universities turn away kids and are at full capacity...FSU's 2019 class had 57,000 applications received and they admitted 19,230.

But...maybe that is not the issue....

I wonder if the NCAA allows waivering all out of state tuition for athletes on scholarship if that benefit isn't available to all students?

I understand that it may not make a difference on "full ride" scholarships where all costs are school supported....but what happens to all the partial scholarships? Do they get automatic in state tuition even if out of state?

Fair points, but how tuition is accounted for is essentially a journal entry. It can be whatever the school the school wants it to be.

 

[billybud]

Fair points, but how tuition is accounted for is essentially a journal entry. It can be whatever the school the school wants it to be.

You sure about that?

I know Florida public universities must report in-state vs out of state students....the tuition figures would not jive with the reported numbers.

A journal entry is auditable.

 

[billybud]

An auditor will follow a charge through the system to the source document...including the original application.

And may "test" the source document.

 

[CL82]

You sure about that?

I know Florida public universities must report in-state vs out of state students....the tuition figures would not jive with the reported numbers.

A journal entry is auditable.

Different thing right? Student athletes aren't paying tuition, at least for major sports.

I'm not aware of any external standard for allocating the cost of student athletes, are you? As long as the debit to athletic department and the credit to the university is reasonable it should be fine. Where it arguably gets trickier is partial grants, but there the amount that tuition is reduced is quantified.

Charging a student athlete the gross amount of out of state tuition doesn't reflect reality since it is a number that virtually no one pays.

 

[J187Money]

UConn is at a small financial disadvantage because so many of the athletes are out of state students...

Say, compared to FSU:

For the 2018-19 school year, the AVERAGE cost of an in-state, undergrad athletic scholarship was approximately $22,456 and out-of-state, undergrad was $36,804. Our student-athletes are currently, and traditionally, almost evenly divided between Florida residents and non-Florida residents. That means that half are subject to in-state tuition and half to out-of-state tuition...total athletic scholarship costs of $11.5 million.

The Athletic Department is required to pay all of the student-athletes’ scholarship expenses, including tuition. Gifts from annual Seminole Booster donors (Golden Chief, Silver Chief, Tomahawk, etc.) have been transferred to the Athletic Department to pay those scholarship costs.

Actual cost of delivery of an education is the same no matter where people come from. This is an accounting convention.

 

[billybud]

Actual cost of delivery of an education is the same no matter where people come from. This is an accounting convention.

Yes..But:

One may ask..if as you posted...

"Actual cost of delivery of an education is the same no matter where people come from. This is an accounting convention."

Why are different tuition fee schedules set in the first place?

A state university exists to educate the citizens of the state and there is almost always state taxpayer money allocated for that purpose.

Taxpayers of one state may not desire to pay tax money to educate citizens of other states.

Florida's public four year institutions have their tuitions set/approved by the Florida Legislature...and the legislature recognizes that fact and sets higher out of state fees.

In Connecticut, the State Board of Regents sets tuition for all state institutions except for the University of Connecticut..which is set by a single campus board.

The University of Connecticut, while suffering from what the President terms inadequate funding, still was funded $328 million in state funds...

The problem for the university is that UConn in 2019 is funded at the level it was in 2008...

And the cavalry doesn't appear to be coming...

“It looks like moving forward, tuition and fees will continue to fund an ever-increasing portion of the operation of the University of Connecticut,” said Rep. Gregg Haddad, D-Mansfield and co-chair of the appropriations subcommittee on higher education. “I wonder at what point do those increases in tuition and fees impact the choices students are making."

One might ask...can you afford to educate young people from other states?

And if out of state folks on athletic scholarship are charged differently than regular students, how does the NCAA view that?

And what would the NCAA say about all of the partial scholarship sports where tuition is split between an individual and a scholarship? Extra benefit if they pay in-state tuition?

 

[CL82]

Yes..But:

One may ask..if as you posted...

"Actual cost of delivery of an education is the same no matter where people come from. This is an accounting convention."

Why are different tuition fee schedules set in the first place?

A state university exists to educate the citizens of the state and there is almost always state taxpayer money allocated for that purpose.

Taxpayers of one state may not desire to pay tax money to educate citizens of other states.

Florida's public four year institutions have their tuitions set/approved by the Florida Legislature...and the legislature recognizes that fact and sets higher out of state fees.

In Connecticut, the State Board of Regents sets tuition for all state institutions except for the University of Connecticut..which is set by a single campus board.

The University of Connecticut, while suffering from what the President terms inadequate funding, still was funded $328 million in state funds...

The problem for the university is that UConn in 2019 is funded at the level it was in 2008...

And the cavalry doesn't appear to be coming...

“It looks like moving forward, tuition and fees will continue to fund an ever-increasing portion of the operation of the University of Connecticut,” said Rep. Gregg Haddad, D-Mansfield and co-chair of the appropriations subcommittee on higher education. “I wonder at what point do those increases in tuition and fees impact the choices students are making."

One might ask...can you afford to educate young people from other states?

And if out of state folks on athletic scholarship are charged differently than regular students, how does the NCAA view that?

Mmm, but none of that really impacts the cost to the school of education, right? I get the sense that you know that.

And what would the NCAA say about all of the partial scholarship sports where tuition is split between an individual and a scholarship? Extra benefit if they pay in-state tuition?

As noted above is the most logical approach just to account for the amount of the scholarship? The amount of the partial scholarship is a line item on the students bill.

 

[huskymedic]

Pure out of state tuition waivers that aren’t available to the rest of the student body (i.e. neighboring state reciprocity agreements) are generally not allowed by the NCAA.

Also the NCAA requires the reporting of tuition amounts and cost of attendance for both in-state and out of state student athletes each year.

 

[J187Money]

Yes..But:

One may ask..if as you posted...

"Actual cost of delivery of an education is the same no matter where people come from. This is an accounting convention."

Why are different tuition fee schedules set in the first place?

A state university exists to educate the citizens of the state and there is almost always state taxpayer money allocated for that purpose.

Taxpayers of one state may not desire to pay tax money to educate citizens of other states.

Florida's public four year institutions have their tuitions set/approved by the Florida Legislature...and the legislature recognizes that fact and sets higher out of state fees.

In Connecticut, the State Board of Regents sets tuition for all state institutions except for the University of Connecticut..which is set by a single campus board.

The University of Connecticut, while suffering from what the President terms inadequate funding, still was funded $328 million in state funds...

The problem for the university is that UConn in 2019 is funded at the level it was in 2008...

And the cavalry doesn't appear to be coming...

“It looks like moving forward, tuition and fees will continue to fund an ever-increasing portion of the operation of the University of Connecticut,” said Rep. Gregg Haddad, D-Mansfield and co-chair of the appropriations subcommittee on higher education. “I wonder at what point do those increases in tuition and fees impact the choices students are making."

One might ask...can you afford to educate young people from other states?

And if out of state folks on athletic scholarship are charged differently than regular students, how does the NCAA view that?

And what would the NCAA say about all of the partial scholarship sports where tuition is split between an individual and a scholarship? Extra benefit if they pay in-state tuition?

Right. But ultimately with regard to any given student - the cost of delivery of his/her education varies really on their major, etc. Not where they are from.

 

[billybud]

CL82..it is not the cost to the school...it is the subsidizing by state tax payers of out of state students...and the NCAA's stance on treating out of state sutudents differently if they have an athletic scholly...that is the crux.

 

[billybud]

Right. But ultimately with regard to any given student - the cost of delivery of his/her education varies really on their major, etc. Not where they are from.

OK...Are history majors charged considerably more tuition than math majors? I don't follow the relevancy of your comment to in-state vs out of state tuition charges.

 

[huskymedic]

 

[Bubba1957]

The gist, if FBS doesn't work out, then go to FCS. Well that's true for Uconn and every other FBS program, even Alabama. Nothing new here. I still insist there are plenty of positives to sell this program to kids/fans and media. Five P5s on the schedule next year with only a few months to put it together. It is already more interesting than any recent schedules.

 

[J187Money]

OK...Are history majors charged considerably more tuition than math majors? I don't follow the relevancy of your comment to in-state vs out of state tuition charges.

They aren't - but the reality is that if you wanted to assign a cost of delivery to each student - you could. That's not the way it works. But a history major and a chemistry major probably don't cost the same to educate. The fact that they both get charged the same price goes into the pricing policy - much like in-state/out-of-state tuition.

Point being - there is a pricing policy - and there is a cost of delivering services. The budgets are managed holistically - to achieve a desired outcome - demographics, etc. But to look at the AD math and say it is absolute - just isn't accurate. That is a cost accounting exercise - which is very much subject to decisions on how senior management wants to look at things. The only "audited" figures happen at the consolidated University level.

 

[billybud]

NO...

The difference between in state and out of state tuition is not the cost of education..but rather..

The cost of a partially government subsidized education vs an unsubsidized education.

Connecticut citizen-student tuition costs are subsidized in part by the Connecticut taxpayer...

Not so for out of state students who must bear the difference in the cost without subsidy.

Although the cost of educating an out of state student and in-state student may be the same...the cost to the university is greater for a student for which they do not receive state monies to educate.

And that is why there is such a thing as out of state tuition for public universities whose costs are partially subsidized by state taxes.

The University of Miami unlike Florida's public universities, as a private, charges the same for Florida students as it does for out of state students.

Same with Duke...private..no difference between tuition for in-state and out of state.

 

[billybud]

And in Connecticut...Yale does not differentiate tuition costs by state residence...because, as a private without a state government partial subsidy for Connecticut citizens, their costs are actually the same for in state and out of state.

 

[Husky25]

What are guys arguing about? 'Cause it seems like apples and dump trucks.

 

[J187Money]

NO...

The difference between in state and out of state tuition is not the cost of education..but rather..

The cost of a partially government subsidized education vs an unsubsidized education.

Connecticut citizen-student tuition costs are subsidized in part by the Connecticut taxpayer...

Not so for out of state students who must bear the difference in the cost without subsidy.

Although the cost of educating an out of state student and in-state student may be the same...the cost to the university is greater for a student for which they do not receive state monies to educate.

And that is why there is such a thing as out of state tuition for public universities whose costs are partially subsidized by state taxes.

The University of Miami unlike Florida's public universities, as a private, charges the same for Florida students as it does for out of state students.

Same with Duke...private..no difference between tuition for in-state and out of state.

That's a pricing convention. But it doesn't have anything to do with the cost of delivery. I'm not debating the merits of it - I'm just saying that it using in/out of state tuition numbers when calculating what it costs to deliver a scholarship doesn't make any sense. As a straw man - if the 2022 team is completely comprised of in-state players, does the cash flow of the school get any better? No. But the fake math that will spawn news articles in 2022 will say that the program is more profitable.

The issue being - we aren't getting money for the scholarships - so assigning different values to something that we are giving away for free is a notional concept - and pretty meaningless.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

The athletic department was given a shelf life the moment Gampel was built at 8k seats and the Rent was built in East Hartford. Too busy trying to save Hartford instead helping Storrs reach it’s potential as an actual college town.

 

[J187Money]

The athletic department was given a shelf life the moment Gampel was built at 8k seats and the Rent was built in East Hartford. Too busy trying to save Hartford instead helping Storrs reach it’s potential as an actual college town.

It didn't help - but hiring bad coaches was really the culprit.

 

[billybud]

That's a pricing convention. But it doesn't have anything to do with the cost of delivery. I'm not debating the merits of it - I'm just saying that it using in/out of state tuition numbers when calculating what it costs to deliver a scholarship doesn't make any sense. As a straw man - if the 2022 team is completely comprised of in-state players, does the cash flow of the school get any better? No. But the fake math that will spawn news articles in 2022 will say that the program is more profitable.

The issue being - we aren't getting money for the scholarships - so assigning different values to something that we are giving away for free is a notional concept - and pretty meaningless.

Turn it around...If the straw man 2022 team was completely out of state...and the university did not receive the state subsidy for these students and only received a partial education cost reimbursement (because the students are not state residents and not partially tax supported)...than the cost to the U go up.

You seem to miss the fact that state universities whose educational costs are, in part, subsidized by state tax money...all report in-state and out of state students to their oversight bodies...and the subsidized students in one column, and unsubsidized in the other (who pay the subsidy difference individually), must equal total costs.

The cost to the university is different for out of state students if the taxpayers of the state opt not to subsidize students who are residents in other states. The university must make up the difference by charging increased tuition.

I suppose that the state could waive out of state charges for athletic scholarships...but that opens more cans for the worms to wriggle out of.

 

[J187Money]

Honest question - is the state aid to UCONN based on the number of in-state students?

https://accountingoffice.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/143/2019/12/Fiscal-Year-Ended-June-30-2019.pdf

If you look at the financial statements it doesn't go into how the state appropriation is decided. So I'm not certain that the state is deciding specifically subsidize individual student groups. It appears to me that the state sets funding where it wants to - and the school may alter its mix of in-state/out of state students in order to capture enough revenue to balance the budget.

But my overarching point - what we "say" we are charging to someone we aren't actually charging is a made up number. To the extent that enrollment is fixed and taking one OOS athlete precludes us from taking an OOS paying student - sure there is a cost. But I'm not sure it actually works like that.

If we decided we didn't really want people from Saudi Arabia to attend UCONN - and therefore wanted to charge them $1M a year for tuition - and then we recruited a Football player from there - it wouldn't cost us $1M just because that is the rate we decided to charge them. I know that's a silly straw man - but that's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[billybud]

The identification of in-state and out of state students for tuition purposes is set in state statute. My assumption is that there is a reason for the statute's differentiation between in-state and non-resident students for tuition purposes.

For the purpose of assessing the cost of tuition, each UConn applicant will be classified as a Connecticut resident or a non-resident. The Office of Undergraduate Admissions uses the information provided by the Connecticut General Statutes to determine an applicant’s residency classification.

Statute requirements...10a-29

The following shall determine the status of a student:

(1) Every person having his domicile in this state shall be entitled to classification as an in-state student for tuition purposes. Except as otherwise provided in this part, no person having his domicile outside of this state shall be eligible for classification as an in-state student for tuition purposes;

....

 

[J187Money]

The identification of in-state and out of state students for tuition purposes is set in state statute. My assumption is that there is a reason for the statute's differentiation between in-state and non-resident students for tuition purposes.

For the purpose of assessing the cost of tuition, each UConn applicant will be classified as a Connecticut resident or a non-resident. The Office of Undergraduate Admissions uses the information provided by the Connecticut General Statutes to determine an applicant’s residency classification.

Statute requirements...10a-29

The following shall determine the status of a student:

(1) Every person having his domicile in this state shall be entitled to classification as an in-state student for tuition purposes. Except as otherwise provided in this part, no person having his domicile outside of this state shall be eligible for classification as an in-state student for tuition purposes;

....

We are talking past each other. I'm not debating what is or is not an IS or OOS student, and why that is what it is.

I'm simply stating that when we are giving someone a scholarship - we are not charging them anything. So pretending that the guy that lives in Springfield "costs" more than the guy that lives in Enfield is a meaningless accounting convention.

 

[billybud]

Yet...the athlete IS charged to the University at a cost...and that cost is differentiated by OOS-IS tuition differences. In that respect, the athlete is treated as any student regarding the tuition charges assigned.

I understand that the athlete is not charged....I do not see what that has to do with the subject. It is the University's cost for that education which counts...in this case the University absorbs the tuition cost rather than the student.

And the school's cost to educate is charged... like a regular student. The legislature made provisions to have non residents pay the cost of education without the Connecticut resident subsidy. And that cost of education differentiation between OOS-IS does not except athletic scholarships.

I may be talking past you...but only because I do not see the relevance of your point of the athlete student not paying his tuition versus the school footing his bill. The source of payment, the individual or school on his behalf, does not affect the charge off of tuition costs.