This is Why He's Not Coaching | The Boneyard

This is Why He's Not Coaching

RockyMTblue2

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"But on the other end of the floor, if Baylor and South Carolina could successfully get the ball into the low post area, I just don't know how UConn defends that. UConn has done a good job of keeping it out of there and they've done it one-on-one, they've done it defending the high shoulder, and just keeping the ball from coming it. But if that ball ever gets in there, I just don't know how UConn defends that with the size and the bulk that I guess you could say they don't have down low."

It's sorta like if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

UConn Women's Insider: Experts Take An Early Look At The Bracket

Are we better at getting teams sucked up into our game than when we played them? I think so. But, the whistles and chance will always make it interesting.

PS. We have Natalie and you don't.
 
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I can't get an exact example to come to mind, but I always love when Geno would talk about some dumb thing an SEC coach said and that's why he never wins anything. It could always be traced back to Landers. I want to say one example was Landers telling Geno he couldn't figure out what Geno saw in Kelly Faris to make him want to recruit her.
 

RockyMTblue2

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I can't get an exact example to come to mind, but I always love when Geno would talk about some dumb thing an SEC coach said and that's why he never wins anything. It could always be traced back to Landers. I want to say one example was Landers telling Geno he couldn't figure out what Geno saw in Kelly Faris to make him want to recruit her.

It is frankly a mystery to me how the SEC formula of success has not evolved. There are an abundance of reasonably tall young women in the SEC territory who grow up learning how to get inside on smaller folk and laying in buckets. But, criminey, the whole basketball world is over that! eah, as long as most of the SEC is dumb enough to recruit that way you can recruit that way and live in your little fan bubble. But, when you want to examine how that has worked for the last decade or two against the rest of the NCAA world what do you see!
 

UcMiami

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It is frankly a mystery to me how the SEC formula of success has not evolved. There are an abundance of reasonably tall young women in the SEC territory who grow up learning how to get inside on smaller folk and laying in buckets. But, criminey, the whole basketball world is over that! eah, as long as most of the SEC is dumb enough to recruit that way you can recruit that way and live in your little fan bubble. But, when you want to examine how that has worked for the last decade or two against the rest of the NCAA world what do you see!
I think it started by trying to emulate Pat's formula for success, she was beating up on everyone and they all tried to copy what she was doing getting a stable of tall players, play hard man to man defense and rebound like crazy. TN generally was not a great shooting or passing team but they beat people up on the offensive boards and scored lots of put backs. That became the SEC style and not a lot of variety crept in until KY started their 40 minutes of dread. Pat succeeded because with few exceptions she out-recruited everybody else in the SEC and so had better talent.
Even now all these years later, it is still mostly a traditional post league with even the new coaches like Dawn basically running traditional offensives. Not sure what White will do at Vanderbilt yet, and LSU is a little different, but KY still stands out as an outsider in terms of style.
 

RockyMTblue2

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I think it started by trying to emulate Pat's formula for success, she was beating up on everyone and they all tried to copy what she was doing getting a stable of tall players, play hard man to man defense and rebound like crazy. TN generally was not a great shooting or passing team but they beat people up on the offensive boards and scored lots of put backs. That became the SEC style and not a lot of variety crept in until KY started their 40 minutes of dread. Pat succeeded because with few exceptions she out-recruited everybody else in the SEC and so had better talent.
Even now all these years later, it is still mostly a traditional post league with even the new coaches like Dawn basically running traditional offensives. Not sure what White will do at Vanderbilt yet, and LSU is a little different, but KY still stands out as an outsider in terms of style.

Agreed. But for God's sake SEC folks, open your minds and embrace modern basketball theory and reality! Being Neanderthals in basketball is not a good look. The "shine" of football excellence does not hide your lack of it.
 

msf22b

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Geno understands that there will be a bit of post scoring against our non-big, bigs; boards too.
But their problems guarding our quick non-big, bigs is yet more pronounced.
And Saniya is becoming a devil at the double-team.
No worries
Or at least; not much
 
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Rocky's got the right title for this thread. Landers seems like a really nice guy but his halftime commentary usually suggests that he's thinking about something besides the game. Rebecca is a good sport for going along with his inane analysis. And I just do not understand this:
"If you go to Stockton, you go out and you get acclimated to that time zone and you play," ESPN analyst and former Georgia coach Andy Landers said on the teleconference. "That's a challenge, but that's not as great a challenge as returning back and preparing for, let's say a Final Four when you advance to that point. ... The time zone presents a challenge."
There's nearly a week between the sectionals and the FF to readjust to the time zone, and Baylor is effectively the home team in any FF.
 

RockyMTblue2

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Rocky's got the right title for this thread. Landers seems like a really nice guy but his halftime commentary usually suggests that he's thinking about something besides the game. Rebecca is a good sport for going along with his inane analysis. And I just do not understand this:
"If you go to Stockton, you go out and you get acclimated to that time zone and you play," ESPN analyst and former Georgia coach Andy Landers said on the teleconference. "That's a challenge, but that's not as great a challenge as returning back and preparing for, let's say a Final Four when you advance to that point. ... The time zone presents a challenge."
There's nearly a week between the sectionals and the FF to readjust to the time zone, and Baylor is effectively the home team in any FF.

Yeah, well he says it with southern gravitas... and grits. And not instant grits!
 

DefenseBB

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Well after all he is UNEMPLOYED as a coach for a reason...
 

JordyG

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As UcMiami has said, it first started as a copycat of Summit's success. It is now a complete lack of imagination and/or unwillingness to think outside the box and admit that offenses have advanced. Teams tend to imitate success and not failure, especially within conferences. When I watch PAC 10 teams these days I see so many basing their offense off of the high post screen. Most teams in the SEC seem stuck in the 90's with their unimaginative double post or hi/lo offenses while unwavering from variations of 2/3 defenses. The problem is talent started to be more equally distributed around the country with an subsequent increase in the number of young ladies playing BB and a proportional increase in their skills. Now instead of UT or SEC teams playing lesser talented teams you have many talented, long armed young players everywhere packing the lane. But one note defenses aren't restricted to the SEC. Recently when Baylor was having an issue covering Martin in the conference final it took Mulkey forever to finally go to a 2/3 which helped contain Martin's drives and brought them back. The problem was her team had spent limited time practicing the 2/3 or the triangle and 2. Why is this? When plan A on offense or defense ain't working what's your plan B then, divine petitioning?

I remember recently Jen Rizzotti complaining to Geno that he doesn't teach enough defense. The reality is defense is far easier to teach than offense, and when you recruit for effort and energy you have 3/4 of the defensive teaching battle won. Teaching offense is difficult. Teaching offense on the level of Geno take years of study, experimentation and a creative mind. Then you have to know how to communicate that knowledge. One BY-er mentioned that when he attended one practice Geno spent 20 mins. discussing offensive options from one position, I believe it was from the elbow. Who else in WCBB can do that? Bruno maybe. Muffet maybe (maybe). When someone says, "Well in the (fill in the blank) conference they play tough defense I always say, "So what? When do they get to the tough part of teaching 18-22 year old's who believe they know everything there is to know about offense?" When someone that I consider has little in their past record showing they have a knowledge of offense's critique's someone who does, well, my turning eye quickly becomes jaundiced.
 

RockyMTblue2

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When plan A on offense or defense ain't working what's your plan B then, divine petitioning?

Yup. Mulkey, you may not want to be in this decade, but it is where you're at.
 

UcMiami

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As UcMiami has said, it first started as a copycat of Summit's success. It is now a complete lack of imagination and/or unwillingness to think outside the box and admit that offenses have advanced. Teams tend to imitate success and not failure, especially within conferences. When I watch PAC 10 teams these days I see so many basing their offense off of the high post screen. Most teams in the SEC seem stuck in the 90's with their unimaginative double post or hi/lo offenses while unwavering from variations of 2/3 defenses. The problem is talent started to be more equally distributed around the country with an subsequent increase in the number of young ladies playing BB and a proportional increase in their skills. Now instead of UT or SEC teams playing lesser talented teams you have many talented, long armed young players everywhere packing the lane. But one note defenses aren't restricted to the SEC. Recently when Baylor was having an issue covering Martin in the conference final it took Mulkey forever to finally go to a 2/3 which helped contain Martin's drives and brought them back. The problem was her team had spent limited time practicing the 2/3 or the triangle and 2. Why is this? When plan A on offense or defense ain't working what's your plan B then, divine petitioning?

I remember recently Jen Rizzotti complaining to Geno that he doesn't teach enough defense. The reality is defense is far easier to teach than offense, and when you recruit for effort and energy you have 3/4 of the defensive teaching battle won. Teaching offense is difficult. Teaching offense on the level of Geno take years of study, experimentation and a creative mind. Then you have to know how to communicate that knowledge. One BY-er mentioned that when he attended one practice Geno spent 20 mins. discussing offensive options from one position, I believe it was from the elbow. Who else in WCBB can do that? Bruno maybe. Muffet maybe (maybe). When someone says, "Well in the (fill in the blank) conference they play tough defense I always say, "So what? When do they get to the tough part of teaching 18-22 year old's who believe they know everything there is to know about offense?" When someone that I consider has little in their past record showing they have a knowledge of offense's critique's someone who does, well, my turning eye quickly becomes jaundiced.
Nice - but I will disagree on the ease with which defense can be taught - you can see a lot of teams that really have terrible team defense even if they have very good individual defenders. Like offense the basic skills are pretty simple to teach, but the advanced course in defense that Geno and CD teach takes a few years for their players to really master, and when they think they have there is always more to learn. And better coordination to achieve with their teammates.

Never heard that complaint from Jen, and I know there are times when Geno spends weeks on defense in practice - this week being one of them. Because defense is all reaction and not initiation, it can be even more challenging to master I think.
 

JordyG

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Nice - but I will disagree on the ease with which defense can be taught - you can see a lot of teams that really have terrible team defense even if they have very good individual defenders. Like offense the basic skills are pretty simple to teach, but the advanced course in defense that Geno and CD teach takes a few years for their players to really master, and when they think they have there is always more to learn. And better coordination to achieve with their teammates.

Never heard that complaint from Jen, and I know there are times when Geno spends weeks on defense in practice - this week being one of them. Because defense is all reaction and not initiation, it can be even more challenging to master I think.
From what I've learned, seen and heard defense is about desire, effort and a willingness to sacrifice. You gotta want it. As I've said when being taught offense and the 20 or 30 variations off a single positioning on or off the ball, that takes years to learn. Adding in as well that a good offensive player/team needs to learn how to read defenses then react, man, that's challenging. Now, I'm certainly not saying learning and teaching defense is easy. Basketball at its core is a simple game, but that don't make it easy. No, what I'm saying IMO of course, is that the nuances of offensive schemes in darn near any sport is harder and takes longer to learn. But yeah, learning sport, offense or defense, is about repetitions.
 
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Geno understands that there will be a bit of post scoring against our non-big, bigs; boards too.
But their problems guarding our quick non-big, bigs is yet more pronounced.
And Saniya is becoming a devil at the double-team.
No worries
Or at least; not much

good post.

you still play defense in the low post with your feet and play angles. quicker feet mean you can step around and intercept. you mustblock out against this bigger people by getting your butt into their thighs.

as you mentioned, bigger people would not only have trouble guarding, smaller quicker people, especially out on the floor, they also have to chase these faster people down court and on defense.
 

huskeynut

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Good ole Andy, an SEC guy through and through. He misses the point.

The game has changed. The days of the big in the low post, dump it down and let them score are done. There are too many tall, 6' 1" or better who are quicker, faster and more mobile that the big center. You also have "big girls" being able to step out and hit the 15' or better jumper. Remember Big Momma Steph.

And Geno has shown against Baylor, Maryland and South Carolina the big post can be negated to large degree. You deny the post entry pass. UConn does this very well. You get in the passing lanes and disrupt the opponents flow. Again, UConn does this very well. By denying the post entry pass you force the opponents guards to shoot which is not what these teams desire.
 
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Because defense is all reaction and not initiation, it can be even more challenging to master I think.

I normally agree with Miami's astute observations and commentary 99% of the time but must take exception about his defense reaction and initiation remark....while good defense certainly has the ability to read and react to opposing offenses, exceptional defenses dictate offensive flow through initiation be it pressing to speed up tempo, run time off the 30-second clock or fatigue slower or less-conditioned opponents, trapping, changing defenses, denying opponents their preferred spots, pushing guard play back a step or two further than they normally run their offenses....superior talent often allows teams to take a passive approach on defense and read and react to an opponents offense but the most effective defense occurs when initiation and anticipation rule the roost...I believe that this year's team provides a great example of just how effective, and at times suffocating and dominating, a defense can be when it decides to initiate action....what Geno does better than anyone is to recruit student-athletes who are intelligent enough to anticipate action, athletic enough to implement action, committed enough to execute action and communicate well enough to choreograph action....
 
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"But on the other end of the floor, if Baylor and South Carolina could successfully get the ball into the low post area, I just don't know how UConn defends that. UConn has done a good job of keeping it out of there and they've done it one-on-one, they've done it defending the high shoulder, and just keeping the ball from coming it. But if that ball ever gets in there, I just don't know how UConn defends that with the size and the bulk that I guess you could say they don't have down low."

It's sorta like if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

UConn Women's Insider: Experts Take An Early Look At The Bracket

Are we better at getting teams sucked up into our game than when we played them? I think so. But, the whistles and chance will always make it interesting.

PS. We have Natalie and you don't.

I think he's right. I have been mystified for a long time at South Carolina's either inability or disinterest in pushing the ball into the post. USC's post players take only a small percentage of total shots, when they should be taking the majority. Will they succeed against UConn in getting the ball down low? Not sure. UConn has a genius of a coach who has prevented other teams' taking advantage of his small front line for 32 games.

But I think he's right in his observations.
 
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I rewatched the Uconn/ SC game yesterday, to try and more closely examine post play. The one thing that kept jumping out at me was: neither Wilson nor Coates were " ever " able to guard Phees or Gabby ! EVER ! Dawn kept switching back and forth . It didn't matter . So, I ask only one question. Who can hold uconn to 32% shooting , and still score 65- 70 points?
 
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I rewatched the Uconn/ SC game yesterday, to try and more closely examine post play. The one thing that kept jumping out at me was: neither Wilson nor Coates were " ever " able to guard Phees or Gabby ! EVER ! Dawn kept switching back and forth . It didn't matter . So, I ask only one question. Who can hold uconn to 32% shooting , and still score 65- 70 points?
Tulane?
 

RockyMTblue2

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I think he's right. I have been mystified for a long time at South Carolina's either inability or disinterest in pushing the ball into the post. USC's post players take only a small percentage of total shots, when they should be taking the majority. Will they succeed against UConn in getting the ball down low? Not sure. UConn has a genius of a coach who has prevented other teams' taking advantage of his small front line for 32 games.

But I think he's right in his observations.

Dawn has said she is trying to broaden the effectiveness of her guards' offense, but she wants more points in the paint and has said the guards have not done a good enough job to open up the middle and get her posts more opportunities.
 

UcMiami

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I normally agree with Miami's astute observations and commentary 99% of the time but must take exception about his defense reaction and initiation remark....while good defense certainly has the ability to read and react to opposing offenses, exceptional defenses dictate offensive flow through initiation be it pressing to speed up tempo, run time off the 30-second clock or fatigue slower or less-conditioned opponents, trapping, changing defenses, denying opponents their preferred spots, pushing guard play back a step or two further than they normally run their offenses....superior talent often allows teams to take a passive approach on defense and read and react to an opponents offense but the most effective defense occurs when initiation and anticipation rule the roost...I believe that this year's team provides a great example of just how effective, and at times suffocating and dominating, a defense can be when it decides to initiate action....what Geno does better than anyone is to recruit student-athletes who are intelligent enough to anticipate action, athletic enough to implement action, committed enough to execute action and communicate well enough to choreograph action....
I think we are talking two different things - absolutely you can be aggressive on defense and manage to dictate pace, etc. but you are still being reactive to the offensive players and their movement and the ball movement - in full court pressure if an offensive player 'goes long' a defender needs to react to that, if the pass goes into a corner that may be the trigger for the double team, etc.

The issue I was trying to address, is the concept of hedge and recover, or switch on ever screen can sound pretty simple, but the mechanics and coordination and communication of the players involved are just as complex as the offensive moves that cause them, and good coaches can spend hours working with players on those defensive situations - and CD and Geno, Shea and Marisa do just that. And that is so much simpler than the coordination of help defense and the choreography involved in getting the five players rotating based on that help. That has little to do with effort or commitment and everything to do with coaching and basketball intelligence.

I think the reason people talk about defense being effort and commitment comes down to the individual reward motivation inherent in the human psyche - the offensive end of the court has all sorts of 'rewards' for individuals and a team, starting with points being added to the team and individual total, and assists, and offensive rebounds being recorded in the stat sheet. By the end of a 80 point output contest, the offensive players have shared maybe 110+ 'rewards' and the team as a whole has those rewards too. Players from a very early age get recognized for those 'reward points' and a lot of their 'value' on the court is determined by how many they individually get and how many the team as a whole gets. So it is easy for players to focus on that stuff and give effort and commitment at that end. (And size does not dictate who accumulates the most individually - everyone on a team has a pretty equal chance of accumulating those rewards.)

At the other end, on defense the reward points are a lot fewer for the team and the individuals - the stats record steals and blocked shots and defensive rebounds, and there just aren't as many of those to go around - teams probably average 4 or so blocks and maybe 10 steals, and maybe 30 defensive rebounds, and those are offset by the negative rewards of points scored against. So there aren't as many rewards, and the largest number of them get concentrated generally with the tallest players and only a few exceptional defenders get recognized and valued for their individual skill as a defender - Griner and Kiah for their blocks, Moriah for her steals, etc. The reward incentive that is part of our human make-up is pretty weak on that end of the court. So a lot of players who are not well coached figure they don't have to exert themselves at that end - no body talks to them the next day and says 'wow, your played your butt off on defense last night', the comments are instead either 'you were on fire last night' or 'are you feeling OK, you shot really poorly last night!'

So the cliché is that 'defense takes effort and commitment', when the reality is good offense and good defense both take effort and commitment, but coaches don't have to worry about the effort and commitment on offense because offense is incentivized already and very few players have an issue with giving effort and commitment at that end. But at the defensive end ...

And you see it in most commentary and discussion of basketball - you may get one monster block on a highlight reel, but every other play is an offensive move, even the steals are only shown as the start for a great offensive finish. People talk about MD and OSU and their offensive prowess, Deb A. raves about scoring and could care less that player _____ is giving up as many points on defense because she is a swinging gate at that end.

So that was long!!!:confused::rolleyes::)
 
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"But on the other end of the floor, if Baylor and South Carolina could successfully get the ball into the low post area, I just don't know how UConn defends that. UConn has done a good job of keeping it out of there and they've done it one-on-one, they've done it defending the high shoulder, and just keeping the ball from coming it. But if that ball ever gets in there, I just don't know how UConn defends that with the size and the bulk that I guess you could say they don't have down low."

It's sorta like if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

UConn Women's Insider: Experts Take An Early Look At The Bracket

Are we better at getting teams sucked up into our game than when we played them? I think so. But, the whistles and chance will always make it interesting.

PS. We have Natalie and you don't.


I like your Natalie comment!!! Landers is not all wrong. UConn playing against tall athletic post could have problems---Geno tries to prevent the ball going into the post--if is does---it does--the job is done before it gets there--Geno is playing the odds which are good for him---keeping the ball on the parameter. Landers knows that---but at this time of the year it is all about hyping games --for attendances
 

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