Top 25 Players List

[cwaduke]

If Caroline had played earlier in the season, her name would be higher than CW's.

 

[CBus13]

I feel like Veronica Burton is being undervalued. She should be in the mid-teens at least. While her team isn't making that much noise, they did beat Iowa, she's not surrounded by nearly the same talent as many others on this list and yet she's 3rd in Win Shares in the nation.

She's averaging 18pts, 5.6 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 4.1 steals, 1.1 blocks and 2 TO's a game. Northwestern is 10-4 and has lost some surprising games, she does it all for that team.

 

[maccca3232]

Here is a comparison to the recently released Wooden Mid-Season List.

 

[Bigboote]

There are several players on this list based on reputation or based on last year's performance. A few also seem to be undervalued simply because they weren't on the preseason list.

 

[bballnut90]

There are several players on this list based on reputation or based on last year's performance. A few also seem to be undervalued simply because they weren't on the preseason list.

This 100%. This list feels rushed.

All of the players who weren't ranked preseason are sorely under ranked:

Ayoka Lee (9) should be top 5, arguably #2 or #3. She's been money all season and soundly outplayed Nalyssa Smith head to head. Against Baylor, Iowa State, NC State, and South Carolina she's averaged 25.8 points, 9.5 boards, 3.3 blocks and has shot 57% from the floor.

Pointer is top 5 IMO (currently 20). It's laughable that Osborne is ranked right in front of her. Pointer is better in every single statistical category, LSU is a top 15 team and UCLA is underperforming and not an NCAA team at this point.

Angel Reese (12) is cut and dry having a better season than Ashley Owusu (10) and they're on the same team. She should be ranked higher.

Mackenzie Jones (21) should be top 15 or arguably top 10. She's having a phenomenal season.

Nia Clouden (22) I'm okay with at 22. She's on a pretty bad team but is having a great individual season looking at numbers.

Horston (23) should be a little higher. She's been the clear standout for Tennessee who is ranked in the top 5 and lost their best player even though her efficiency is mediocre. I'd put her around 17-18 or so.

Engstler (25) should also be much higher. Louisville isn't a good offensive team but Engstler is the glue player for Louisville and is huge on both ends. Stats don't tell the story with her impact.

Burton/Reese should be on this list. Grace Berger too.

Taylor Robertson should be HM.



Overranked players:

Nalyssa Smith (2) should drop to the 5-10 range. No one has her in the POY conversation with Baylor being so underwhelming this year.

Clark (3) and Howard (4) should drop to at best 5-10 range. Both have good numbers but haven't led their teams to success. Clark especially, she's shot poorly in significant games and Iowa isn't ranked after being preseason top 10.

Jones should be 10-15 range. No one would pick her as a first or 2nd team AA at this point.

Austin at 11 is generous. I'd have her 15-20 range.

Zia Cooke doesn't belong on this list.

Charisma Osborne doesn't belong on this list.

I don't think Christyn Williams belongs on this list either. If you put a UCONN player on here, have it be Paige since she's been the clear standout in the majority of their games despite missing the last 4 with injury. Williams isn't showing herself to be a top 25 player so far this year.

 

[darkstar1]

The list is trash. Also, I love CW, but is she even the best Husky. Can argue 3 or 4 on her own team.

 

[BostonBay]

CD deserves to be on the list. There is no way there are 24 playing better than her right now!

 

[cancontent]

I feel like Veronica Burton is being undervalued. She should be in the mid-teens at least. While her team isn't making that much noise, they did beat Iowa, she's not surrounded by nearly the same talent as many others on this list and yet she's 3rd in Win Shares in the nation.

She's averaging 18pts, 5.6 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 4.1 steals, 1.1 blocks and 2 TO's a game. Northwestern is 10-4 and has lost some surprising games, she does it all for that team.

I agree. Heck, if she was in Clouden's spot on the list, I wouldn't have an issue. Clouden's numbers are great, but there's something about her playing style this season that doesn't seem the same as previous seasons.

 

[Sluconn Husky]

Zia Cooke doesn't belong on this list.

Has Cooke even been among SC's 4 best players? She's shooting 35% for the season, 28% from three, and has more turnovers than assists. I think this reeks of more of that UConn South Carolina bias at ESPN Muffet was alluding to.

 

[willtalk]

Just another example how name recognition trumps talent. I doubt the voters have even seen many of the players who should be listed play. Does anyone actually believe they spend any time watching film?

 

[MilfordHusky]

Has Cooke even been among SC's 4 best players? She's shooting 35% for the season, 28% from three, and has more turnovers than assists. I think this reeks of more of that UConn South Carolina bias at ESPN Muffet was alluding to.

Cooke's stats are disappointing. CW is shooting 44/31, which easily surpasses Cooke's 35/28. Actually, most of S.C.'s offensive stats are weak. I was very high on Saniya Rivers, but she's an abysmal 19/06/40.

 

[mbr33ct]

Created a spreadsheet of the ESPN's top 25 players. First image sorted per Rank/ESPN. Second Image sorted by position first and PPG second. For those that feel Christyn does not belong on this list, I'm ok with that as long as the bottom four players also come off this top 25 and replaced with others that supposedly are deserving of this honor.

 

[cancontent]

@mbr33ct Appreciate the work put in to provide another way to look at it.

I definitely see there could be a case to swap out the bottom four with others. Rickea Jackson is one who could possibly be considered, based on the stats I saw for her earlier this in thread.

I think Veronica Burton deserves consideration as well. She's averaging 18 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 6 APG and 4.1 steals per game.

 

[GoChips20]

I don’t think Christyn belongs on this list. I also agree that players with worse statistics (Cooke, Osborne) also don’t.

I think Boston and Smith are the clear 1-2. Since this is a midseason feature, I understand why Paige isn’t listed. I do think the writers did well to acknowledge her averages from the games she did play in. It’s no secret that she’d be top 3 were she healthy and playing.

I think Howard is too high. Lee should be higher. Kitley should arguably be in front of Cunane. Not sure how anyone would think that Angel Reese is not top 10.

I was glad to see Cubaj, Pointer, and Holmes included. All are deserving and should probably be a little higher than they are.

All in all, it’s not a bad list, but there are some notable exclusions (Veronica Burton, Aneesah Morrow). By the way, I’m not sure how you could pick anyone but Morrow for NFOY at this point. I don’t care what conference she’s in, DePaul is a borderline top-25 team and been unbelievable.

I’m a South Carolina fan and I think Boston is the undisputed NPOY right now, but I do think there’s merit to some of the claims of bias here on this board. Cooke’s shooting numbers are dreadful, but she makes this list off (presumable) name recognition.

Looking forward to the rest of the season!

 

[SCspur]

Say what you want about Zia shooting percentages but when the lights are the brightest she definitely steps up no question about that! She’s also had good numbers against most Elite competitors SC faced this year.

 

[bballnut90]

Say what you want about Zia shooting percentages but when the lights are the brightest she definitely steps up no question about that! She’s also had good numbers against most Elite competitors SC faced this year.

Shooting numbers this year
4-19 vs Mizzou this year
1-9 vs Stanford this year
3-17 vs Duke
5-13 vs Maryland

She did shoot well (over 40%) vs NC State, UCONN and LSU.

Last year she shot well in the tournament and had poor shooting numbers in every marquee regular season game (ex. UCONN, A&M, NC State, and Tennessee).

She can show up for big games but is very hit or miss.

 

[SCspur]

Shooting numbers this year
4-19 vs Mizzou this year
1-9 vs Stanford this year
3-17 vs Duke
5-13 vs Maryland

She did shoot well (over 40%) vs NC State, UCONN and LSU.

Last year she shot well in the tournament and had poor shooting numbers in every marquee regular season game (ex. UCONN, A&M, NC State, and Tennessee).

She can show up for big games but is very hit or miss.

My point still stand about her stepping up in big games regardless. 17 points @ NC State, 17 vs UConn, 20 vs Oregon, 20 vs Maryland (despite 5-13), 17 vs LSU, 19 vs Kentucky with games left against UConn, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Georgia. 3 of those games you point out were also without her PG. that definitely plays apart when you have to shoot more.

 

[bballnut90]

My point still stand about her stepping up in big games regardless. 17 points @ NC State, 17 vs UConn, 20 vs Oregon, 20 vs Maryland (despite 5-13), 17 vs LSU, 19 vs Kentucky with games left against UConn, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Georgia. 3 of those games you point out were also without her PG. that definitely plays apart when you have to shoot more.

She shows up in some of the big games and doesn't show up in others. Like I said, it's a mixed bag with her. She can elevate SC to being the clear cut #1 team when she's takes smart shots and hits for a good percentage, but on the flip side she can also hurt her team by taking too many shots, particularly when she's having a cold shooting day. It's the same story as it was last season.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

ALL these kids who are showing up during these crazy, unstable and even dangerous times...for our entertainment...are MVPS. AND I do mean...every one of them across all the sports and divisions. I see a game, sip on a beer, but before I can enjoy it...I tip my hat to them.

 

[SCspur]

She shows up in some of the big games and doesn't show up in others. Like I said, it's a mixed bag with her. She can elevate SC to being the clear cut #1 team when she's takes smart shots and hits for a good percentage, but on the flip side she can also hurt her team by taking too many shots, particularly when she's having a cold shooting day. It's the same story as it was last season.

Regardless I wouldn’t trade her many other guards. I guess the point you’re trying is that she doesn’t belong on the list right? You can harp on her percentages and misses but she rarely if ever takes a bad shot and if you watch her most of her shots are under control and within the offensive flow sometimes they just bounce off the rim. However when the lights are the brightest her stars shines and not much can be said the same for a lot of other guards on the list. I guess I’m not the only one who believes she rightfully deserve to be there unless she wouldn’t be on there at all.

 

[bballnut90]

Regardless I wouldn’t trade her many other guards. I guess the point you’re trying is that she doesn’t belong on the list right? You can harp on her percentages and misses but she rarely if ever takes a bad shot and if you watch her most of her shots are under control and within the offensive flow sometimes they just bounce off the rim. However when the lights are the brightest her stars shines and not much can be said the same for a lot of other guards on the list. I guess I’m not the only one who believes she rightfully deserve to be there unless she wouldn’t be on there at all.

The points I'm making are that:
1. She doesn't belong on the list
2. She doesn't always play her best in the biggest moments like you claim.

In regards to #1, she is averaging 12.4 points, 1.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 0.6 steals, and 2.2 turnovers while shooting 34.8% from the floor, 28.2% from 3, and 73.8% from the line. Not one of those statistics puts her as arguable for top 25 player material this season.

If she's on your top 25, I'd love to see a convincing argument for why she's more deserving to be on this list in 2021-22 than any single of the following 30 players (in no particular order):
1. Aliyah Boston, 2. Naz Hillmon, 3. Rhyne Howard, 4. Caitlin Clark, 5. Mackenzie Holmes, 6. Nia Clouden, 7. Ayoka Lee, 8. Ashley Joens, 9. Nalyssa Smith, 10. Destanni Henderson, 11. Madi Williams, 12. Taylor Robertson, 13. Khayla Pointer, 14. Elissa Cunane, 15. Angel Reese, 16. Ashley Owusu, 17. Cameron Brink, 18. Kierstan Bell, 19. Elizabeth Kitley, 20. Emily Engstler, 21. Lorela Cubaj, 22. Veronica Burton, 23. Cate Reese, 24. Aneesah Morrow, 25. Shaylee Gonzales, 26. Aijha Blackwell, 27. Aijha Blackwell, 28. Shakira Austin, 29. Jenna Staiti, 30. Que Morrison.


In regards to #2, this just isn't true. If you look at her numbers in big games from the last 2 years, here are the ones where she played well (ie. shot over 40% from the floor or scored a lot of points) vs the ones where she didn't play well (ie. shot under 40%, had more FGA than points, didn't score much at all). I didn't factor in other numbers like assists, rebounds, and steals, since they're consistently low in these games.

Over 40%/big impact
2021-22 vs. UCONN: 8/17 FG, 17 points (#1 vs #2 Game)
2021-22 vs. NC State: 6/13 FG, 17 points (#1 vs. #4 Game)
2021-22 vs. LSU: 7/15 FG, 17 points
2021-22 vs. Kentucky: 8/15 FG, 19 points
2021-22 vs. Maryland: 5/13 FG, 20 points
2020-21 vs. Stanford: 10/23 FG, 23 points (Final Four)
2020-21 vs. Texas: 7/15 FG, 16 points (Elite 8)
2020-21 vs. Georgia Tech: 6/13 FG, 17 points (Sweet 16)
2020-21 vs. Georgia: 7/16 FG, 16 points

Under 40%/little impact:
2021-22 vs. Stanford: 1/9 FG, 2 points (#1 vs. #2 Game)
2021-22 vs. Duke: 3/17 FG, 7 points
2020-21 vs. Georgia: 3/6 FG, 8 points (SEC Championship Game)
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 5/19 FG, 17 points (SEC Semifinals)
2020-21 vs. Texas A&M: 4/17 FG, 15 points (Game for SEC Regular Season Championship)
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 5/19 FG, 17 points
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 6/22 FG, 15 points
2020-21 vs. UCONN: 4/13 FG, 11 points (#1 vs. #2 game)
2020-21 vs. Kentucky: 2/12 FG, 7 points
2020-21 vs. NC State: 4/18 FG, 11 points

As you can see, it's very split. She had good shooting games in 9 of them, and mediocre games in 10. I didn't include the Oregon game like you did since Oregon isn't a top 25 team this year despite their initial high ranking to start the year. But if you decided to include them, it's still a 10-10 split.

I even highlighted the more significant (bright lights) matchups and it's still split 5-5 for showing up vs. not showing up. She had a string of good games in the NCAA tournament last year but aside from that she has been very hit or miss in games with bigger implications on the line.

 

[SCspur]

The points I'm making are that:
1. She doesn't belong on the list
2. She doesn't always play her best in the biggest moments like you claim.

In regards to #1, she is averaging 12.4 points, 1.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 0.6 steals, and 2.2 turnovers while shooting 34.8% from the floor, 28.2% from 3, and 73.8% from the line. Not one of those statistics puts her as arguable for top 25 player material this season.

If she's on your top 25, I'd love to see a convincing argument for why she's more deserving to be on this list in 2021-22 than any single of the following 30 players (in no particular order):
1. Aliyah Boston, 2. Naz Hillmon, 3. Rhyne Howard, 4. Caitlin Clark, 5. Mackenzie Holmes, 6. Nia Clouden, 7. Ayoka Lee, 8. Ashley Joens, 9. Nalyssa Smith, 10. Destanni Henderson, 11. Madi Williams, 12. Taylor Robertson, 13. Khayla Pointer, 14. Elissa Cunane, 15. Angel Reese, 16. Ashley Owusu, 17. Cameron Brink, 18. Kierstan Bell, 19. Elizabeth Kitley, 20. Emily Engstler, 21. Lorela Cubaj, 22. Veronica Burton, 23. Cate Reese, 24. Aneesah Morrow, 25. Shaylee Gonzales, 26. Aijha Blackwell, 27. Aijha Blackwell, 28. Shakira Austin, 29. Jenna Staiti, 30. Que Morrison.


In regards to #2, this just isn't true. If you look at her numbers in big games from the last 2 years, here are the ones where she played well (ie. shot over 40% from the floor or scored a lot of points) vs the ones where she didn't play well (ie. shot under 40%, had more FGA than points, didn't score much at all). I didn't factor in other numbers like assists, rebounds, and steals, since they're consistently low in these games.

Over 40%/big impact
2021-22 vs. UCONN: 8/17 FG, 17 points (#1 vs #2 Game)
2021-22 vs. NC State: 6/13 FG, 17 points (#1 vs. #4 Game)
2021-22 vs. LSU: 7/15 FG, 17 points
2021-22 vs. Kentucky: 8/15 FG, 19 points
2021-22 vs. Maryland: 5/13 FG, 20 points
2020-21 vs. Stanford: 10/23 FG, 23 points (Final Four)
2020-21 vs. Texas: 7/15 FG, 16 points (Elite 8)
2020-21 vs. Georgia Tech: 6/13 FG, 17 points (Sweet 16)
2020-21 vs. Georgia: 7/16 FG, 16 points

Under 40%/little impact:
2021-22 vs. Stanford: 1/9 FG, 2 points (#1 vs. #2 Game)
2021-22 vs. Duke: 3/17 FG, 7 points
2020-21 vs. Georgia: 3/6 FG, 8 points (SEC Championship Game)
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 5/19 FG, 17 points (SEC Semifinals)
2020-21 vs. Texas A&M: 4/17 FG, 15 points (Game for SEC Regular Season Championship)
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 5/19 FG, 17 points
2020-21 vs. Tennessee: 6/22 FG, 15 points
2020-21 vs. UCONN: 4/13 FG, 11 points (#1 vs. #2 game)
2020-21 vs. Kentucky: 2/12 FG, 7 points
2020-21 vs. NC State: 4/18 FG, 11 points

As you can see, it's very split. She had good shooting games in 9 of them, and mediocre games in 10. I didn't include the Oregon game like you did since Oregon isn't a top 25 team this year despite their initial high ranking to start the year. But if you decided to include them, it's still a 10-10 split.

I even highlighted the more significant (bright lights) matchups and it's still split 5-5 for showing up vs. not showing up. She had a string of good games in the NCAA tournament last year but aside from that she has been very hit or miss in games with bigger implications on the line.

If she didn’t belong I doubt she would be here. This is a mid season list and subject to change no need to write a dissertation thinking I would read it lol cause clearly my viewpoint ain’t changing. Most of those players you have in your top 30 don’t play near the amount of top teams SC plays. They also play different roles for their individual teams. You seriously think SC would be #1 without Cooke? Not to mention being guarded by other teams best defenders and being at the top of the scouting report. Obviously I’m not the only one who feels this way or she wouldn’t be on the wooden Midseason list or Finalist for Drysdale award last year. There’s still time for her to be removed or move up the list.

 

[FormerCTrez]

Cooke's stats are disappointing. CW is shooting 44/31, which easily surpasses Cooke's 35/28. Actually, most of S.C.'s offensive stats are weak. I was very high on Saniya Rivers, but she's an abysmal 19/06/40.

I am a UCONN fan, but......... isn’t Saniya Rivers a freshman?
And I love CW!

 

[darkstar1]

If she didn’t belong I doubt she would be here. This is a mid season list and subject to change no need to write a dissertation thinking I would read it lol cause clearly my viewpoint ain’t changing. Most of those players you have in your top 30 don’t play near the amount of top teams SC plays. They also play different roles for their individual teams. You seriously think SC would be #1 without Cooke? Not to mention being guarded by other teams best defenders and being at the top of the scouting report. Obviously I’m not the only one who feels this way or she wouldn’t be on the wooden Midseason list or Finalist for Drysdale award last year. There’s still time for her to be removed or move up the list.

Her inclusion just reflects how meaningless this list is. I honestly think SC would be a more dangerous team with Nika instead, even if she never scored more than 10 pts. Not saying Nika should be on the list, but her value to the team’s success.

 

[SCspur]

Her inclusion just reflects how meaningless this list is. I honestly think SC would be a more dangerous team with Nika instead, even if she never scored more than 10 pts. Not saying Nika should be on the list, but her value to the team’s success.

honestly don’t think Muhl wouldn’t get much time at SC. Dawn has two PG’s (although Raven is injured) and Muhl isn’t a big time scorer. That’s Cooke’s value to her team. She can score and that’s what SC needs.