Top 5 players (NCAA D1 women) in each position?

[SCspur]

PG:
Jordin Canada, UCLA
Lexie Brown, Duke
Ty Harris, SC
C. Dangerfield, UCONN
Brooke McCarty, TX

SG:
Asia Durr, Louisville
Kia Nurse, UCONN
Loryn Goodwin, Oklahoma State
Kelsey Mitchell, Ohio State (PG but could be better off the ball)
Sabrina Ionescu, Oregon

SF:
Katie Lou Samuelson, UCONN
Kaila Charles, Maryland
Jackie Young, Notre Dame
Victoria Vivians, Mississippi State
Jaime Nared, Tennessee

PF:
A'ja Wilson, South Carolina
Napheesa Collier, UCONN
Gabby Williams, UCONN
Myisha Hines-Allen, Louisville
Teana Muldrow, West Virginia

C:
Azura' Stevens, UCONN
Kalani Brown, Baylor
Tierra McCowan, Mississippi State
Megan Gustafson, Iowa
Stephanie Mavunga, Ohio State

All-Freshman Team:
Chennedy Carter, Texas A&M (NFOY)
Evina Westbrook, Tennessee
Megan Walker, UCONN
Mykea Gray, Miami
Bianca Jackson, South Carolina
Rennia Davis, Tennessee
Anastasia Hayes, Tennessee
Alexis Morris, Baylor
Sidney Cooks, Michigan State
Dana Evans, Louisville

 

[iamcbs]

PG:
Jordin Canada, UCLA
Lexie Brown, Duke
Ty Harris, SC
C. Dangerfield, UCONN
Brooke McCarty, TX

SG:
Asia Durr, Louisville
Kia Nurse, UCONN
Loryn Goodwin, Oklahoma State
Kelsey Mitchell, Ohio State (PG but could be better off the ball)
Sabrina Ionescu, Oregon

SF:
Katie Lou Samuelson, UCONN
Kaila Charles, Maryland
Jackie Young, Notre Dame
Victoria Vivians, Mississippi State
Jaime Nared, Tennessee

PF:
A'ja Wilson, South Carolina
Napheesa Collier, UCONN
Gabby Williams, UCONN
Myisha Hines-Allen, Louisville
Teana Muldrow, West Virginia

C:
Azura' Stevens, UCONN
Kalani Brown, Baylor
Tierra McCowan, Mississippi State
Megan Gustafson, Iowa
Stephanie Mavunga, Ohio State

All-Freshman Team:
Chennedy Carter, Texas A&M (NFOY)
Evina Westbrook, Tennessee
Megan Walker, UCONN
Mykea Gray, Miami
Bianca Jackson, South Carolina
Rennia Davis, Tennessee
Anastasia Hayes, Tennessee
Alexis Morris, Baylor
Sidney Cooks, Michigan State
Dana Evans, Louisville

What has Megan Walker done to this point in the season to be included on any list of top freshmen other than play at Connecticut? Neither her stats nor her level of play so far warrant her being included in any discussion of the country's top freshman.

 

[hoophuskee]

Sorry if I've upset you with my opinion. Kia's pretty much interchangeable with Durr right now, but Louisville has surpassed expectations to start the season and Durr's monster night in the biggest game of her year so far gives her the edge.

Note that I didn't list Ogunbowale over Nurse either...I just listed the 5 top players by each position, I didn't put them in order. The two of them are pretty comparable at this point IMO. Kia is more efficient but Arike is the stronger playmaker and is capable of taking over a game and carrying her team (for better or worse). She did have a bad game against Connecticut, but on the flip side she had a fantastic showing against South Carolina and is averaging 20ppg on the year.

You mention big games being important a la Morgan Tuck in 2016--I agree with this, but the only problem with your argument is Kia's best showings have been against unranked teams while Tuck had all of her best showings in the biggest games.

Here are Kia's numbers against teams in the current top 25:
Stanford-1/8 shooting, 0-2 from 3, 4 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 steal
Maryland-7/15 shooting, 5-8 from 3, 21 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, 1 steal
UCLA-3/7 shooting, 0-4 from 3, 11 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers, 1 steal
Notre Dame-5/6 shooting, 3-4 from 3, 13 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover, no steals

Averages: 16/36 shooting (44.4%), 8/18 from 3 (44.4%), 12.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 2.0 TO, .8 steals

Not bad by any means, but not All-American worthy either. If you include the Cal game, the percentages go up a few percent and the rest of the numbers are about the same. Obviously you should analyze statistics based on the entire season's body of work rather than solely off of games against ranked teams, but it is worth noting this.

I'm not upset. Why do you say I'm upset? Because I said "laughable" and used CAPS? A bit high-strung sometimes-- There are times one makes points that they think are right but don't feel strongly. There are other times one makes what they feel a strong pov.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sorry that you didn't list Og over Nurse. I saw Nurse as 5 and Og higher -so I thought that's what you did. Sorry bbaallnut!

As far as Kia Nurse -- UCONN has been threatened in two - 3 games.. The ND game and the Oklahoma/ UCLA game. I don't agree your mention of Stanford. I know you'll mention Oklahoma is not so good. But UCONN was threatened vs Okie - at least they were number 2 or 3 in terms of threat than any other team not named ND (and maybe UCLA) so far. UCONN blew out UCLA in the 3rd quarter . As for Stanford, they are not a big game so far this year-- in name only. UCONN was up 49-14 at halftime. Up by 16 at the end of 1st qtr. While Oklahoma is 5-6 and Stanford 6-6 imo you don't count the game that is a complete and total rout 1st qtr on. That's not a big game if the score was never close other than 0-0. If you are going to include Stanford, then you include all of the games.

In the Oklahoma game the score was 51-44 and with 4:21 left Oklahoma had the ball. We're not going to count this Oklahoma game vs Stanford in which UCONN was up by 35 at halftime? The Stanford stats are more relevant? In the Oklahoma game- Geno pulled Dangerfield with score 51-44 with 4:21 left and at the moment with Kia switching positions running the team. Okie could have cut it to 5. The game wound up being a blowout. So when you said "that's all she does" - well she is a pg too.

So if we add the Oklahoma game in and take out Stanford-- she is averaging 15.5 ppg and her EFG% is 68.42%. She turned around game being the pg. She outplayed Og head-to head. Her team has played a tougher schedule. Her team is Undefeated and number 1 in the nation. At this early stage she deserves the higher ranking than Og. Og is superior offensively to Nurse by taking more shots and missing. Anyhow even California should be mentioned above Stanford. And in that game Kia was also terrific. So while you overrate Stanford as a big game imo Oklahoma and California outshine Stanford. Winning THE MOST counts. HEAD-TO-HEAD counts. Efficiency at historical levels counts.

In summary- a guard getting more rebounds than another guard counts in Og's favor but not that much. Nurse as a guard shoots the ball better and she passes better while playing the tougher schedule. - and played better head-to-head. It's one thing if Nurse was only averaging 8-10 ppg. But she is 2nd on team in scoring at over 16.

 

[hoophuskee]

I wasn't clear enough in that the Okie game was 51-44 in 3rd qtr. Not the 4th qtr.

 

[Kaizen]

What has Megan Walker done to this point in the season to be included on any list of top freshmen other than play at Connecticut? Neither her stats nor her level of play so far warrant her being included in any discussion of the country's top freshman.

Megan is a UConn student what else you think she should play besides UConn?

 

[Plebe]

Based on her stats, have to include Nat Butler as Honorable Mention.

She could be included, certainly, but one factor that must be weighed is that George Mason has played an exceedingly weak schedule. Sagarin ranks their SOS #319. Natalie's numbers have been gaudy, but were less so against Michigan and Colorado, the two best teams she's faced.

If raw stats were the determining factor, then we'd also have to give at least honorable mention to Joyce Kennerson of TSU, who at 26.1 ppg is the nation's #2 scorer, just a hair behind Kelsey Mitchell and well ahead of #3 scorer A'ja Wilson.

Let's face it. If Butler weren't a transfer from UConn, she wouldn't have captured the attention of people on this board based solely on this season.

 

[bballnut90]

I'm not upset. Why do you say I'm upset? Because I said "laughable" and used CAPS? A bit high-strung sometimes-- There are times one makes points that they think are right but don't feel strongly. There are other times one makes what they feel a strong pov.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sorry that you didn't list Og over Nurse. I saw Nurse as 5 and Og higher -so I thought that's what you did. Sorry bbaallnut!

As far as Kia Nurse -- UCONN has been threatened in two - 3 games.. The ND game and the Oklahoma/ UCLA game. I don't agree your mention of Stanford. I know you'll mention Oklahoma is not so good. But UCONN was threatened vs Okie - at least they were number 2 or 3 in terms of threat than any other team not named ND (and maybe UCLA) so far. UCONN blew out UCLA in the 3rd quarter . As for Stanford, they are not a big game so far this year-- in name only. UCONN was up 49-14 at halftime. Up by 16 at the end of 1st qtr. While Oklahoma is 5-6 and Stanford 6-6 imo you don't count the game that is a complete and total rout 1st qtr on. That's not a big game if the score was never close other than 0-0. If you are going to include Stanford, then you include all of the games.

In the Oklahoma game the score was 51-44 and with 4:21 left Oklahoma had the ball. We're not going to count this Oklahoma game vs Stanford in which UCONN was up by 35 at halftime? The Stanford stats are more relevant? In the Oklahoma game- Geno pulled Dangerfield with score 51-44 with 4:21 left and at the moment with Kia switching positions running the team. Okie could have cut it to 5. The game wound up being a blowout. So when you said "that's all she does" - well she is a pg too.

So if we add the Oklahoma game in and take out Stanford-- she is averaging 15.5 ppg and her EFG% is 68.42%. She turned around game being the pg. She outplayed Og head-to head. Her team has played a tougher schedule. Her team is Undefeated and number 1 in the nation. At this early stage she deserves the higher ranking than Og. Og is superior offensively to Nurse by taking more shots and missing. Anyhow even California should be mentioned above Stanford. And in that game Kia was also terrific. So while you overrate Stanford as a big game imo Oklahoma and California outshine Stanford. Winning THE MOST counts. HEAD-TO-HEAD counts. Efficiency at historical levels counts.

In summary- a guard getting more rebounds than another guard counts in Og's favor but not that much. Nurse as a guard shoots the ball better and she passes better while playing the tougher schedule. - and played better head-to-head. It's one thing if Nurse was only averaging 8-10 ppg. But she is 2nd on team in scoring at over 16.

The all caps seemed a bit excessive, so that's what I was referring to.

And I'd argue there really has been just 1 game where UCONN was threatened...I wouldn't consider the 24 point win against OU as threatening or the game against UCLA when they were up by 29 with 7 minutes to go. Totally understand omitting Stanford in that argument.

I didn't see the second half of the Oklahoma game, but looking at the box score, the game blew open when they subbed out Dangerfield...but I'll go out on a limb and guess that it was primarily due to Collier/Stevens stepping up than Nurse shining as a PG. Kia didn't have any assists in the 2nd half and scored 3 points in the second half until the last 2 minutes when she scored 5 but the game was already over.

FWIW, Arike has also played a very strong schedule and has had her best games against the best teams on her schedule. Her numbers against other ranked teams are below....great showings besides Oregon State and UCONN:
neutral vs. South Carolina-23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 TO, 2 steals
neutral vs. USF-21 points, 9/16 shooting, 7 rebounds
at Michigan-32 points, 3 assists, 13-20 shooting, 4-6 from 3
at Oregon State-15 points, 4 rebounds, 5-18 shooting

She also had a great game against DePaul (cusp of top 25) and a good game against Marquette (another on the cusp top 25 team).

Notre Dame has also been arguably the 2nd best team this season, so I'd have a hard time validating 4 UCONN players on teams while leaving Notre Dame without a representative....especially when the game was so close head to head. But again, as I said previously, I think they're interchangeable at this point. Both are having very good seasons.

 

[SCspur]

What has Megan Walker done to this point in the season to be included on any list of top freshmen other than play at Connecticut? Neither her stats nor her level of play so far warrant her being included in any discussion of the country's top freshman.

Sorry but if you watched her play agaisnt UCLA and Notre Dame you would know she deserves to be on this list. When everyone doubted her shooting(myself included) she went on to shoot 3-3 bta as well as provide a spark off the bench agaisnt UCLA. Agaisnt Notre Dame she played some pretty good defense on Jackie Young and pulled down some tough rebounds to ice the game. Megan Walker is certainly one of the best freshman in the country no matter if she plays 5 minutes or 40.

 

[Mainiac]

Based on her stats, have to include Nat Butler as Honorable Mention.

Agreed. People can talk schedule all they want but let's not forget Natalie was either first or second in rebounds per 40 at uconn and in the top 5 in scoring per 40. She also had similar results pre uconn so hard to use schedule as an excuse.

 

[Plebe]

Agreed. People can talk schedule all they want but let's not forget Natalie was either first or second in rebounds per 40 at uconn and in the top 5 in scoring per 40. She also had similar results pre uconn so hard to use schedule as an excuse.

Respectable minds can disagree, but scheduling does matter IMHO. Michigan has been George Mason's only top-50 opponent, and in that game Natalie had 13 points and 9 rebounds in 34 minutes—a good stat line to be sure, but nothing that screams "top 5 in her position."

I'm not sure how relevant her performance in previous years should be. Whatever her "per 40" stats while at UConn, did anyone ever think, even after her best games as a Husky, that she was among the top 5 centers in the country? And when she was Big East FOY, was she on anyone's short list for National FOY?

Don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled for Natalie and the successful year she's having. But to be considered top 5 in one's position, I believe a player needs to show her quality against top competition.

 

[Mainiac]

Respectable minds can disagree on this, but scheduling does matter IMHO. Michigan has been George Mason's only top-50 opponent, and in that game Natalie had 13 points and 9 rebounds in 34 minutes—a good stat line to be sure, but nothing that screams "top 5 in her position."

I'm not sure how relevant her performance in previous years should be. Whatever her "per 40" stats while at UConn, did anyone ever think, even after her best games as a Husky, that she was among the top 5 centers in the country? And even when she was Big East FOY, did anyone have her on a short list for National FOY?

Don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled for Natalie and the successful year she's having. But to be considered top 5 in one's position, a player needs to show her stuff against top teams.

Plebe I'm good with your assessment and do agree on schedules do impact results. My point was Natalie didn't just come out of the closet as it seems that there are a few people that seem to forget her positive contributions especially against other bigs. I recall watching her shuting down the lane several ti.es last year and frustrating the heck out of the USC bigs specifically

 

[Eggman]

I think it's difficult to choose by category, because women's basketball is following the trend in the men's game toward "positionless" basketball.

The new positional awards introduced this year (Hoophall Awards) give us something to work from, but some of their designations puzzle me. Gustafson and Anigwe are on the watch list for power forwards, not centers. And Kia Nurse is on the point guard watch list, although she's been primarily a shooting guard with Dangerfield now starting.

But I'll start with my top 5 point guards *from schools other than UConn* (in alphabetical order):
Lexie Brown, Duke
Kelsey Mitchell, Ohio State
Loryn Goodwin, Oklahoma State
Chennedy Carter, Texas A&M
Jordin Canada, UCLA
Honorable mention: Tyasha Harris, South Carolina; Emily Clemens, Western Illinois; Tiana Mangakahia, Syracuse

My top 5 shooting guards *from schools other than UConn* (in alphabetical order):
Asia Durr, Louisville
Victoria Vivians, Mississippi State
Arike Ogunbowale, Notre Dame
Sabrina Ionescu, Oregon (could be either PG or SG; she and Cazorla are interchangeable in the two roles).
Tyler Scaife, Rutgers
Honorable mention: Allazia Blockton, Marquette; Kitija Laksa, South Florida

I'm not including McPhee or Tynice Martin because they've been injured for most or all of the season so far.

I'll do the other three positions a little later.

In alphabetical order? I like the effort a number of picks. I looked at your post again and realized you did it in alphabetical order of school, rather than player.

 

[jonson]

Although I agree that Ionescu and Cazorla are mostly interchangeable in the Oregon offense, Ionescu's statistics--103 total assists (current NCAA rank 3rd); and 7.9 assists/game (current NCAA rank 4th)--suggest to me that, in lists like this, she has to be considered a point guard--and certainly among the top 5. She can score (obviously), but what stands out most (to me, anyway) is, first, the assists (her court vision rivals Dangerfield's), and, second, the rebounding.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Lots of good lists. I'm not gonna try to do a top 5 for each position. A few names I haven't seen at all, borderline for being in consideration but definitely deserve Honorable Mention, since a few posters have done that.

C Marie Gulic Oregon St.
PF Jill Barta Gonzaga
PG Mikayla Pivec Oregon St.
Freshman Satou Sabally Oregon (can't believe she wasn't already listed but I didn't see her); Aleah Goodman Oregon St. (currently tied for 2nd in the nation in 3 point shooting)

Yeah, I'm showing my West Coast bias. Those are all good players though. I'd take Gulic ahead of Natalie Butler in a heartbeat.

 

[hoophuskee]

The all caps seemed a bit excessive, so that's what I was referring to.

And I'd argue there really has been just 1 game where UCONN was threatened...I wouldn't consider the 24 point win against OU as threatening or the game against UCLA when they were up by 29 with 7 minutes to go. Totally understand omitting Stanford in that argument.

I didn't see the second half of the Oklahoma game, but looking at the box score, the game blew open when they subbed out Dangerfield...but I'll go out on a limb and guess that it was primarily due to Collier/Stevens stepping up than Nurse shining as a PG. Kia didn't have any assists in the 2nd half and scored 3 points in the second half until the last 2 minutes when she scored 5 but the game was already over.

FWIW, Arike has also played a very strong schedule and has had her best games against the best teams on her schedule. Her numbers against other ranked teams are below....great showings besides Oregon State and UCONN:
neutral vs. South Carolina-23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 TO, 2 steals
neutral vs. USF-21 points, 9/16 shooting, 7 rebounds
at Michigan-32 points, 3 assists, 13-20 shooting, 4-6 from 3
at Oregon State-15 points, 4 rebounds, 5-18 shooting

She also had a great game against DePaul (cusp of top 25) and a good game against Marquette (another on the cusp top 25 team).

Notre Dame has also been arguably the 2nd best team this season, so I'd have a hard time validating 4 UCONN players on teams while leaving Notre Dame without a representative....especially when the game was so close head to head. But again, as I said previously, I think they're interchangeable at this point. Both are having very good seasons.

Then if we agree that there was only one tough game with UCONN and Nurse was solid, then why make it a big point to initially reply to me the one comment I made "Nurse playing well in big games?" You bring up "big games" yet ignore the games that were at least within 15 into the 3rd quarter? I don't understand why you would have focused on that one minor point I made but not the other points. Furthering that point, I don't understand why you would have included Stanford as a big game. They are right now 6-6 and the 1st qtr it was a 16 point lead, and the 2nd it was a 35 point lead. Anyways that is eithee here nor there.
All the other points I made that UCONN has stronger schedule (for some reason you mentioning ND has the 2nd strongest. But who has the strongest?), UCONN is undefeated (ND is not), Nurse outplayed Og and Nurse shoots the ball better and passes the ball better - yet you focused on my single point of "big games?" So games that are somewhat close into 3rd qtr don't hold any more weight than Stanford get blown out int he 1st qtr and absolutely annihilated int he 2nd? You couldn't even use California instead of Stanford? You are picking a game in which UCONN is up ahead by 35 points at halftime for a team that is 6-6 and calling that "a big game?"

Second point-- you tell me you say the Oklahoma Game in the 3rd qtr had more to do with Gabby/Collier. I don't agree at all. So if I feel I know I'm right and I know you are wrong (ofc this is my opinion but as I've mentioned sometimes we have strong opinions - in this case in my opinion I feel I'm absolutely right) - how can I convey that to you or others without appearing mad? I'm not mad. So I use CAPS sometimes. But I think I'm undoubtedly right. I'm wrong a lot. But in this case what if I feel I'm undoubtedly right?

Third point - I did mention Og. So I didn't leave ND "off." And the stats you are using to justify her-- that's great. That's why I put her on the list.
As you put it with UCONN I sort of feel with ND-- "What's interesting is that I could see a number of ND players not making an AA team this year because their numbers are more spread out (other than Og) across 4 players." Og will make A/A - I have her on. And I wouldn't be surprised JShepard to jump ahead of other centers I have on the list. But nowhere did I exclude Og. So I do agree with you they are both having very good seasons but it's Nurse right now in a landslide. Nurse's numbers are historic for a sg that is 2nd on the team in scoring for the number 1 team in the country in which Nurse outplayed Og head-to-head in which UCONN has had a tougher schedule. I don't see how head-to-head should be dismissed just because Og takes more shots (and misses) and doesn't pass as well (for a guard).

IMO this is similar to the days on the old espn board when there were many discussions as to who was better Angel or Maya. Those that favored Angel were more hung up on one-on-one. Og is a better one-on-one player than Nurse. Nurse is far superior in shooting and is a better passer and was better this year head-to-head. That doesn't make them "even." Or that close to "even."

Anyways Marry Christmas/Happy Holidays!

 

[HumblePie]

What has Megan Walker done to this point in the season to be included on any list of top freshmen other than play at Connecticut? Neither her stats nor her level of play so far warrant her being included in any discussion of the country's top freshman.

Megan is a UConn student what else you think she should play besides UConn?

As usual you missed his point ... which IS, if Megan didn't play for the #1 team in the country (UConn) we wouldn't even know who she was (based on her output for the season to date).

 

[stwainfan]

A article about one of my picks.

 

[bballnut90]

Then if we agree that there was only one tough game with UCONN and Nurse was solid, then why make it a big point to initially reply to me the one comment I made "Nurse playing well in big games?" You bring up "big games" yet ignore the games that were at least within 15 into the 3rd quarter? I don't understand why you would have focused on that one minor point I made but not the other points. Furthering that point, I don't understand why you would have included Stanford as a big game. They are right now 6-6 and the 1st qtr it was a 16 point lead, and the 2nd it was a 35 point lead. Anyways that is eithee here nor there.
All the other points I made that UCONN has stronger schedule (for some reason you mentioning ND has the 2nd strongest. But who has the strongest?), UCONN is undefeated (ND is not), Nurse outplayed Og and Nurse shoots the ball better and passes the ball better - yet you focused on my single point of "big games?" So games that are somewhat close into 3rd qtr don't hold any more weight than Stanford get blown out int he 1st qtr and absolutely annihilated int he 2nd? You couldn't even use California instead of Stanford? You are picking a game in which UCONN is up ahead by 35 points at halftime for a team that is 6-6 and calling that "a big game?"

Second point-- you tell me you say the Oklahoma Game in the 3rd qtr had more to do with Gabby/Collier. I don't agree at all. So if I feel I know I'm right and I know you are wrong (ofc this is my opinion but as I've mentioned sometimes we have strong opinions - in this case in my opinion I feel I'm absolutely right) - how can I convey that to you or others without appearing mad? I'm not mad. So I use CAPS sometimes. But I think I'm undoubtedly right. I'm wrong a lot. But in this case what if I feel I'm undoubtedly right?

Third point - I did mention Og. So I didn't leave ND "off." And the stats you are using to justify her-- that's great. That's why I put her on the list.
As you put it with UCONN I sort of feel with ND-- "What's interesting is that I could see a number of ND players not making an AA team this year because their numbers are more spread out (other than Og) across 4 players." Og will make A/A - I have her on. And I wouldn't be surprised JShepard to jump ahead of other centers I have on the list. But nowhere did I exclude Og. So I do agree with you they are both having very good seasons but it's Nurse right now in a landslide. Nurse's numbers are historic for a sg that is 2nd on the team in scoring for the number 1 team in the country in which Nurse outplayed Og head-to-head in which UCONN has had a tougher schedule. I don't see how head-to-head should be dismissed just because Og takes more shots (and misses) and doesn't pass as well (for a guard).

IMO this is similar to the days on the old espn board when there were many discussions as to who was better Angel or Maya. Those that favored Angel were more hung up on one-on-one. Og is a better one-on-one player than Nurse. Nurse is far superior in shooting and is a better passer and was better this year head-to-head. That doesn't make them "even." Or that close to "even."

Anyways Marry Christmas/Happy Holidays!

Happy Holidays to you, too. I’ll keep this pretty short since the argument is getting off course from the main topic.

I mentioned that I do understand not listing Stanford as a big game, since in hindsight it wasn’t. I was just going by the teams in the top 25 right now where Stanford is included in both polls. And I did note Cal since they are in one of the polls.

Oklahoma was a closer game, but it was not a big game by any means. If you looked at last season, would you place more value on performances against Notre Dame and South Carolina or the 2-3 point game vs TCU? Quality of opponent is what’s important IMO, not how close the game was.

In regards to the one on one comment—I agree it’s far from the end all be all, but Arike has a lot of other skills that Kia doesn’t. Just the other day she carried Notre Dame and scored 10 points in the overtime period to create separation vs. Marquette. I don’t think you’d ever see Kia take over a game like that. And while Kia is a better shooter when she standstill catch and shoots, Arike is much stronger shooter off the dribble and is a better midrange scorer. They each have their strengths. To summarize, I’d just say we can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[HumblePie]

Let's face it. If Butler weren't a transfer from UConn, she wouldn't have captured the attention of people on this board based solely on this season.

More than a valid point (and it's the same for anyone considering Megan Walker for the All-Freshman team based on play to date). You have definitely done your homework in making your various selections. I give you a standing ovation for this. Many won't (and don't agree) with every pick, but you have demonstrated why you made them and didn't just list out a bunch of players you know nothing about. Great job!

 

[Kaizen]

As usual you missed his point ... which IS, if Megan didn't play for the #1 team in the country (UConn) we wouldn't even know who she was (based on her output for the season to date).

I am not missing the point.

Megan is the #1 high school player in her class. We all know who she is even she does not play for UConn or she is good or bad on her output for the season to date, except you.

As usual you just show how narrow-minded you are ...grandpa

 

[hoophuskee]

Happy Holidays to you, too. I’ll keep this pretty short since the argument is getting off course from the main topic.

I mentioned that I do understand not listing Stanford as a big game, since in hindsight it wasn’t. I was just going by the teams in the top 25 right now where Stanford is included in both polls. And I did note Cal since they are in one of the polls.

Oklahoma was a closer game, but it was not a big game by any means. If you looked at last season, would you place more value on performances against Notre Dame and South Carolina or the 2-3 point game vs TCU? Quality of opponent is what’s important IMO, not how close the game was.

In regards to the one on one comment—I agree it’s far from the end all be all, but Arike has a lot of other skills that Kia doesn’t. Just the other day she carried Notre Dame and scored 10 points in the overtime period to create separation vs. Marquette. I don’t think you’d ever see Kia take over a game like that. And while Kia is a better shooter when she standstill catch and shoots, Arike is much stronger shooter off the dribble and is a better midrange scorer. They each have their strengths. To summarize, I’d just say we can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

But you did list Stanford as a big game and used those stats to sort of downplay Nurse. And looking back at last year of Stanford or Oklahoma etc imo is irrelevant. Is Stanford a big game this year? And the answer is no. I didn't look at the polls (do the polls show Stanford at 6-6?) - I looked at ncaa rpi and Sagarin - and I glanced at Massey. Stanford is rating in the 30's while California was rated higher. So I was just asking "why Stanford?" - when I believe they have no business this year being considered a big game for our discussion purposes. You mentioned California but used the Stanford stats to downplay Nurse. Further I included Oklahoma because so far they were the 3rd closest maybe even 2nd closest in terms of being close in the 2nd half. IMO that makes them much, much, much more relevant than Stanford. I'd think in evaluating player's it is far more important to see how they did when a game was close vs a 35 halftime blowout. Because you want me to look back at last year to determine if this year is a big game -- then you would never "after-the-fact" consider saying the Tulane game which UCONN won last year "as a big game" while using those stats to define a player "in big games?" IMO last year for example the Tulane game was big. We'd want to see who can perform in the clutch while also exposing a flaw or two. When it comes to evaluating a player-- when you are up 35 at halftime with a team that is nothing more than a 6-6 team, you're not a "big game team by any means." There si no pressure on the palyers. All we learned in that game was UCONN Team was far superior and Stanford was lousy.

While you want to give big kudos for Og what she did in Overtime vs Marquette- I'd be interested to know why 1-- the ball didn't see Shepard more. And 2-- WHy was she was 4-14 from the floor vs a a team which is far superior to Marquette? Taking bad shots or missing wide open ones or something else? But going 4-14 in a close game leading into Ovt in which she is the best player and her team is far superior- I wouldn't go give her a lot of Kudos in this game. It's not like I'm not giving her credit. But this game shouldn't have reached overtime. I have her as an all-american though. She would be in my 2nd grouping at this moment. I'm interested to see her future matchups with Durr.

The reason why I get into this -- is that I disagree with you and others is that all I see is that you must look at one-on-one as a priority vs efficiency. Am I wrong? Otherwise what else relevant is Og vs Nurse when you consider Nurse is averaging 16 and outplayed Og head to head-to-head? The efficiency from Nurse is "out-of-this world" and she is scoring. An secondly you arent' giving Nurse imo anything near the credit she deserves vs Oklahoma. On this site there were some UCONN fans that last year didn't seem to appreciate Lou's ability to shoot. And over and over I read many compare players using fg% and not efg% or some other variant. FG% is flawed if you are comparing players that also shoot 3's. One can always google efg calculator and see. So it's not hard. My point is -- efficiency is important. Winning and outplaying another player head-to-head is important. Because a player can go one-on-one better doesn't make them better. When Beard and DT came out college, quite a few thought Beard was better and would be the better pro. IMO this one-on-one is superior-- it's flawed thinking unless you prove to be unstoppable.

Bill Russell once said how they'd defend Wilt was throughout the game they'd guard Wilt a bit loose so he'd take many of the shots. Late int he game they'd guard him much tighter and force him to pass. His teammates though were out-of-rhythm. When Don Nelson was a good coach early on with the Bucks there was an article in which he stated something similar. Nelson gave an example of his coaching style = though he never gave the opposing player's name but said in 1st qtr they wouldn't guard him very tough. Each qtr they would subsequently guard him tougher. By the the 4ht qtr he would say that player would never give up the ball even if you threw multiple players at him. Just because Og can go better one-on-one -- doesn't maker her better. I'd like to know why Shepard and the other ND bigs didn't get more touches vs Marquette.

 

[CocoHusky]

You don't consider Brooke McCarty from Texas as a Top 5 PG?

No so far this year.

 

[bballnut90]

But you did list Stanford as a big game and used those stats to sort of downplay Nurse. And looking back at last year of Stanford or Oklahoma etc imo is irrelevant. Is Stanford a big game this year? And the answer is no. I didn't look at the polls (do the polls show Stanford at 6-6?) - I looked at ncaa rpi and Sagarin - and I glanced at Massey. Stanford is rating in the 30's while California was rated higher. So I was just asking "why Stanford?" - when I believe they have no business this year being considered a big game for our discussion purposes. You mentioned California but used the Stanford stats to downplay Nurse. Further I included Oklahoma because so far they were the 3rd closest maybe even 2nd closest in terms of being close in the 2nd half. IMO that makes them much, much, much more relevant than Stanford. I'd think in evaluating player's it is far more important to see how they did when a game was close vs a 35 halftime blowout. Because you want me to look back at last year to determine if this year is a big game -- then you would never "after-the-fact" consider saying the Tulane game which UCONN won last year "as a big game" while using those stats to define a player "in big games?" IMO last year for example the Tulane game was big. We'd want to see who can perform in the clutch while also exposing a flaw or two. When it comes to evaluating a player-- when you are up 35 at halftime with a team that is nothing more than a 6-6 team, you're not a "big game team by any means." There si no pressure on the palyers. All we learned in that game was UCONN Team was far superior and Stanford was lousy.

While you want to give big kudos for Og what she did in Overtime vs Marquette- I'd be interested to know why 1-- the ball didn't see Shepard more. And 2-- WHy was she was 4-14 from the floor vs a a team which is far superior to Marquette? Taking bad shots or missing wide open ones or something else? But going 4-14 in a close game leading into Ovt in which she is the best player and her team is far superior- I wouldn't go give her a lot of Kudos in this game. It's not like I'm not giving her credit. But this game shouldn't have reached overtime. I have her as an all-american though. She would be in my 2nd grouping at this moment. I'm interested to see her future matchups with Durr.

The reason why I get into this -- is that I disagree with you and others is that all I see is that you must look at one-on-one as a priority vs efficiency. Am I wrong? Otherwise what else relevant is Og vs Nurse when you consider Nurse is averaging 16 and outplayed Og head to head-to-head? The efficiency from Nurse is "out-of-this world" and she is scoring. An secondly you arent' giving Nurse imo anything near the credit she deserves vs Oklahoma. On this site there were some UCONN fans that last year didn't seem to appreciate Lou's ability to shoot. And over and over I read many compare players using fg% and not efg% or some other variant. FG% is flawed if you are comparing players that also shoot 3's. One can always google efg calculator and see. So it's not hard. My point is -- efficiency is important. Winning and outplaying another player head-to-head is important. Because a player can go one-on-one better doesn't make them better. When Beard and DT came out college, quite a few thought Beard was better and would be the better pro. IMO this one-on-one is superior-- it's flawed thinking unless you prove to be unstoppable.

Bill Russell once said how they'd defend Wilt was throughout the game they'd guard Wilt a bit loose so he'd take many of the shots. Late int he game they'd guard him much tighter and force him to pass. His teammates though were out-of-rhythm. When Don Nelson was a good coach early on with the Bucks there was an article in which he stated something similar. Nelson gave an example of his coaching style = though he never gave the opposing player's name but said in 1st qtr they wouldn't guard him very tough. Each qtr they would subsequently guard him tougher. By the the 4ht qtr he would say that player would never give up the ball even if you threw multiple players at him. Just because Og can go better one-on-one -- doesn't maker her better. I'd like to know why Shepard and the other ND bigs didn't get more touches vs Marquette.

Like I said, I was putting stats from games against teams in the top 25 since that’s usually the best measure of opponent quality. That’s why Stanford was included while Oklahoma wasn’t.

I value performances against stronger teams more than games against lesser teams that are close in margin. Typically the closer games are against better teams, but if not I usually believe it’s a reflection of UCONN not playing well rather than the opposing team proving they can hang with the Huskies.

I didn’t see the Notre Dame-Marquette game so I cannot comment on it other than what I saw in box score. It didn’t appear that she had a great first 40 minutes, but she took over overtime. Marquette is also on the cusp of being a top 25 team and pushed Notre Dame and Tennessee to overtime. I agree, it probably shouldn’t have gone to overtime based on talent, but Marquette is no slouch.

Kia is the more efficient shooter. I’m not questioning that and I’ve admitted that. A big part of that is due to the vast vast majority of her shots being uncontested jumpers and layups. To her credit, she’s hitting her shots and is more efficient. That’s probably her strongest argument for being on a team at this point.

And in regards to focusing on one on one play, if you reread my post, I also stated, “Arike is much stronger shooter off the dribble and is a better midrange scorer.”

In addition to those skills, she’s a better ball handler, better at getting to the line, better at taking the ball to the basket, she’s quicker, a stronger rebounder, has a faster release and finishes better with contact. Lots of things outside of one on one play.

Also—passing wise, Arike is much improved and her assists and A/TO ratio is about the same as Kia’s this year.

I don’t find the Chamberlain comparison at all relevant when looking at Arike.

 

[GoCardinal]

UConn’s offense isn’t centered around isolation and me ball like Notre Dame’s sometimes is. So Kia likely won’t “take over a game” because their offense requires the ball to move around until there’s an open shot. This is why no one’s individual stats pop out. Any of them can go for 20+ any night.

 

[bballnut90]

UConn’s offense isn’t centered around isolation and me ball like Notre Dame’s sometimes is. So Kia likely won’t “take over a game” because their offense requires the ball to move around until there’s an open shot. This is why no one’s individual stats pop out. Any of them can go for 20+ any night.

True—but players at UCONN can take over games even if the offense is focused on ball movement. Gabby took over many games last year, any of the Big 3 from 2016 could take over games, KLS/Collier have taken over games too. Kia scores almost all of her points on layups and uncontested jumpers. She rarely makes big plays besides these on the offensive end, let alone stringing multiple plays together on the offensive end. Can she? Maybe, but we haven’t seen her do that yet. That’s what I’m referring to when talking about taking over a game.

 

[GoCardinal]

True—but players at UCONN can take over games even if the offense is focused on ball movement. Gabby took over many games last year, any of the Big 3 from 2016 could take over games, KLS/Collier have taken over games too. Kia scores almost all of her points on layups and uncontested jumpers. She rarely makes big plays besides these on the offensive end, let alone stringing multiple plays together on the offensive end. Can she? Maybe, but we haven’t seen her do that yet. That’s what I’m referring to when talking about taking over a game.

Fair point, but I think she just understands her role for that particular team. I think in international play for team Canada she takes on more of an aggressive scoring role.

 

[hoophuskee]

Like I said, I was putting stats from games against teams in the top 25 since that’s usually the best measure of opponent quality. That’s why Stanford was included while Oklahoma wasn’t.

I value performances against stronger teams more than games against lesser teams that are close in margin. Typically the closer games are against better teams, but if not I usually believe it’s a reflection of UCONN not playing well rather than the opposing team proving they can hang with the Huskies.

I didn’t see the Notre Dame-Marquette game so I cannot comment on it other than what I saw in box score. It didn’t appear that she had a great first 40 minutes, but she took over overtime. Marquette is also on the cusp of being a top 25 team and pushed Notre Dame and Tennessee to overtime. I agree, it probably shouldn’t have gone to overtime based on talent, but Marquette is no slouch.

Kia is the more efficient shooter. I’m not questioning that and I’ve admitted that. A big part of that is due to the vast vast majority of her shots being uncontested jumpers and layups. To her credit, she’s hitting her shots and is more efficient. That’s probably her strongest argument for being on a team at this point.

And in regards to focusing on one on one play, if you reread my post, I also stated, “Arike is much stronger shooter off the dribble and is a better midrange scorer.”

In addition to those skills, she’s a better ball handler, better at getting to the line, better at taking the ball to the basket, she’s quicker, a stronger rebounder, has a faster release and finishes better with contact. Lots of things outside of one on one play.

Also—passing wise, Arike is much improved and her assists and A/TO ratio is about the same as Kia’s this year.

I don’t find the Chamberlain comparison at all relevant when looking at Arike.

Ha- just like the old days on the old espn board in which you and I disagree on nearly everything.

Everything you said here is a combination of either wrong, irrelevant and bias/or just throwing things out there to keep the fight alive. I was about to post a detailed reply but decided against it. I didn't want to appear "mad" and maybe I thought many on this site would be bored with our continual debate. But everything you've said here just doesn't make sense/or not relevant/or bias or a combo vs our original argument of "college all-americans."

 

[Plebe]

View attachment 27157

I'm assuming that you meant Teaira McCowan (of Mississippi State), rather than Tierra McGowan (of Morehead State)?

Two different players—with uncannily similar names, and both of whom play for "MSU"—currently side-by-side in the NCAA rebounding stats: