The Sad Tale of LV Basketball...for us!

[Bigpetunia]

I know that a lot of my fellow BY’ers harbor a true, visceral hatred for Tenn….I do not. I love great rivalries and all the trash talk and so-called “hatred” that go along with them. They wouldn’t be rivalries unless the outcomes were unpredictable and often very much in doubt... and, for that reason, nothing ever feels better than watching your team beat its most “hated” rival. Ergo, I miss Pat a lot…really!

To me, what has happened to the program at Tenn is no cause for schadenfreude on our part, but constitutes a real tragedy, both for them and for WCBB in general. Most troubling, and this issue must be acknowledged, is that the current turn of events serves as an object lesson in how depressingly easy it is for any program to go from the mountain-top to utter irrelevance. Right now, our favorite program is peerless, the very personification of undisputed excellence. But the reason for the joyride on which we’re now so privileged to be gallivanting will not, alas, be there forever. I hope that Geno’s eventual successor will prove to be much more competent than Holly, but that individual, whether chosen from within the program or not, simply will not, and cannot, be a clone of the master. And, as Louisiana Tech and Tennessee have amply demonstrated, tradition alone won’t get you very far for very long. Tenn whiffed completely on 2016 recruiting, and is now rapidly creating a hopeless outlook for 2017.

I grew up in SEC-land. There’s only one true religion, and one money-maker down there…it’s called football. A program like Pat’s can create enough distraction and excitement in football’s off-season to generate plenty of fan interest, but, as it becomes increasingly irrelevant…well, football remains, as it always will, life goes on, and fan interest in WBB will quickly devolve into indifference. This is terrible for WCBB. No matter how much we, in our little corner of the world, love it, it is, truth be told, looked upon as a yawner by most of the country’s sports fans. Sure, we rightly think those fans are unenlightened, but the reality remains the reality.

 

[Adesmar123]

By the way, I think UT will have a decent year this year. They are too talented not to have a good year. It won't be great year but for that program a disappointing year.

By the way, the fall of UT is not a tragedy. Columbine, Newtown and air accidents are tragedies.

 

[CL82]

The only constant is change, right? Tennessee had a long run at the top. In it's heyday that rivalry was a lot of fun. It's over. Notre Dame seems to have taken its place as our primary rival. WCBB as a whole seems to be adapting to UConn setting a new high water mark for talent, execution and commitment. In the future it will be very hard for a team to have the success that we have had. I view it as a positive for the sport.

When Geno leaves we will have to adjust. I doubt we will maintain our same dominance, although I'd be glad to wrong on that. That's why we need to enjoy every moment of our run at the top, particularly this season. It's pretty special.

 

[malevocalist#]

By the way, I think UT will have a decent year this year. They are too talented not to have a good year. It won't be great year but for that program a disappointing year.

By the way, the fall of UT is not a tragedy. Columbine, Newtown and air accidents are tragedies.

I agree. The season is not over yet. And there is still time to regroup and get it right and iron out the kinks.

 

[Txhoopsalot]

Oh, I don't know. It depends upon what definition of tragedy one is using. How about: "A drama [or literary work] in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances." (Free dictionary online.) I think that could fit. Then there are additional dramatic definitions that include the audience experience of pleasure or catharsis. It seems some on this board may experience the Tennessee drama in this way.

Edit: in response to comment earlier in thread on use of word tragedy to describe the decline of Lady Vol program.

 

[JavaMan]

By the way, the fall of UT is not a tragedy. Columbine, Newtown and air accidents are tragedies.

Relevance, please! I seriously doubt a parallel was intended.

 

[HoopsFan21]

If ND has taken Tennessee's place, I just wonder who takes our place when Geno retires in 5-6 years?

 

[VAMike23]

It really is sad, isn't it . . . .

Caught these LV fans having a moment recently. (Warning: it's pretty tough to watch!)



tee hee

 

[cohenzone]

Frankly, I always thought the hallmark of Pat Summitt's teams was not so much on-court discipline as it was on court tenacity and emotion that mirrored her personality, much like Jim Calhoun's teams. That history at UT, coupled with terrific talent, and with generally less well-coached and talented opposition, made them always a force. It's quite possible that, Holly, having been brought up in that system but without the same presence as Pat, just doesn't have the tools to organize the talent.

I don't know what will happen to UConn after Geno leaves, but if one of his assistants takes over, the reliance on his personality might not be quite as important simply because the schemes they use on both sides of the ball are so disciplined. I guess we'll find out someday. I don't think his methods can be duplicated very easily from someone outside the "family" or else we'd be seeing more of it. The trouble with teams that rely too much on emotion is that is can work against a team when things aren't going well. The talent level of many teams isn't so drastically lower than UT's now that they can get away with lack of on court discipline.

 

[CL82]

If ND has taken Tennessee's place, I just wonder who takes our place when Geno retires in 5-6 years?

I don't know the answer. I hope we can continue it, but I think it will be considerably harder to do due to increasing parity. Here the analogy to Wooden, which I often think is misplaced, is a good one. I don't think MCBB will see another run like UCLA's because of parity and larger tournament field.

 

[Orangutan]

While I am enjoying the heck out of the LVs' struggles (I got really sick of hearing about DeShields and Russell in the off-season), I think it is generally better for wcbb if Tennessee is strong. Just as it is better for college football if the storied programs like Alabama, Michigan, USC, and Notre Dame are strong.

However, I agree with CL82 that "the only constant is change". The LVs' downfall means an opportunity for other programs to create their legacy and build their fanbase by taking Tennessee's spot among the elite. Tennessee will lose fans, other teams will gain them. I think it's hardly a tragedy for wcbb.

Also, it is WAY too early to dance on Tennessee's grave. They still have something like 6 HS AAs and they are pretty young. They have too much talent not to figure it out at least somewhat. This may just be a one-season dip. They do need to get a good 2017 recruiting class, but if they do they can survive missing out in 2016.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I have been of the opinion from the start that Holly is very shallow in her suitability for head coach..... never has been able to coach a group, especially at the offensive end.... and everything seems to her to boil down to hustle and effort..... yes that is part of it, but man oh man.... cannot coach the x's and o's..... i would love to attend a practice to see exactly what she is working on..... Mercedes the #1 recruit in America.... and she is gliding, and out at the foul line not even under the basket.... Holly even asked out loud in her presser post game last night, why her team could not put forth the effort that McCall did..... and why her players didn't want to get in a defensive stance, and consequently get lit up for fouls..... it is just a hot mess there..... I would like to see WCBB elevate its trajectory, including Tennessee.... but they need a change of course

 

[UcMiami]

Bigpetunia - I would lament if TN were fading and nothing were replacing them, but the reality is TNs decline is being off-set by a number of other schools - in the SEC SC is better coached with good talent and good recruiting, and there are a number of other programs that are stepping into the void left by the decline at both TN and LSU. Elsewhere, ND clearly replaced TN 5 years ago, Baylor continues to be strong with as many titles in this millennium as TN, TX appears to be in revival mode, and the PAC looks to be a better league as well.

One of the comments made at the end of the TN/Uconn series was that it would be a good thing for WCBB because the rivalry had drained the air from the rest of the sport - there was TN/Uconn and everything else was irrelevant. I think that was a perceptive analysis, and the sport post rivalry has blossomed all over the country.

And the Uconn/ND rivalry has been more intense than any five year stretch between Uconn/TN. While the battle for the SEC between TN and SC has also been great.

 

[huskyd]

Instead of thinking about when Geno leaves, how about thinking like Geno thinks in the present. Enjoy the moment. It's a great time to be a UConn coach and a Husky fan, so savor it. I like to think about Bre and Moriah playing now. If I dwell too much on what will happen when these guys leave, it will mitigate the pleasure of the moment. As CL82 posits, change happens: look in the mirror--now live with it. And enjoy.

 

[Carnac]

I know that a lot of my fellow BY’ers harbor a true, visceral hatred for Tenn….I do not. I love great rivalries and all the trash talk and so-called “hatred” that go along with them. They wouldn’t be rivalries unless the outcomes were unpredictable and often very much in doubt... and, for that reason, nothing ever feels better than watching your team beat its most “hated” rival. Ergo, I miss Pat a lot…really!

To me, what has happened to the program at Tenn is no cause for schadenfreude on our part, but constitutes a real tragedy, both for them and for WCBB in general. Most troubling, and this issue must be acknowledged, is that the current turn of events serves as an object lesson in how depressingly easy it is for any program to go from the mountain-top to utter irrelevance. Right now, our favorite program is peerless, the very personification of undisputed excellence. But the reason for the joyride on which we’re now so privileged to be gallivanting will not, alas, be there forever. I hope that Geno’s eventual successor will prove to be much more competent than Holly, but that individual, whether chosen from within the program or not, simply will not, and cannot, be a clone of the master. And, as Louisiana Tech and Tennessee have amply demonstrated, tradition alone won’t get you very far for very long. Tenn whiffed completely on 2016 recruiting, and is now rapidly creating a hopeless outlook for 2017.

I grew up in SEC-land. There’s only one true religion, and one money-maker down there…it’s called football. A program like Pat’s can create enough distraction and excitement in football’s off-season to generate plenty of fan interest, but, as it becomes increasingly irrelevant…well, football remains, as it always will, life goes on, and fan interest in WBB will quickly devolve into indifference. This is terrible for WCBB. No matter how much we, in our little corner of the world, love it, it is, truth be told, looked upon as a yawner by most of the country’s sports fans. Sure, we rightly think those fans are unenlightened, but the reality remains the reality.

Thanks Big P, a very well written and objective observation. I completely agree with your post 100%. I humbly admit you sent me to my dictionary that I keep at arm's length. While I don't hate Tennessee, I do have an animus feeling for them. I don't like anything Notre Dame either. Not the players, just the coach and the school (including and especially their football program). Nothing would please me more than to see Notre Dame take a brief fall from grace. A slide similar to the one Tennessee is having now. I'm a UConn fan. I love and support the Huskies. I don't and won't embrace our rivals.

You're correct. Every program suffers a downturn at some point. UConn's day is coming. I agree with your observation about Geno's successor. Those will be impossible shoes to fill, because they will inevitably be compared to Geno. The critics will rise up quickly and in unison the first time UConn loses 2 or more games, or two games in a row. They'll want his or her head. UConn will no longer have the appeal that it does now. The playing field will be leveled in more ways than one.

 

[Ctpaul0825]

The biggest difference between UT and UCONN is that UCONN has a system which Geno created years ago and he recruits players that fit the system. Even after Geno moves on I believe the system will continue. UT/Pat hasd always recruited top talent and then created her game plans around that talent. It worked for years as she was able to recruit the most talented players year after year. Once Geno and UCONN came around that started to change. And now teams are recruiting top tiered players in an effort just to beat UCONN.

 

[Dillon77]

Thought-invoking piece...thanks!
There is a lot of talent in Knoxville, but will the individual talent mesh into an effective team? That might be a question to ask of all women's basketball. Louisville's Jeff Waltz recently commented that a lot of his players were more concerned about "offense first," which was a marked change from what the coach wanted.

So I think of a couple of things:
- Will the talent brought on campus be coachable? Want to improve? While no program is perfect (as we humans are not), UConn, ND do a fine job of getting players who seem to strive to improve themselves individually and collectively.

Several teams seem to be stockpiling talent as of late -- Texas, Baylor, Maryland. Can all this talent be meshed into a team? Or will they be units of odd-matching talents?

- Coaches can then shape, drive and perpetuate this process. Some can do this via sheer force of will..I liked the analogy of Pat Summitt and Coach Calhoun. Summit's team had a lot of talent and she seemed to always make sure the right person got the ball when needed, whether that was in a set system or not. She drove the team....
- UConn and ND both have long-standing coaches, staffs and systems in place. But they're not static in their approach, far from it...they adjust to their talent and situations (witness ND's recent necessary embrace of "small ball").
Can they continue when Geno and Muffit leave? Holly Warlick was a long-time assistant, but given Summit's true strength was--well--herself, it's hard to pass that on. UConn and ND might be able to replicate a lot of things, particularly since they appear to work so closely with the head coaches, but we'll see.
- And change. Will all kids want to go to established schools? Is there a new flavor of the year that is articulated at other places or coaches.

 

[Intpseeker]

The biggest difference between UT and UCONN is that UCONN has a system which Geno created years ago and he recruits players that fit the system. Even after Geno moves on I believe the system will continue. UT/Pat hasd always recruited top talent and then created her game plans around that talent. It worked for years as she was able to recruit the most talented players year after year. Once Geno and UCONN came around that started to change. And now teams are recruiting top tiered players in an effort just to beat UCONN.

Watching ut from '95 on, I was struck by how absent a systematic game plan was, other than go get the rebound. Amazing talent and determination, rather than a coherent approach to the game, seemed to carry the day very well, but there were times when we won, and I was waiting for an x's and o's moment from Pat that didn't come.

This current collection, can't say team, is as rudderless as any major program I have ever watched. 7 AA's and it easily is the worst exhibition of the game that I can remember. While ut can't lose enough, I feel embarrassed for them when I watch their team play.

They may have to watch, but I'm done. After watching 5 of their games, I cannot imagine them pulling it together.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I think that if you read the UTenn fan boards, you'll find that there is a lot more hatred for the team and coach than there is here. Any animus on UConn boards is almost entirely directed at UTenn fans. IMO deservedly because of their behavior leading up to and following the great NCAA violation fiasco

 

[CaliHuskyFan]

If ND has taken Tennessee's place, I just wonder who takes our place when Geno retires in 5-6 years?

Geno is 61 and Muffett just turned 60. ND will be in a similar situation when Muffett retires.
Although Niele Ivey is a strong recruiter and seems to have more "fire" and passion during games than Holly Warlick. Plus Niele she can coach offense, which is a glaring weak spot for the Vols. I hope that some other University hires Niele before Muffet retires, though.

 

[Dillon77]

Geno is 61 and Muffett just turned 60. ND will be in a similar situation when Muffett retires.
Although Niele Ivey is a strong recruiter and seems to have more "fire" and passion during games than Holly Warlick. Plus Niele she can coach offense, which is a glaring weak spot for the Vols. I hope that some other University hires Niele before Muffet retires, though.

Notre Dame vice president and director of athletics Jack Swarbrick signed McGraw to an extension in July 2012 that runs through the 2021-22 campaign. If Niele Ivey does take a HC position, I could see another former ND point guard, Megan Duffy, come back to the Irish. She's currently at Michigan, working with Kim Barnes Arico, (and had previously been at St. John's (with Barnes Arico), and George Washington (with former ND assistant and prior recruiting coordinator, Jonathan Tsipis)).

BTW, I could see Tsipis -- if GW continues to do well -- move to a major conference gig at some point. He's a UNC grad...l

 

[Sonny44]

If ND has taken Tennessee's place, I just wonder who takes our place when Geno retires in 5-6 years?

ND undoubtedly. They are the best at recruiting.

 

[topogigio]

After watching the Stanford - Tennessee game last night, it became painfully obvious that the Lady Vols are simply not a good team. They certainly have individual talent, but they simply can't/wont play as a cohesive unit. Their defense is virtually non-existent. Holly's appears to have lost the respect and command of the players. It is a sad situation for their fans.

 

[UcMiami]

It is an interesting question as to how the transition at various schools will be managed. Gary is 70, CViv is 67, Sylvia is 63, Tara is 62, Geno 61, Muffett 60, Holly 57 - Kim at 53 is a youngster. It will not be easy at any of these schools to replace the HC. And the transition is likely to be painful.

TN had the disadvantage of a completely unplanned and disorganized departure and they chose to 'stay the course' by shifting the chairs around on the current staff. OK for a hasty transition, but not a recipe for long term success given the people involved. They were all with the exception of Jolette steeped in Pat's 'system' which is pretty short on innovation. Jolette earned her chops under CViv for 12 years, a solid defensive innovator whose offense has remained a somewhat painful process. Without Pat's iron will and discipline, and without a Parker type player to overcome offensive deficiencies, it just doesn't work. And Holly, the faithful lieutenant was likely the worst choice of the group. She seems like a pleasant person, but seems also to be intent on preservation of Pat's 'system' and unable to innovate. I do not get the sense that any of them are a real student of the game of basketball, nor have been exposed to people who are.

What will be lost when most of the coaches above retire is the magical aspect of coaching they possess - the system can be taught by anyone, but that extra bit of insight into prospects and players alike that allows them to visualize something in the future, and the ability to work systematically to achieve that vision, teaching and tinkering, adjusting both the vision and the raw material over time.
Finding that next visionary is the job of every AD in the land, and not one that they are likely to succeed at.

FYI - I really like a couple of in house candidates for Uconn, but I really do not know if they have what it takes. I hope the search is wide when the time comes, and that whoever takes over makes the job and the program their own. I think the Uconn men's program was very lucky - Kevin was hand picked by Jim, but he is very definitely not the same kind of coach and the program is very different than what it was.

 

[Replicant]

I am guilty of schadenfreude and thoroughly enjoying the plight of Lady Vols Basketball!

I don't think there's any measurable harm done to the advancement of wcbb because of it. In fact, I don't think there's ever been more parity in the #2 thru #10 ranked teams these days. There's a lot of really entertaining games being played in wcbb by the likes of DePaul, South Florida, Oregon State, Florida State, Ohio State, Maryland, et al. I was even impressed by Kansas State, Nebraska and Chattanooga when we played them. Things are looking up for wcbb. Of course when looking up, everyone's necks still get cramped looking up at UConn!

That said, I have empathy for Holly (the individual) as I watch her pacing the sidelines bewildered and overwhelmed - demonstrating that she's reached her "level of incompetence" as HC of Lady Vols Bball. Not her fault - she was a loyal assistant to Pat and loyal employee to the University for decades, so she took the position to help preserve Pat's legacy and advance her own career - both honorable, sensible reasons. And the University went with her for the same reasons; continuity and loyalty. Time for Rocky Top to go in a different direction!