Traveling call on KU with about 25 seconds left

[uconndoit]

The guy catches the ball with two hands, without dribbling he jumps up to take a shot, decides against it in mid-air and drops the ball then recovers it with one hand and goes up for another 3-pt shot (which he makes).

Why is that traveling? How is what he did not equivalent to catching a pass with two hands, dribbling once (while moving his feet) and then taking a shot? I didn't question it at the time but my father just pinged me to ask if people are buzzing about that call.

 

[iam76]

always was the rule when i played. otherwise you would have people doing that all the time if they may be blocked....

 

[Burnsbros23]

its a travel. Think about how deadly a pump fake that would be if you could do it all the time. He couldnt be the first to touch the ball after he dropped it.

 

[uconndoit]

its a travel. Think about how deadly a pump fake that would be if you could do it all the time. He couldnt be the first to touch the ball after he dropped it.

On pure mechanics there no difference between that sequence and a catch, dribble and shoot sequence. So what's the rule? Is it just "you can't do that cus it would be bad for the game"?

 

[dsturdy5]

Your pivot foot must be on the floor when you start your dribble. In this case it was not. Travel.

 

[uconndoit]

Hmmm...

Here's Season ticket holders mildly interesting.

"In the NBA, a player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player. However, according to High School (NFHS) and College (NCAA) rules, there is no traveling violation as long as the official judges it to be an attempted shot."

 

[Dogdeacon]

Hmmm...

Here's Season ticket holders mildly interesting.

"In the NBA, a player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player. However, according to High School (NFHS) and College (NCAA) rules, there is no traveling violation as long as the official judges it to be an attempted shot."

The key to that rule in the High School/College is that in the official's judgement it HAS to be a legit attempt at the basket. If it was then he can grab it first. This comes up a lot in pickup basketball and since there are no officials to judge intent most games play with the college rule that you cannot grab your own untouched/airball.

I think the reason this rule exists on the college high school level is simply its much more likely on those levels to have frequent errant airballs and for the pro's they are so rare and so athletic that its almost always intentional or shooter has an unfair advantage in retrieving a close-in airball.

With respect to the initial question dsturdy nailed it, your pivot foot must be on the floor when you start your dribble

 

[uconndoit]

Thanks guys! I wanted a reason to deligitimize Cal's NC. So thanks for nothing!

 

[UConnSwag11]

sam young at pitt used to do that so well without traveling

 

[Tenspro2002]

The travel call confused me. I thought if anything it should have been a double-dribble (of the kind where you bounce it with two hands and then catch it yourself).

 

[Inyatkin]

Would've been something if they hadn't called it, though. Kentucky, all those freshmen, all that talent, in a three-point game for the title with a minute or so left? Would've been interesting, at least.

 

[uconndoit]

The travel call confused me. I thought if anything it should have been a double-dribble (of the kind where you bounce it with two hands and then catch it yourself).

That was my first thought but he had not yet dribbled when he jumped to take a shot and he recovered the ball with one hand, not two. So, even though it looked like a violation just on gut instinct, I wondered how to identify/describe that violation.

I'm still a little skeptical - I'm inclined to wonder whether "you must have your pivot foot on the floor when you start your dribble" is just there for this, and possibly other, situations but only where the result is an advantage for the ball handler.

For ex, if a guy catches a pass high in the air and drops the ball mid flight to start his dribble is that a violation? Or rather would that violation be called?

 

[Palatine]

We use to call it "up and down" and it was traveling.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Up and down, or a discontinue, is the correct violation. It's not technically a travel since he had his dribble, but you cannot jump with the ball and come back down with it. Doesn't matter if he had his dribble or not, that's a turnover.

 

[dsturdy5]

That was my first thought but he had not yet dribbled when he jumped to take a shot and he recovered the ball with one hand, not two. So, even though it looked like a violation just on gut instinct, I wondered how to identify/describe that violation.

I'm still a little skeptical - I'm inclined to wonder whether "you must have your pivot foot on the floor when you start your dribble" is just there for this, and possibly other, situations but only where the result is an advantage for the ball handler.

For ex, if a guy catches a pass high in the air and drops the ball mid flight to start his dribble is that a violation? Or rather would that violation be called?

You haven't yet established a pivot foot in this situation so no travel.

 

[dsturdy5]

The travel call confused me. I thought if anything it should have been a double-dribble (of the kind where you bounce it with two hands and then catch it yourself).

The double dribble mechanic has been used in this situation as has the traveling mechanic. They were interchangeable for a while. Now, I believe, the correct mechanic is to use the travel signal.

 

[Huskyfan990411]

It would be borderline impossible to guard someone if this was NOT a travel. How could a defender possibly challenge a shot from a player who has not yet dribbled? As soon as the shooter was challenged he could simply drop the ball and drive to the hoop while the defender is completely out of position trying to defend an attempted shot.

By calling this a travel at least a defender can commit to challenging the shot once he sees the offensive player leave his feet for an attempted shot. Without it a defender would have to concede the shot because once he leaves his feet the shooter could just drop the ball and drive by him.

Imagine a team of good shooters passing the ball around the 3 point line, jumping for a shot and either they would have a wide open look because the defender couldn't leave his feet with the risk the shooter just drops the ball and drives by him or the defender leaves his feet and then they drive right by him.

 

[ford82]

That was a clear travel (up and down). As many pointed out.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Did anyone else see Wes and the official wink at each other after that call? Anyone? Anyone? Huskymaniac?

 

[DogMania]

Up and down, or a discontinue, is the correct violation. It's not technically a travel since he had his dribble, but you cannot jump with the ball and come back down with it. Doesn't matter if he had his dribble or not, that's a turnover.

I replayed it once and wondered about that call. Let's see if I got this right:

He had not yet given up his dribble.

He left the floor with both feet and both hands on the ball.

Instead of shooting it, he put it back on the floor...now here's where it gets tricky....

...after one of his feet hit the floor and gathered the ball back again. That being the case it's a clear travel call.

...let's say before he came back down, which I'm not sure was the case. That too would appear to be a travel call as well since that is the same as moving your pivot foot before you begin to dribble.

This should not be confused with what takes place after one is in the act of dribbling. In that case the player can take either two steps and up or the jump-step (1 step and a 2 foot plant), but in either case the player has to continue the play with a shot or a pass. I believe if a player does a jump-step and holds the ball, they'll get called for a travel, but I might be wrong on that one.

Quite loosely related to this topic, If a player throws it off the backboard to himself where he takes a whole bunch of steps in between, wouldn't that be a travel? I'm not sure they call it that way, do they? I can understand if it hits the rim, that would be considered a shot and a player can restart with whatever they want to do, dribble, pass or shoot it again.

How about when a player loses control of the ball where he catches up with it and continues with his dribble w/out anyone touching it in between, I'm not sure if they call that one consistently one way or the other.

One last observation - I see players change their pivot foot quite often without getting a travel call. It often happens either when they first catch the ball or terminate their dribble. It's very hard for an official to catch which of the two feet is the established pivot during that instance when both feet come to a stop around the same time. I don't really have a problem with it since it is really hard for a ref to catch, but if you go by the letter of the law it is a travel when the player starts with one foot as their plant foot and then switches to the other as the pivot. This is most noticeable in the NBA where the players are real sloppy when it comes to establishing the pivot. The rule of thumb is if the foot work looks sloppy, i.e. happy feet, it's probably a travel, but IMO as long as there's not real advantage gained, no big deal, though sometimes it makes the game look sloppy. For some reason Paul Pierce is one who comes to mind that seems to have a lot of tap dancing before he goes on with his move.

 

[caw]

He would have been better served throwing the ball at Davis. In that case it wouldn't have been a travel. Considering how Davis was extended/moving he probably would have gotten the ball back.

 

[dsturdy5]

Quite loosely related to this topic, If a player throws it off the backboard to himself where he takes a whole bunch of steps in between, wouldn't that be a travel? I'm not sure they call it that way, do they? I can understand if it hits the rim, that would be considered a shot and a player can restart with whatever they want to do, dribble, pass or shoot it again.

How about when a player loses control of the ball where he catches up with it and continues with his dribble w/out anyone touching it in between, I'm not sure if they call that one consistently one way or the other.

One last observation - I see players change their pivot foot quite often without getting a travel call. It often happens either when they first catch the ball or terminate their dribble. It's very hard for an official to catch which of the two feet is the established pivot during that instance when both feet come to a stop around the same time. I don't really have a problem with it since it is really hard for a ref to catch, but if you go by the letter of the law it is a travel when the player starts with one foot as their plant foot and then switches to the other as the pivot. This is most noticeable in the NBA where the players are real sloppy when it comes to establishing the pivot. The rule of thumb is if the foot work looks sloppy, i.e. happy feet, it's probably a travel, but IMO as long as there's not real advantage gained, no big deal, though sometimes it makes the game look sloppy. For some reason Paul Pierce is one who comes to mind that seems to have a lot of tap dancing before he goes on with his move.

Your first scenario, the backboard one, is a shot. It is no different than throwing the ball off of an opposing player is considered a pass. You cannot let go of the ball and be the first person or object to touch it again unless the officials determine it was a shot attempt; an air ball situation here.

In your second situation, it depends on what the player was doing when he lost control of the ball and/or how he lost it.

• If he was dribbling this is called an "interrupted dribble". He may continue to dribble so long as he does not grab the ball first with two hands. If he had not yet dribbled the ball, he may do whatever he pleases when he gets it (within the legal limits of the game rules...)
• If he had already dribbled and then fumbles it while picking it up, it is an interrupted dribble as the ball had not yet come to rest.
• Lastly, if he had already dribbled and lost the ball while holding it, well how did he lose it? Did someone swipe it away? If so, then he can catch up and start his dribble again. Did he just drop it? If so, he can pick it up from where he stands but if he drops it on his own and chases it and then picks it up down court it is a double dribble.

Finally, in the NBA the travel call is very loosely interpreted. A little shuffle of the feet here and there isn't going to kill anyone in the NBA. I don't see it as much of an issue in college. The one big problem that happens with traveling, and I am one of many guilty of this, is when officials are looking for contact with the body and up to the rim, they miss the footwork that may have led to the play. A wide angle is the best angle but when you are working the post area(s), you often are cramped between the endline and a wall or people so you have to find the best angle for contact and many, many times you simply cannot see the feet from where you are standing.

 

[uconndoit]

You haven't yet established a pivot foot in this situation so no travel.

Had the KU guy established a pivot foot? Since this has become theoretical, let's assume that he did not establish his pivot foot - that he had both feet set when he caught the ball and didn't move either foot until he went up for the shot.

 

[dsturdy5]

Had the KU guy established a pivot foot? Since this has become theoretical, let's assume that he did not establish his pivot foot - that he had both feet set when he caught the ball and didn't move either foot until he went up for the shot.

Once you pick up one foot, the other becomes the pivot. If you lift both feet simultaneously without first establishing a pivot foot, you essentially lose the right to a pivot foot.

 

[uconndoit]

Once you pick up one foot, the other becomes the pivot. If you lift both feet simultaneously without first establishing a pivot foot, you essentially lose the right to a pivot foot.

Based on your answers to my questions and your references to NCAA basketball rules I get the sense you're saying the guy traveled.