Three Arguments for GOAT

[nwhoopfan]

I've never understood how you can even try to compare a guard to a front court/post player in terms of "who is better?" They have such different roles and contribute to a team in completely different ways.

There is no magic formula for these kinds of discussions. It all comes down to opinion, no matter how many stats you try to invoke.

D, Maya, Stewie...all 3 were undoubtedly great and helped lead UConn to dominance during their careers.

 

[UcMiami]

Yeah, I do. That was sophomore Bird/Cash/Swin though. Not the upper class version. The only one of those players who truly was a factor in that FF game was Bird. They missed their senior leaders.

Actually, those players were all juniors in 2001 (they won as sophomores in 2000 and again as seniors in 2002. (I am really sort of jerking your chain. I love DT and for her career she is the current GOAT. At Uconn it is very debatable - Breanna was brilliant at the FF all four years, DT ... has that one big blemish. And the NCs are only part of the issue - Maya is firmly in the discussion too.

 

[intlzncster]

Actually, those players were all juniors in 2001 (they won as sophomores in 2000 and again as seniors in 2002. (I am really sort of jerking your chain. I love DT and for her career she is the current GOAT. At UConn it is very debatable - Breanna was brilliant at the FF all four years, DT ... has that one big blemish. And the NCs are only part of the issue - Maya is firmly in the discussion too.

In my excitement, I became an idiot. haha And I don't remotely mind being challenged at all. Everybody's got their opinion.

I know where I am in the scope of things RE DT, Maya, BS. In college, I would personally put them 1, 3, 2 in respective order. I do think people look nostalgically back on those 2003/2004 teams, as having players better than they were. That was a collection of nice role players.

Remember, BS was playing side by side all 4 years with arguably the best PG in UCONN history (alongside Sue B). The last two years, DT played with Maria Conlon. Who, while a good kid with a bit of moxie, and a solid role player with a nice 3pt shot, was not remotely an All Conference type player, never mind consensus 1st team AA.

I mean, in 2003, UCONN lost 4 of the starting five, including 3 of the best ever, and DT still dragged those guys to a Championship. That is just unreal to me.

 

[CL82]

I set up a poll here: UConn GOAT Poll

The criteria is limited to play at UConn only. I'm curious to see to the results.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Wally East- - -Saying D is the greatest winner in history and then ignoring when she didn't win AND when other players win more is a bit inconsistent, don't you think?

The difference IMO is that if Shea & Svet were healthy for the 2001 FF the semi's would have been completely different because when UCONN after Geno's tirade, started to blow their 15 pt. 1/2 lead Their AA leadership would have calmed the team down and DT wouldn't have had to shoot 15 times, making one! Geno could have benched DT and gone with Shea, Svet, Sue, Ashja, Tamika, or Swin to keep the pressure on ND! ND didn't win that game, UCONN lost it because of the injuries! They stripped them of their heart & soul!
And yes ND beat UCONN earlier in the season WITH Svet & Shea, but GENO/UCONN are different animals during the season and in the FF, especially the Final Game!

 

[meyers7]

It is also interesting that the three (and adding Charles the four) all play fundamentally different positions - DT at combo guard, Moore at wing and Stewart at forward (with Charles at power forward/center.) I would add in a fifth in Sue at PG (Moriah may challenge over time.) With the fifth player it would make for a devastating starting five.

I agree, DT, Stewart, Moore, Charles are easily in the starting 5. Bird or Jefferson is tough. College/Post College, definitely Bird. But just UCONN, it's tight. Granted Bird didn't have 4 full years because of her injury her Freshman year.

But UCONN career assist record, and 2nd on Steals list for Jefferson. Bird had a little bit better 3 pt % while Jefferson had a better FG %. Bird with better FT%. Bird a better Scoring avg (11.7 to 9.9). Bird with 1 NPOY, 1 AA and 3 NLC awards, 2 NCs. Jefferson with 2 NLC awards, 3 AA's and 4 NC's.

Tough choice.

 

[UcMiami]

I agree, DT, Stewart, Moore, Charles are easily in the starting 5. Bird or Jefferson is tough. College/Post College, definitely Bird. But just UConn, it's tight. Granted Bird didn't have 4 full years because of her injury her Freshman year.

But UConn career assist record, and 2nd on Steals list for Jefferson. Bird had a little bit better 3 pt % while Jefferson had a better FG %. Bird with better FT%. Bird a better Scoring avg (11.7 to 9.9). Bird with 1 NPOY, 1 AA and 3 NLC awards, 2 NCs. Jefferson with 2 NLC awards, 3 AA's and 4 NC's.

Tough choice.

The interesting thing with Bird losing that freshman year is that freshman year stats are typically the worst year in a player's four year career. No doubt in my mind that Sue would own the assist record had she gotten her full four years, but I suspect her shooting percentages and A/TO would have suffered had she played as a freshman more than she did.
What tips the balance for me is Moriah's efficiency - A/TO and overall scoring efficiency (points per shot taken) is significantly better than Sue's and her defensive prowess was superior as well. Sue's intangibles may have been better - her leadership and ability to control flow and pacing, but those are qualities that especially when looking at players in different decades are difficult to assess.

Intlzncster (what is that moniker anyway?!) - that 2003 championship and the 70 game streak that they completed was pretty special, the repeat in 2004 more expected. In many ways 2003 paralleled this past season with young players outperforming all expectations. But Moore, Battle, Conlon, and Morgan Valley were all academic juniors and the core leadership on that team welcoming in a pretty special freshman class that included a #1 ranked player in Strother and the closest we have come to a reincarnation of Jamelle in Turner. While Moore and Battle never starred in the WNBA they both had nice and fairly long WNBA careers so they were not chopped liver. Maria was a really good college player as well and her performances in the NCAAs was pretty special for a too slow, too short player. And Crockett remains one of my favorite players ever - the tool in the tool box that only ever worked when it was really needed, but when it was, it was brilliantly and just what was needed. If you want to point to the single most important play, her rebound of a DT foul shot miss is probably it. Just as Moore playing on a torn ACL in the second half was also essential.

 

[intlzncster]

I set up a poll here: UConn GOAT Poll
The criteria is limited to play at UConn only. I'm curious to see to the results.

Without looking, I'm guessing Maya. People on here often default GOAT discussions to a personality contest with these things. A lot of people don't 'love' DT because of her 'tude. Which is exactly the thing I like about her.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Since longevity is part of the criteria, the designation should be GOAT - to date. That might reduce the angst some feel and give their favorites hope for the future.

I would guess by definition: G.O.A.T is time dependent --and without a turban or Xtal Balls -you are limited to today and a bit.

In the discussions of GOAT's ---to speak of role players and even lessor successful UCONN players is a bit disconcerting to me--If every player was a DT--Maria or Turner or Molly or 240 other kids that played their hearts out at Uconn--would never have been recruited--
Many of those "secondary ' Terrible term--players gave me hours and years of thrills and pleasure just watching them develop. In every game that Maria was in or Ann was in with DT----DT was not my only focus--same is true of The BT EXpress --Barbara Turner--or Willnet and way too many forgotten kids.. No they are not YOUR GOATS---so don't make them my goats.
(not pointed at you Best----)

 

[BroadwayVa]

The interesting thing with Bird losing that freshman year is that freshman year stats are typically the worst year in a player's four year career. No doubt in my mind that Sue would own the assist record had she gotten her full four years, but I suspect her shooting percentages and A/TO would have suffered had she played as a freshman more than she did.
What tips the balance for me is Moriah's efficiency - A/TO and overall scoring efficiency (points per shot taken) is significantly better than Sue's and her defensive prowess was superior as well. Sue's intangibles may have been better - her leadership and ability to control flow and pacing, but those are qualities that especially when looking at players in different decades are difficult to assess.

Intlzncster (what is that moniker anyway?!) - that 2003 championship and the 70 game streak that they completed was pretty special, the repeat in 2004 more expected. In many ways 2003 paralleled this past season with young players outperforming all expectations. But Moore, Battle, Conlon, and Morgan Valley were all academic juniors and the core leadership on that team welcoming in a pretty special freshman class that included a #1 ranked player in Strother and the closest we have come to a reincarnation of Jamelle in Turner. While Moore and Battle never starred in the WNBA they both had nice and fairly long WNBA careers so they were not chopped liver. Maria was a really good college player as well and her performances in the NCAAs was pretty special for a too slow, too short player. And Crockett remains one of my favorite players ever - the tool in the tool box that only ever worked when it was really needed, but when it was, it was brilliantly and just what was needed. If you want to point to the single most important play, her rebound of a DT foul shot miss is probably it. Just as Moore playing on a torn ACL in the second half was also essential.

Two < hopefully short comments- first thanks for pointing out BT, Ann, Battle, Jessica Moore, Valley's , Battle---how they made Uconn better-and their roles---BT in her last game at Uconn nearly did the impossible--I wonder how many remember it?? Willnet started that game in great fashion.
Sue vs Moriah---There to me will never be a Player like Sue Bird--she ran off with half of my heart--and did things --I saw few boys basketball teams do. But to me there is no denying that Moriah was an all around better guard (it hurts to say taht)

 

[BroadwayVa]

Add Asjha, Tamika, Sue, Swin to freshman Maya or freshman Breanna and do you really think they would lose?

As I have posted before - the 2003 and 2004 teams were actually full of talent including upper class talent - what people all remember about that 2003 class was that it couldn't win in 2005 or 2006, but that was more the result of the coaches failing on the recruiting front in 2004 and 2005 than of their skills.

Geno went thru a recruiting drought---and the media beat him up for NOT getting the top players he went for---we now hear the proper wording to phase what happened--UCONN ISN'T FOR EVERYONE. It happens even to the best.
I've wondered since then --was Geno snake bitten by media comments---is that why he has a share of bench sitter who didn't live up to the billing???