Transcendent vs Transformative

[MSSportsGuy]

Thank you all for chiming in. I believe there are some great players listed here that were definitely transformative. Agreed there are also a lot of terrific players who came through already established programs who are phenomenal but wouldn't fit either category based on my definitions in the original post.

What I was really looking for is feedback whether or not Ionescu belongs in transcendent or is still at that transformative level. I used the examples of Diggins and Wilson because I am a fan of both and while I recognize their incredible talent, neither is at the level of the players I mentioned originally as transcendent. The jury may still be out on Ionescu since she has a year of college left to go and if healthy should keep Oregon in contention for the NC.

It is true that we as fans can only include those players who fit our framework of viewing. I am too young to remember Cheryil Miller playing but know she was incredible. I started watching the game in the early 90s when the limited opportunities presented themselves. Staley was exceptionally good for her time but I believe Bird is better. Swoopes was the first woman I saw who looked as though she was capable of playing the game in a way some male players could. I remember Lobo, humble yet tough, battling against UT and the team that started it all. Holdsclaw had many of the qualities of Swoopes yet she was the first female player I saw that could glide around the court (I was told Miller could do that as well). Bird and Catchings weren't in my original list but clearly both are transcendent based on their body of work over their full careers. Lastly, I said college career to place in the transcendent category and I mean it. I saw EDD a few times when she was at Delaware and I was as impressed with her as I was any of the players I mentioned along side her, she just didn't have the coaching or teammates necessary to really compete among the elite teams. I have thought before her college career was somewhat overlooked even with the gaudy numbers because of the fact it's Delaware and also how a small number of fans were still upset over her decision to play there rather than Uconn. I think it's fair to say it worked out well for her.

I am still very impressed in Ionescu and think she is the best player in the country overall. I just wasn't sure if you guys thought she was the next chosen one or part of an elite group that is just below that dividing line.

 

[CocoHusky]

Would like to take @bballnut90 criteria and add an additional filter: Taking a program to new heights (Championship) while playing at an extremely high level.

Ruth Riley- Led ND to first Championship
Cheryl Miller -2 NCAA Championships for USC-None since. Cheryl belongs in the (Parker, Moore, DT, Griner, Stewie)-GOATs category.
Sheryl Swoopes Led Texas Tech to a Championship
Anne Donovan-Made Old Dominion significant in WCBB
Nancy Liberman-Can't have an award named after you and not be transcendent
Danielle Adams -Led TA&M to only championship

Coaches:
Pat & Geno-duh!
Cathy Rush ( Immaculata) Innovator supreme for WCBB
Tara VanDerveer 2 Championships in a 3 year span.
Muffet McGraw

 

[biobioprof]

For those old enough to remember: I'd add Ann Meyers at UCLA to the transcendent or transformative players list.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Sheryl Swoopes Led TCU to a Championship

Texas Tech

 

[nwhoopfan]

Danielle Adams -Led TA&M to only championship

I think that's a big stretch. She was a good player on a team that happened to win a Championship, I wouldn't call her a transcendent player. If you're gonna include her you should pick some player from Texas '86, North Carolina '94, Purdue '99 and Maryland '06 since they were all singular Championships for their schools.

 

[DanishBulldog]

For those old enough to remember: I'd add Ann Meyers at UCLA to the transcendent or transformative players list.

True, but she had to wait for Lusia Harris of Delta State to graduate before she hit the top of the mountain.

 

[stwainfan]

What about Bridgette Gordon? She won 2 National Titles in 3 years. She also has her name in the banners with Holdasclaw, Catchings, Parker ect.

 

[bballnut90]

I think that's a big stretch. She was a good player on a team that happened to win a Championship, I wouldn't call her a transcendent player. If you're gonna include her you should pick some player from Texas '86, North Carolina '94, Purdue '99 and Maryland '06 since they were all singular Championships for their schools.

Well she fits the definition of players who led their team to a title (she was a 1st team AA and carried A&M to a title with 30 points in the championship) but she obviously isnt as good as the other players listed alongside her.

In regards to the other teams, Clarissa Davis from Texas should be on here. Former NPOY and MOP, helped lead Texas to the first ever undefeated season, went on to be an Olympian too.

Stephanie White would fall into the transformative category. Maryland was such a team effort with a lot of really good players, I'd give Langhorne the nod but any of her, Toliver (the shot), or Harper (MOP) could be argued there.

Others like Jennifer Azzi, Bridgette Gordon, and TSpoon should be included too if the definition is standout who won a title.


If we're going back to the main argument though of players who have more or less changed the game or are in the argument for best ever, I think the list is a LOT smaller. I'd cut it down to Stewart, Griner, Moore, Parker, DT, Holdsclaw, Miller and maybe Swoopes. Anyone 80s and 70s is before my time. I think to be in that crop you have to have won a title and proven that you're far advance compared to your peers. All of the above won titles and multiple POY honors (besides Swoopes who only played 2 years but won POY in 1 and was a 1st Teamer the other).

 

[CocoHusky]

I think that's a big stretch. She was a good player on a team that happened to win a Championship, I wouldn't call her a transcendent player. If you're gonna include her you should pick some player from Texas '86, North Carolina '94, Purdue '99 and Maryland '06 since they were all singular Championships for their schools.

It is a three part criteria 1)taking a program 2) to new heights (Championship) while 3) playing at an extremely high level. Unlike TA&M, these schools (Texas, North Carolina, Purdue, and Maryland) were all programs that had been close to a championship level shortly before or after winning those championships. In the world of WCBB the only thing TA&M was known for prior to that championship is being a bridesmaid to Baylor. Danielle Adams got them over the top and meets all three criteria.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Maryland was such a team effort with a lot of really good players, I'd give Langhorne the nod but any of her, Toliver (the shot), or Harper (MOP) could be argued there.

I was a fan of Shay Doron at the time.

 

[biobioprof]

It is a three part criteria 1)taking a program 2) to new heights (Championship) while 3) playing at an extremely high level. Unlike TA&M, these schools (Texas, North Carolina, Purdue, and Maryland) were all programs that had been close to a championship level shortly before or after winning those championships. In the world of WCBB the only thing TA&M was known for prior to that championship is being a bridesmaid to Baylor. Danielle Adams got them over the top and meets all three criteria.

I don’t think that’s right, but my perspective is warped by being too close to be objective. I think A&M under Blair and Vic was getting to be known for high pressure D that some opposing coaches at the time complained was too physical. Matthew Mitchell built up Kentucky on a similar philosophy but that was later. Maybe this was trending elsewhere before A&M but if so, I was not aware of it. The 2008 E8 loss to TN put us on the national map.

Adams contribution to changing the game, IMO, was in opening people to the idea that big girls could have a more complete game vs being specialized to play in the paint like the Paris sisters at OU. I think that was more influential than winning the one NC.

 

[Flyinsouth]

An argument in favor for Ionescu is look at where Oregon was as a program before she arrived. They were terrible and not relevant nationally whatsoever. Sabrina has lead the program to many firsts such as Elite 8 appearances in back to back years with a lineup of mostly Freshman and Sophomores and the programs first Final 4 (eventually bowing out to the eventual National Champions in back to back years). Another first oregon just signed the #1 recruiting class which I feel is a nod to her building something along with Graves at Oregon. A few of the players listed above came to top 10 programs that have won championships before and were accustomed to getting top 10 talent. Yes they may have achieved team success that surpassed Sabrina's up to this point but they had a far shorter ladder to climb and more seasoned talent surrounding them. I feel this argument will come down to whether Oregon finally gets over the hump this year and wins their first Championship. They will have their hands full just to win the PAC-12 but should be battle tested. If they are healthy there should be no excuses not to win it this year and thus the transcendent legacy will or won't be cemented!

 

[DallasBUFan]

Sophia Young for Baylor has yet to be mentioned. She let them to their first title ever, became Big 12 POY and an all American, Was the highest WNBA draftee to date at No.4, Rookie Team, 3x All Star, 3x All 2nd Team, and 1 time first team. Griner obviously is at another level. But Young played an interracial part in helping Kim put Baylor on the map in just her fifth year. One of Kim's true first recruits.

 

[Plebe]

Sophia Young for Baylor has yet to be mentioned. She let them to their first title ever, became Big 12 POY and an all American, Was the highest WNBA draftee to date at No.4, Rookie Team, 3x All Star, 3x All 2nd Team, and 1 time first team. Griner obviously is at another level. But Young played an interracial part in helping Kim put Baylor on the map in just her fifth year. One of Kim's true first recruits.

Actually, you already mentioned her, and before that @bballnut90 mentioned her as well.

 

[DallasBUFan]

Actually, you already mentioned her, and before that @bballnut90 mentioned her as well.

I didn't feel like I was heard. lol.....you stay on ready @Plebe

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I do think Young is more than deserving of the transformative label I wrote about earlier. I remember that FF well and figured we were headed for a UT-LSU final but Baylor and Michigan State both outplayed the SEC that night.

Again, I wasn't looking for a list necessarily but I don't mind the contributions and discussions about who falls where. I am not exactly a huge fan of Kim's attitude but she is a heck of a coach who has worked her way to one of the best in the game while doing it at a school with zero history before she arrived. I won't always defend her persona yet I will defend the fact she is an outstanding coach.

 

[meyers7]

But Young played an interracial part in helping Kim put Baylor on the map in just her fifth year. One of Kim's true first recruits.

I'm thinking, hoping, "integral"???

 

[DallasBUFan]

I'm thinking, hoping, "integral"???

HAHAHA yes. I should have gone to bed earlier.