Thoughts on Big East title game

[Edward Sargent]

For all the talk about how St John’s has all these guys who can create off the dribble, they’re not known for running good half court offense. St. John’s relies heavily on scoring in transition off turnovers and their rebounding. And they play very physical defense. That’s what they killed UConn with last night.

No they don’t run half court offense but we do and last night they had 13 assists to our 11. We didn’t run any half court offense either and we don’t have good iso

 

[Edward Sargent]

Highlights from the tourney. You’ll see him put it on the floor several times to create space for 3’s. Side steps off the dribble, and a few pull ups off the dribble. Im not saying he’s Kyrie for f’s sake, be he could create space to get his shot off when needed. Solo cannot do that. Braylon can against weaker defenders. Hawkins didn’t become completely useless if he had a tough on ball
Defender. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I do wish Braylon took more side steps with his shot he’s resorted to flinging it off balance especially last night

 

[jibsey]

And the Rx for opposing teams is to drive it down our throats, score or get to the line. Everyone does it but we have a finesse offense and a pretty good defense usually.

 

[ArizonaHsky]

Define “shine”. McNeeley has played 6 minutes on an NBA floor since January 6th.

Mullins is better than McNeeley.

 

[Deepster]

Mullins is better than McNeeley.

Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down. Your in depth analysis has my head spinning!

 

[freescooter]

My thought is we apparently dodged a bullet with Demary in a meaningless exhibition game. We were a 2 going in 2 going out. Johnnie’s were a 5 going in. 5 coming out. It meant nothing.

Oh and it absolutely was a home game for them. A couple of their players even talked about MSG as their home court. I know we can’t just skip it but in future years we should play our subs more. Get them game experience and avoid possible disasters with injuries.

 

[CTBasketball]

I’m going to dispute my charge on Capital One for services not rendered.

I bought tickets to a basketball game but saw a football game.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

My thought is we apparently dodged a bullet with Demary in a meaningless exhibition game. We were a 2 going in 2 going out. Johnnie’s were a 5 going in. 5 coming out. It meant nothing.

Oh and it absolutely was a home game for them. A couple of their players even talked about MSG as their home court. I know we can’t just skip it but in future years we should play our subs more. Get them game experience and avoid possible disasters with injuries.

While the outcome of the game did not have a whole lot of impact on our tournament fate (a win would have placed us 1 or 2 in the south with Florida. Houston would have been 2 in the east), I cannot agree with your comments.

For openers, if they're keeping score, I want the W. Some W's are more important than others, but still.

Additionally, if there are trophies involved, I want to be the team that holds it over their heads. They day we believe we should send out our subs in a tournament championship game so our starters will be rested for what comes next is the day we will need to clean house.

Finally, in what was clearly the worst version of the Big East in its nearly five decades of existence, that we couldn't win either the regular season or the conference tournament title needs to be viewed by everyone involved with the program (players, coaches, fans) as a failure on a massive level.

On to the next tournament.

 

[jibsey]

My thought is we apparently dodged a bullet with Demary in a meaningless exhibition game. We were a 2 going in 2 going out. Johnnie’s were a 5 going in. 5 coming out. It meant nothing.

Oh and it absolutely was a home game for them. A couple of their players even talked about MSG as their home court. I know we can’t just skip it but in future years we should play our subs more. Get them game experience and avoid possible disasters with injuries.

Still trying to wrap my mind around how they are a 5. Yes they blew their early season non conference but that was ages ago and they are different and and improved now.

 

[freescooter]

While the outcome of the game did not have a whole lot of impact on our tournament fate (a win would have placed us 1 or 2 in the south with Florida. Houston would have been 2 in the east), I cannot agree with your comments.

For openers, if they're keeping score, I want the W. Some W's are more important than others, but still.

Additionally, if there are trophies involved, I want to be the team that holds it over their heads. They day we believe we should send out our subs in a tournament championship game so our starters will be rested for what comes next is the day we will need to clean house.

Finally, in what was clearly the worst version of the Big East in its nearly five decades of existence, that we couldn't win either the regular season or the conference tournament title needs to be viewed by everyone involved with the program (players, coaches, fans) as a failure on a massive level.

On to the REAL tournament.

Fixed it for you. 😁

 

[freescooter]

Still trying to wrap my mind around how they are a 5. Yes they blew their early season non conference but that was ages ago and they are different and and improved now.

They were never going to be a 4. The NBE wasn’t good enough. Sure they won a bunch of games but you don’t get lots of credit for beating that group. And our losses to Marquette and Creighton, 2 really bad teams, plus their blowout loss to us 2 weeks ago , devalued the Tournament win. Just like were were all pumped up to avenge our losses to them they were all pumped up to do the same at thier house. Maybe they are great. Maybe we are. But it’s sort of like Gonzaga. Once league play started you can’t really tell. Did they just beat up on a bunch of glorified mid-majors? Did we just sort of lose interest after playing a tough NC schedule? After Kansas, Arizona, Gonzaga and the rest did we just never quite get as up for Seton Hall, Georgetown and DePaul and the rest? I don’t know.

 

[TroyHall98]

I don’t think the committee is very impressed with the way basketball is played in the big east. I think that has a lot to do with there being no impact on national tournament seeding from the outcome of the conference title game.

 

[jibsey]

They were never going to be a 4. The NBE wasn’t good enough. Sure they won a bunch of games but you don’t get lots of credit for beating that group. And our losses to Marquette and Creighton, 2 really bad teams, plus their blowout loss to us 2 weeks ago , devalued the Tournament win. Just like were were all pumped up to avenge our losses to them they were all pumped up to do the same at thier house. Maybe they are great. Maybe we are. But it’s sort of like Gonzaga. Once league play started you can’t really tell. Did they just beat up on a bunch of glorified mid-majors? Did we just sort of lose interest after playing a tough NC schedule? After Kansas, Arizona, Gonzaga and the rest did we just never quite get as up for Seton Hall, Georgetown and DePaul and the rest? I don’t know.

It’s funny because I watch these games pretty closely as do we all and it seems like we are putting great effort out there. There are quality players on our NBE opponent’s teams who go off from time to time. St. John’s has poached high end players who were best on their former teams like Hopkins and Sanon among others to go with Zuby. The NBE with just 3 teams has no leeway to get that much more respect in this tourney because only 1 can emerge from the east. The only way for it to happen is to have UConn or St. John’s win it all and say “ I told you so” which Hurley would certainly say.
That said we have flaws that have been exposed more than once.

 

[Stinger92860]

I don’t think the committee is very impressed with the way basketball is played in the big east. I think that has a lot to do with there being no impact on national tournament seeding from the outcome of the conference title game.

I’m not impressed either. Why is it that we perform so much better OOC?

 

[BFieldHusky]

St. John's best wins OOC were against a 16-16 Baylor team, and a 15-20 Ole Miss team. They lost to tournament teams Iowa St, Alabama, and Kentucky, while also losing to a 17-16 Auburn team. They also have a Q3 home loss to Providence which everyone seems to forget. I think the 5 line is right where they should be. Where did people think they would be?

UConn meanwhile beat a 1 seed, a 3 seed, and a 6 seed on neutral courts, and beat a 4 seed on the road. Even our home win against Texas looks good compared to anything they have OOC. HUGE difference.

 

[TroyHall98]

St. John's best wins OOC were against a 16-16 Baylor team, and a 15-20 Ole Miss team. They lost to tournament teams Iowa St, Alabama, and Kentucky, while also losing to a 17-16 Auburn team. They also have a Q3 home loss to Providence which everyone seems to forget. I think the 5 line is right where they should be. Where did people think they would be?

UConn meanwhile beat a 1 seed, a 3 seed, and a 6 seed on neutral courts, and beat a 4 seed on the road. Even our home win against Texas looks good compared to anything they have OOC. HUGE difference.

I was just surprised that whipping a top 6 team by 20 in a conference title game had absolutely no impact on their seeding. I would have thought they would be a 3 or 4 but maybe I overweight their defensive effort and whether it can translate to tighter officiating.

 

[uconnric]

We were outnumbered and I felt it everywhere. Not as many UConn fans on the train as usual. Legends had no line and had tables available and open all afternoon. SJU is back and they have reclaimed MSG, at least when we play each other.

I thought we outnumbered St. John's fans or at least it was 50-50. No way they outnumbered us. They were loud because most of us didn't have much to cheer about. We had more fans in the building.

 

[superjohn]

St. John's best wins OOC were against a 16-16 Baylor team, and a 15-20 Ole Miss team. They lost to tournament teams Iowa St, Alabama, and Kentucky, while also losing to a 17-16 Auburn team. They also have a Q3 home loss to Providence which everyone seems to forget. I think the 5 line is right where they should be. Where did people think they would be?

That's all true but how does a 7 loss Florida team get a 1 seed and a 6 loss St. John's team get a 5 seed?

Are Florida's 4 or 5 wins against SEC teams ranked in the teens that impressive?

 

[TouchdownHusky]

My thought is we apparently dodged a bullet with Demary in a meaningless exhibition game. We were a 2 going in 2 going out. Johnnie’s were a 5 going in. 5 coming out. It meant nothing.

What!?! It was for the Big East championship. What are you talking about?
I remember when that meant someyhing.

 

[BFieldHusky]

They highest they were getting was a 4. And the only team I think they have a slight argument to replace is Kansas, and they get a chance to play them.

Florida's

That's all true but how does a 7 loss Florida team get a 1 seed and a 6 loss St. John's team get a 5 seed?

Are Florida's 4 or 5 wins against SEC teams ranked in the teens that impressive?

Florida's 7 losses are to Arizona, UConn, TCU and Vandy on neutral courts, Duke and Missouri on the road. Their worst loss is to Auburn at home. That's 2 one seeds, a two seed, a 4 seed, a 8 seed, and a 10 seed.

St. John's 6 losses are to Alabama and Providence at home, Iowa St, Kentucky and Auburn on neutral courts, and at UConn. Losses to two 2 seeds, a 4 seed, and a 7 seed. Providence loss really hurt them.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

I think that’s what Brent musburger used to say about the rose bowl ha

Try Keith Jackson.

 

[PlayItLeo]

SJU was in the mid-'teens in mostly all the metrics which lines up with a 4 seed if you narrowly seeded based on that. It's pretty clear the deciding factor that bumped them to a 5 was their Win resume. Between Nebraska, Arkansas, Alabama, Kansas and Vanderbilt (the latter of whom is a 5-seed but ranked higher than them in aggregate) SJU had at least two fewer Q1 wins than those five and they were the only team with a Q3 loss. Two of their Q1A wins were against the same team (us), with one of them offsetting a blowout loss three weeks prior. Sucks the Big East didn't give them more opportunities for high-quality wins and they had to dodge landmines all year (mostly successfully), but that's the differentiator.

 

[Palatine]

Can’t tell me Mullins is NBA ready. 6-35 from three the last 5 games.

It doesn't matter.

After the first couple of picks, the NBA is not drafting for a guy to come in next year and be a major contributor. They are looking at where a player will be in two, three or four years from the draft. Mullins is not NBA ready. He is a very highly desirable draft pick with the upside that NBA teams are looking for.

 

[Palatine]

One more would do it for him with a lot of time on the weight room.

One more year a UConn would make him a better college player.

He could do the same in the NBA while learning the system of his NBA team and getting his toes wet in the league.

 

[ArizonaHsky]

Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down. Your in depth analysis has my head spinning!

Will revisit this in a couple years. Mullins is a way better shooter than McNeeley and can shoot off the dribble. He will be just as good as Tyler Herro in the league, watch!

 

[freescooter]

What!?! It was for the Big East championship. What are you talking about?
I remember when that meant someyhing.

That’s my point-exhibition game.

 

[Brandon Miles]

Will revisit this in a couple years. Mullins is a way better shooter than McNeeley and can shoot off the dribble. He will be just as good as Tyler Herro in the league, watch!

 

[Brandon Miles]

Dude, literally Hawkins’ NBA mock scouting report talked about his elite off the dribble shooting ability. He could create space with a bounce or two in addition to his catch and shoot ability. That’s creating offense for himself.

I never said Andre was a guy who could take people off the dribble and score. But he could, again, create space with the bounce and his athleticism. He literally averaged almost 7apg during the tourney. Thats elite playmaking from someone who is not your primary ball handler.

Again, this roster was constructed with a lack of playmakers both in terms of facilitating and creating their own offense. As great as our system is, we don’t have guys like Newton, Cam, etc. who can create offense. We are entirely system based which can be negated with strong defensive teams.

great point..n dont mention we can only can rotate 2 bigs

 

[Brandon Miles]

Dude, literally Hawkins’ NBA mock scouting report talked about his elite off the dribble shooting ability. He could create space with a bounce or two in addition to his catch and shoot ability. That’s creating offense for himself.

I never said Andre was a guy who could take people off the dribble and score. But he could, again, create space with the bounce and his athleticism. He literally averaged almost 7apg during the tourney. Thats elite playmaking from someone who is not your primary ball handler.

Again, this roster was constructed with a lack of playmakers both in terms of facilitating and creating their own offense. As great as our system is, we don’t have guys like Newton, Cam, etc. who can create offense. We are entirely system based which can be negated with strong defensive teams.

It's not difficult for me to understand, I agree with you in your original post that stated he can create off the dribble. I was just specifying when and how he did it. It is why I never agreed with posts last year saying Ball was ahead of Hawkins' sophomore year despite shooting 41% from 3. Just like you said, Ball doesn't have it in his bag to do what Hawk did. Hawk was such an explosive scorer and shooter that created KenPom kill shots. I think the BoneYard forgets or doesn't give credit for the impact Hawk had on that 2023 team.

good point, and we have caliber players like Hawk.

 

[Brandon Miles]

No one is going to say it but i will and that is Hurley was a fool to try to build a team around an unathletic, streaky shooter who is a mid at best defender. I dont want to hear it from anyone Dan Hurley for sure tried to build last year and this years team around AK and it showed. This team looked slow, out of sink offensively and a step slow on defense. Dan Hurley had to go out and recruit a stud or two not a bunch of role players. AK was suupposed to become the guy. He was not. Feel free to disagree but youre wrong.

agree, def needed two studs..gotta go back to getting athletic bigs too, at least 1.