To AD Dave: The New Big East Is Not the Old Big East | Page 2 | The Boneyard

To AD Dave: The New Big East Is Not the Old Big East

Here’s the thing. The top teams of the old big East over its last 15-20 years are no longer there. Villanova being the lone exception. Now we see bottom feeders who compete for league championships and teams that were in lesser leagues filling in for them. Pretend it’s the old big East if you want. It isn’t.
Which bottom feeders are competing for championships? Name those teams so we can figure out what the heck you are talking about!

The Big East is as true to its roots as any conference. The fans don’t love the new ACC. It’s farther from its history than the Big East.
 
Which bottom feeders are competing for championships? Name those teams so we can figure out what the heck you are talking about!

The Big East is as true to its roots as any conference. The fans don’t love the new ACC. It’s farther from its history than the Big East.
Seton Hall, Providence, even St Johns made the tourney. They had all become bottom feeders in the real Big East. De Paul continues to stink though.
 
Seton Hall, Providence, even St Johns made the tourney. They had all become bottom feeders in the real Big East. De Paul continues to stink though.
Yes, but which bottom feeders competed for league championships? That’s your assertion.
 
Those teams were non-competitive when the Big East had UConn, Cincinnati Syracuse Pitt West Virginia Louisville. Last year Seton Hall tied for first in the regular season, PC was 4th. 18-19 Seton Hall was 3rd in rs. 2018 Seton Hall was 3rd PC 4th. So yeah teams that were bottom dwellers are now league “powers”. It’s a joke but a very predictable joke. I said if I were a PC or Seton Hall fan I would be thrilled to see the power programs leave the Big East. Now they have a chance to compete. Wouldn’t be shocked to see UConn have great success in the Least. Not likely in the NCAA tournament because generally only really good teams make deep runs. High mid majors seldom do.

one side note is Villanova. They are actually what I had hoped UConn would become. Seem to following the Gonzaga model of a national program in a mid- major conference. They do have the advantage that the Zags don’t in that the Big East gets more publicity than the Zag’s league.

overall the Big East’s consideration as a power conference is more legacy than performance , though. It is kind of like the mediocre student who gets into Penn when the admissions dean realizes the new wing on some building was paid for by his maternal grandparents.
 
Well, quantitative measures would say it’s a top 3 conference.

So your list is Seton Hall, which really was more mid tier historically and not a bottom feeder. As a BE member they did make the finals.

Your other example of a current championship contender is Prov because they finished 4th. I wouldn’t call Prov a historic bottom feeder, or a recent championship contender. So that is weak for your list.

Now, for recent bottom feeders that were former Big East contenders we could talk about UConn, Pitt, and BC.

The Big East has Nova, Georgetown, St Johns, Seton Hall, Prov, and UConn. That’s a pretty classic core of the conference.

WV, Ville, and Cincy were short term tenants.

Pitt was a contender but never went to a FF as a conference member. Prov and Seton Hall did.

Cuse is a nice foil. I’d like them in the Big East, but I’ll pass on the other former members. UConn rejoining is great for the conference. I’ll pass on the rest.
 
Pitt was a contender but never went to a FF as a conference member. Prov and Seton Hall did.
I had totally forgotten about PC in 1987.
 
.-.
Well, quantitative measures would say it’s a top 3 conference.

So your list is Seton Hall, which really was more mid tier historically and not a bottom feeder. As a BE member they did make the finals.

Your other example of a current championship contender is Prov because they finished 4th. I wouldn’t call Prov a historic bottom feeder, or a recent championship contender. So that is weak for your list.

Now, for recent bottom feeders that were former Big East contenders we could talk about UConn, Pitt, and BC.

The Big East has Nova, Georgetown, St Johns, Seton Hall, Prov, and UConn. That’s a pretty classic core of the conference.

WV, Ville, and Cincy were short term tenants.

Pitt was a contender but never went to a FF as a conference member. Prov and Seton Hall did.

Cuse is a nice foil. I’d like them in the Big East, but I’ll pass on the other former members. UConn rejoining is great for the conference. I’ll pass on the rest.
It is a solid 6th ranked league. My point is teams that had no prayer of winning, zero are suddenly back in contention. Providence made the Tourney in 2004 then had a 10 year drought that just happened to end shortly after UConn, Syracuse West Virginia Louisville et al finally exited. Same with the Hall. 2006 was there last visit for a decade. The Johnnies? They did manage a bid in 2011. after only 9 years. Returned to futility until 2015 again after the real teams had left.

Of the programs you listed, only Villanova and UConn remain relevant. The others are about as relevant as Loyola or LaSalle, both of which have as many titles as Georgetown and more than the other Seton Hall, St Johns, and Providence combined. And most likely more than those 3 will have going forward. Let’s face facts. The Big East in its prime was UConn-Syracuse or Pitt-West Virginia or I concede Villanova-UConn. Now it’s Creighton- DePaul and Xavier-Butler. To quote Justice Thomas, whoopdee damn doo
 
It is a solid 6th ranked league. My point is teams that had no prayer of winning, zero are suddenly back in contention. Providence made the Tourney in 2004 then had a 10 year drought that just happened to end shortly after UConn, Syracuse West Virginia Louisville et al finally exited. Same with the Hall. 2006 was there last visit for a decade. The Johnnies? They did manage a bid in 2011. after only 9 years. Returned to futility until 2015 again after the real teams had left.

Of the programs you listed, only Villanova and UConn remain relevant. The others are about as relevant as Loyola or LaSalle, both of which have as many titles as Georgetown and more than the other Seton Hall, St Johns, and Providence combined. And most likely more than those 3 will have going forward. Let’s face facts. The Big East in its prime was UConn-Syracuse or Pitt-West Virginia or I concede Villanova-UConn. Now it’s Creighton- DePaul and Xavier-Butler. To quote Justice Thomas, whoopdee damn doo
Not so fast. You talk shit on your conference mates but you declare only Nova and UConn remain relevant? I’m all for UConn coming home, but you have something to prove. The AAC is a worse conference and you were the bottom feeders. Sweep providence and seton hall this year before you declare what kind of dogs they are.

georgetown has had some down seasons but you completely dismiss their prominence in the conference. I’m not sure if you just don’t know any better or not.
 
Those teams were non-competitive when the Big East had UConn, Cincinnati Syracuse Pitt West Virginia Louisville. Last year Seton Hall tied for first in the regular season, PC was 4th. 18-19 Seton Hall was 3rd in rs. 2018 Seton Hall was 3rd PC 4th. So yeah teams that were bottom dwellers are now league “powers”. It’s a joke but a very predictable joke. I said if I were a PC or Seton Hall fan I would be thrilled to see the power programs leave the Big East. Now they have a chance to compete. Wouldn’t be shocked to see UConn have great success in the Least. Not likely in the NCAA tournament because generally only really good teams make deep runs. High mid majors seldom do.

one side note is Villanova. They are actually what I had hoped UConn would become. Seem to following the Gonzaga model of a national program in a mid- major conference. They do have the advantage that the Zags don’t in that the Big East gets more publicity than the Zag’s league.

overall the Big East’s consideration as a power conference is more legacy than performance , though. It is kind of like the mediocre student who gets into Penn when the admissions dean realizes the new wing on some building was paid for by his maternal grandparents.

Pitt Syracuse, Miami. Need I go on. I’ll give you West Virginia
 
It's getting a little out of hand. I think what was meant that when the Big East went down to 10 teams in the early part of the last decade, teams, especially PC and Seton Hall became more competitive both in the regular season and BE Tournament.
 
It's getting a little out of hand. I think what was meant that when the Big East went down to 10 teams in the early part of the last decade, teams, especially PC and Seton Hall became more competitive both in the regular season and BE Tournament.
I ran the last 14 years rankings of NCAA RPI. Here is how the rankings compare for the last 7 years of nBE vs the previous 7 years of oBE.

Last 7 Years Rank of Conference
1 Big 12
2 Big East
3 ACC
4 Big Ten
5 PAC 12
6 SEC
7 American

Previous 7 Years Rank of Conference
1 (tie) ACC
1 (tie) Big Ten
3 Big East
4 Big 12
5 SEC
6 PAC 12
7 Mountain West

I don't have the full data set to do the same crunch on Sagarin, but here is last year's rank:
1 BIG TEN
2 BIG EAST
3 BIG 12
4 ATLANTIC COAST
5 SOUTHEASTERN
6 PAC-12
7 AMER. ATHLETIC
8 WEST COAST
9 ATLANTIC 10
10 MOUNTAIN WEST
 
It is a solid 6th ranked league. My point is teams that had no prayer of winning, zero are suddenly back in contention. Providence made the Tourney in 2004 then had a 10 year drought that just happened to end shortly after UConn, Syracuse West Virginia Louisville et al finally exited. Same with the Hall. 2006 was there last visit for a decade. The Johnnies? They did manage a bid in 2011. after only 9 years. Returned to futility until 2015 again after the real teams had left.

Of the programs you listed, only Villanova and UConn remain relevant. The others are about as relevant as Loyola or LaSalle, both of which have as many titles as Georgetown and more than the other Seton Hall, St Johns, and Providence combined. And most likely more than those 3 will have going forward. Let’s face facts. The Big East in its prime was UConn-Syracuse or Pitt-West Virginia or I concede Villanova-UConn. Now it’s Creighton- DePaul and Xavier-Butler. To quote Justice Thomas, whoopdee damn doo
Who cares. The conference as a whole has done very well - far better than you and me and others thought it would. And oh by the way, they pocketed 2 more national championships while we were gone.
You're going to get over the fact that Cuse and Pitt are playing in a southern league because of $$$. I'm sure their fanbases quietly wish they were home like we are now.
Sit back and enjoy what's to come.
 
.-.
I ran the last 14 years rankings of NCAA RPI.
Interesting choice of metric. I ran the last 25 years of national champions, here's what I found:

1602769925601.png
 
I ran the last 14 years rankings of NCAA RPI. Here is how the rankings compare for the last 7 years of nBE vs the previous 7 years of oBE.

Last 7 Years Rank of Conference
1 Big 12
2 Big East
3 ACC
4 Big Ten
5 PAC 12
6 SEC
7 American

Previous 7 Years Rank of Conference
1 (tie) ACC
1 (tie) Big Ten
3 Big East
4 Big 12
5 SEC
6 PAC 12
7 Mountain West

I don't have the full data set to do the same crunch on Sagarin, but here is last year's rank:
1 BIG TEN
2 BIG EAST
3 BIG 12
4 ATLANTIC COAST
5 SOUTHEASTERN
6 PAC-12
7 AMER. ATHLETIC
8 WEST COAST
9 ATLANTIC 10
10 MOUNTAIN WEST
These are foolish Look at post season performance. That is where you find out where the real measurement comes and the Big East consistently falls short of the power conferences. As I said Villanova is the exception as Gonzaga East. The League is a first weekend wonder. It gets 5-6 bids and high seeds and by the Sweet 16 you look and Villanova is there. Everyone else is watching from home. If the Cats aren’t that good or get upset like in 2017(?) then everyone watches from home. You look at the real power leagues and they have 2,3,4 in the Sweet 16, 2-3 in the Elite 8. Often multiple Final Four teams. Look at Final 4s. Since 2014 the ACC has had teams in every final 4 but 1. 4 different teams. Big 10, Big 12 SEC have all had multiple teams. The Big East is a legacy league or since you are a Villanova guy Who might not know what that means, it is a league of Indianas. Indiana hasn’t been important since the 70s but everybody pretends they are still there. And now that the SEC seems to be taking hoops seriously at more than just Kentucky it will get worse.
 
These are foolish Look at post season performance. That is where you find out where the real measurement comes and the Big East consistently falls short of the power conferences. As I said Villanova is the exception as Gonzaga East. The League is a first weekend wonder. It gets 5-6 bids and high seeds and by the Sweet 16 you look and Villanova is there. Everyone else is watching from home. If the Cats aren’t that good or get upset like in 2017(?) then everyone watches from home. You look at the real power leagues and they have 2,3,4 in the Sweet 16, 2-3 in the Elite 8. Often multiple Final Four teams. Look at Final 4s. Since 2014 the ACC has had teams in every final 4 but 1. 4 different teams. Big 10, Big 12 SEC have all had multiple teams. The Big East is a legacy league or since you are a Villanova guy Who might not know what that means, it is a league of Indianas. Indiana hasn’t been important since the 70s but everybody pretends they are still there. And now that the SEC seems to be taking hoops seriously at more than just Kentucky it will get worse.
Here are some stats.

All-time NCAA Tournament record while a member of the Big East:

UConn 48-15, 0.762
Villanova 42-24, 0.662
Georgetown 45-25, 0.643
Xavier 7-5, 0.583
Butler 5-4, 0.556
Seton Hall 16-13, 0.552
Marquette 9-10, 0.474
St. John's 17-19, 0.472
Providence 8-12, 0.400
Creighton 1-3, 0.250
DePaul 0-0, 0.000

Overall: 198-130, 0.604

I would say that is a pretty good conference record.

As for the last six years (no 2020 tournament), the BE is 32-30 in the NCAA Tournament, which is a downtick, but still respectable.

Teams in the Sweet 16 since 2014 total of 8:

Villanova 3x, Butler 2x, Xavier 2x, Georgetown.

Final 8 since 2014 total of 4:

Villanova 2x, Xavier 2x.

Final Four since 2014 total of 2:

Villanova 2x

The 2020 AP men's basketball poll listed:

7 Creighton
10 Villanova
15 Seton Hall
23 Butler
26 Providence

Based on those rankings, the BE would have been favored in at least 5 games and the BE may have had 7 bids.

Add in UConn and the current recruiting for the UConn and the BE and the outlook for the BE is favorable.
 
"Now we see bottom feeders who compete for league championships". Well, no, your assertion that the Hall was a bottom feeder isn't really true, and you can't reasonably stretch to a second example. Teams that have left the Big East have not fared so well in comparison to the continuing Big East.

"It is a solid 6th ranked league." Well, not by any quantitative measures. Top-to-bottom I've given you the rankings since before the Big East rebirth. The Big East is a Top 3 conference top-to-bottom.

"These are foolish Look at post season performance." OK, that's a look at the top end of each conference. In the 6 tournaments since the split, the Big East has 2 titles and the ACC has 3 titles. So the Big East is a Top 2 Conference. If you want to count Final Fours the Big East is a top 5 conference.

You'd really have to stretch to create a case that the Big East is not a top 5 conference, either top-to-bottom or even just top end.

I'm pulling for UConn to rise from the ashes but don't be fooled into thinking you would have been competitive in the Big East over the past 5 seasons. The JC days are over. That was then and this is now. I look forward to watching your match-ups against teams you consider bottom dwellers. It would be like playing BC or Pitt and thinking you were going to get the Big East versions you remember. The tilt of the table changes over time. The Big East is strong.
 
This pining for the OBE has as much relevance as pining for the old Metro Conference.
 
Not pining for the old Big East. But it isn’t 1986 anymore. This league is fine but it is as far from the OBE as the A10 is. Pretending Creighton, Xavier and Butler are replacements for Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville is just nuts. Pretending a league where Providence and Seton Hall are national Powers is laughable. The league has exactly 1 power at this point. The rest are replaceable. With luck we become the second.
 
.-.
Not pining for the old Big East. But it isn’t 1986 anymore. This league is fine but it is as far from the OBE as the A10 is. Pretending Creighton, Xavier and Butler are replacements for Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville is just nuts. Pretending a league where Providence and Seton Hall are national Powers is laughable. The league has exactly 1 power at this point. The rest are replaceable. With luck we become the second.
They're not, but the emphasises of the conference and the history schools have had in athletics cannot hurt going forward. The Big East did start as nothing in 1979.

The geographical set up of the conference can be advantageous for recruiting in the Bos-Wash megalopolis.
 
Pretending Creighton, Xavier and Butler are replacements for Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville is just nuts.
Pitt sucks! They fell into a deeper trench than UConn and their recovery is less likely. They also never went to a final four as a Big East member and certainly not after, so there is little glory to grasp even in their history. (You were all about Final Fours and Championships, right?)

Butler, Creighton and X are all better programs than Pitt.

Louisville was only in the conf for 8 years. Just a short term tenant. Surely our conference glory doesn’t rest with Ville. They are a low academic program that is most famous for the multiple historically overt violations in their program.
 
Once we were shutout from the ACC our options were limited. Joining the Big East (old BE, new BE.....doesn't matter) will, in time, be viewed as a great move. Football will survive as an independent, with scheduling flexibility, drivable road trips for fans, and opportunities for profitable "buy" games. Basketball (M&W) will garner huge dividends from increased national TV exposure and regional rivalries. Only baseball's league competition will be diminished by comparison to the AAC, but the fabulous new facility will enhance the prospect of bringing in high-level non-league opponents.
 
Spidey sense is saying there is hate coming from various conference member boards. Never once went to any of the aac boatds except Cincy on occasion. At least there is a return of some passion. Hopefully this move will enhance all.
 
.-.
I think we will do quite well in the new Big East. It isn’t anywhere near as tough as the original Big East. Providence is is now considered a top team. Enough said.
 
One other point about the Big East is it’s tv coverage, or rather non-coverage. The 2018 and 2019 league title games were worse than all the P5 leagues by a lot. About half the Big 12 for example. But also worse than the Mountain West, Atlantic 10 and, wait for it, American Athletic Conference. I think more people were at the game than watched on tv. For all the chest thumping it has been pretty much a dud in terms of ratings. Absolutely zero national cache which is another reason why it is not a power conference at the same level as the true P5s.
 
One other point about the Big East is it’s tv coverage, or rather non-coverage. The 2018 and 2019 league title games were worse than all the P5 leagues by a lot. About half the Big 12 for example. But also worse than the Mountain West, Atlantic 10 and, wait for it, American Athletic Conference. I think more people were at the game than watched on tv. For all the chest thumping it has been pretty much a dud in terms of ratings. Absolutely zero national cache which is another reason why it is not a power conference at the same level as the true P5s.
ESPN has more viewers for anything.

The positive of being in upstart Fox and FS1 is their commitment to broadcast every game nationally on TV. No streaming.
 
I think we will do quite well in the new Big East. It isn’t anywhere near as tough as the original Big East. Providence is is now considered a top team. Enough said.
Problem is Providence has more history in the postseason than a good percentage of AAC schools. Having a public blue blood school like UConn with a rabid national following should change the profile of the conference a bit.
 
ESPN has more viewers for anything.

The positive of being in upstart Fox and FS1 is their commitment to broadcast every game nationally on TV. No streaming.
LOL. Every game on a network nobody watches. Heck, there have been some regular season games where there were more people at the local Hugh school game than watching “the #2 or 3 conference in the country.” Nothing says national presence like having lower viewership than the A10. All parties are hoping that the addition of UConn brings some desperately need interest.

as I’ve said, this will indeed help return UConn to so level of national prominence. Since as the legacy league you don’t have to be that good to get NCAA bids, we should be back in the post season pretty regularly regardless of how good we are. And at least we.have a shot at getting to the round of 32 like a top Big East team.
 
LOL. Every game on a network nobody watches. Heck, there have been some regular season games where there were more people at the local Hugh school game than watching “the #2 or 3 conference in the country.” Nothing says national presence like having lower viewership than the A10. All parties are hoping that the addition of UConn brings some desperately need interest.

as I’ve said, this will indeed help return UConn to so level of national prominence. Since as the legacy league you don’t have to be that good to get NCAA bids, we should be back in the post season pretty regularly regardless of how good we are. And at least we.have a shot at getting to the round of 32 like a top Big East team.
By your logic you should have had even better chances being in the AAC.

Embrace the move! Enjoy the access to every conference game. If you succeed you will naturally earn more games on network Fox.

As a fan you have a lot to worry about. The Big East being a top conference shouldn't be on that list.
 
.-.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,357
Messages
4,567,063
Members
10,469
Latest member
xxBlueChips


Top Bottom