The proverbial "Hotseat" discussion

[DefenseBB]

In seeing the 103 points that Iowa put on OSU last night and the seeming underachievement of preseason expectations for this team, I got to thinking about when McGuff's contract ends and what will occur there. Jim Foster was let go in March 2013 due to a "lack of postseason success" and McGuff hired through the 2019-20 season. If you let Foster go, who had been to 11 NCAA Tournaments but did not fare well, don't you have to do the same thing here? It is highly unusual for any school to fire any Women's sport coach for a lack of success as no women's sports teams make money (1 notable exception is UConn due to the SNY contract) and the clamor by alumni or press doesn't necessitate it. Usually the contracts expire and the coach is let go.

So this got me thinking besides McGuff, who I don't think will be fired (and he shouldn't), what other programs are underachieving vs. expectations and does that constitute a coach being bought out.

Tennessee is the obvious 1st and foremost and is easily the most polarizing discussion out there. Holly has had very good records but just not elite like the Lady Vols were used to under Pat. She has still recruited very well so the teams have talent. She also has a loyal following from players and key athletic department personnel. Her coaching is suspect at best and her post game comments are downright poor. That said, she has one year left after this year and I don't see Fulmer doing anything until after next season as she has another top recruiting class coming in.

LSU made a huge effort to land Fargas from UCLA and that has not translated into Wins or team development. It could be argued this is the second highest profile school after Tenn in the SEC. They have now been surpassed by SC, MSU, Tex A&M and Georgia. I found conflicting salary amounts ($700k vs. $350k) which could be due to direct school pay vs. outside additional pay but I believe her contract is up next year as well and that is a lot of coin to pay for very light results.

Kentucky has been on a bad spiral down after being a brief darling for awhile. Dissension, transfers, no recruiting, graduation have left the cupboard bare. Mitchell's contract runs through next year when he will be paid $825K. I just can't see them keeping him given the track record. Too much money and effort for very poor return on investment .

Vanderbilt signed Stephanie White to a 6 yr contract and she is in year two. So far the results do not look good. She's paid north of $600K per year with bonus clauses worth up to total $800K. While she really only has 1 year of recruits in, there is time but I would have thought there would be some improvement bounce in year 2 and that has not happened-it looks more like a step back than forward. To me, this is not looking good but as I said there is more time...

North Caroline is no longer elite and if the cheating scandal didn't get Sylvia, then less that top performance won't either. She will be allowed to continue on until she deems it an end. Sad but understandable. As a non-fan of hers, I am fine with her lingering while the program languishes in the bottom half of the ACC.

Rutgers has had a bounce back for CVS and while I have never been a big fan of hers, I have always respected her and am happy to see them perform well. She too has been given a contract extension and will ride out the 1000 win effort until she too deems the journey over.

There are other schools that I gave thoughts to but am not sure of the banter-GW and Jen, Cincinnati and Jamele, Minnesota with their new hire in year 2 and if they have done enough to stay safe? I picked the notable few higher profile schools and their hires to discuss here and see the perception of my fellow BYers.

Most schools look at decent performance, high graduation rates, good character development and minimal headache (lack of headlines) when assessing these sports.

My goals here was not to generate rumors-just noting money vs. performance return. I hope I don't upset the mods but I am sure they will advise me if I have.

 

[oldude]

Good analysis. I would only add that Sylvia limped to 1000 wins this year, but UNC has fallen so much from their glory years that I think the administration in Chapel Hill might just nudge her into retirement or some elder-stateswoman, non-coaching role.

 

[iamcbs]

McGuff is gone at season's end!! His talent was slightly overrated but if you watch the way his teams play you see an undisciplined squad that lacks defensive tenacity and he makes no adjustments, the recent TTUN game is an example of his ineptitude. He hired Mark Mitchell to get get Kelsey and while she's had a stellar career, she's looked ordinary over the past 10 games. The Lady Bucks offensively are a bunch of one-on-one, shoot first-pass-second group. I went to the Schott a couple of year's ago to see the UConn game and the difference was stark and everyone in the arena saw it. McGuff is a snake-oil salesman, so he'll always be able to find a job but he set this program back years. BTW, Jim Foster wasn't much better. I'd like to see an up-and-coming new hire at tOSU, not another retread....

 

[BroadwayVa]

In seeing the 103 points that Iowa put on OSU last night and the seeming underachievement of preseason expectations for this team, I got to thinking about when McGuff's contract ends and what will occur there. Jim Foster was let go in March 2013 due to a "lack of postseason success" and McGuff hired through the 2019-20 season. If you let Foster go, who had been to 11 NCAA Tournaments but did not fare well, don't you have to do the same thing here? It is highly unusual for any school to fire any Women's sport coach for a lack of success as no women's sports teams make money (1 notable exception is UConn due to the SNY contract) and the clamor by alumni or press doesn't necessitate it. Usually the contracts expire and the coach is let go.

So this got me thinking besides McGuff, who I don't think will be fired (and he shouldn't), what other programs are underachieving vs. expectations and does that constitute a coach being bought out.

Tennessee is the obvious 1st and foremost and is easily the most polarizing discussion out there. Holly has had very good records but just not elite like the Lady Vols were used to under Pat. She has still recruited very well so the teams have talent. She also has a loyal following from players and key athletic department personnel. Her coaching is suspect at best and her post game comments are downright poor. That said, she has one year left after this year and I don't see Fulmer doing anything until after next season as she has another top recruiting class coming in.

LSU made a huge effort to land Fargas from UCLA and that has not translated into Wins or team development. It could be argued this is the second highest profile school after Tenn in the SEC. They have now been surpassed by SC, MSU, Tex A&M and Georgia. I found conflicting salary amounts ($700k vs. $350k) which could be due to direct school pay vs. outside additional pay but I believe her contract is up next year as well and that is a lot of coin to pay for very light results.

Kentucky has been on a bad spiral down after being a brief darling for awhile. Dissension, transfers, no recruiting, graduation have left the cupboard bare. Mitchell's contract runs through next year when he will be paid $825K. I just can't see them keeping him given the track record. Too much money and effort for very poor return on investment .

Vanderbilt signed Stephanie White to a 6 yr contract and she is in year two. So far the results do not look good. She's paid north of $600K per year with bonus clauses worth up to total $800K. While she really only has 1 year of recruits in, there is time but I would have thought there would be some improvement bounce in year 2 and that has not happened-it looks more like a step back than forward. To me, this is not looking good but as I said there is more time...

North Caroline is no longer elite and if the cheating scandal didn't get Sylvia, then less that top performance won't either. She will be allowed to continue on until she deems it an end. Sad but understandable. As a non-fan of hers, I am fine with her lingering while the program languishes in the bottom half of the ACC.

Rutgers has had a bounce back for CVS and while I have never been a big fan of hers, I have always respected her and am happy to see them perform well. She too has been given a contract extension and will ride out the 1000 win effort until she too deems the journey over.

There are other schools that I gave thoughts to but am not sure of the banter-GW and Jen, Cincinnati and Jamele, Minnesota with their new hire in year 2 and if they have done enough to stay safe? I picked the notable few higher profile schools and their hires to discuss here and see the perception of my fellow BYers.

Most schools look at decent performance, high graduation rates, good character development and minimal headache (lack of headlines) when assessing these sports.

My goals here was not to generate rumors-just noting money vs. performance return. I hope I don't upset the mods but I am sure they will advise me if I have.

Interesting hypothesis ---good prefacing--well thought out paragraphs---B plus. (I'm biased)

Tenn-Holly---No she isn't Pat, never was ,never will be--but neither would Pat if she didn't evolve.
Holly has had some significant successes (I'll let the experts define those). So as much as I think the Tn Program would thrive without Holly --her recent successes say no don't fire her.

Jen and GW--it takes a good coach 4 or five years to fully develop a program. She has had Geno's wealth of Contract knowledge and I'm sure that particular section is more than a page.
Cinci--Elliot/Jamele--I don't think Cinci is willing to dump the money into the program requires so for the foreseeable future I think she has a home. (I would suggest she find a better home)

Rutgers--I would suspect some RU fans believe CVW is the statue they built of her. She has had up and down years. She has recruited well from the NY market. I may be terribly wrong --I think C vivian won't go unless she chooses to go.

Nuff from an ignorant amateur .

 

[BroadwayVa]

Good analysis. I would only add that Sylvia limped to 1000 wins this year, but UNC has fallen so much from their glory years that I think the administration in Chapel Hill might just nudge her into retirement or some elder-stateswoman, non-coaching role.

As a really old duffer--you'd think I'd be on the side of the octogenarians but coaching require experience and energy. Sylvia, Holly, Foster (?) others of that age should take the big bucks and offer advice . CVivian is among those listed, but her value has not been used up. I'd like to see her retire on her own --say next year or 2 if she can continue to tap into the NY market and recruit. I don't dislike any of these ladies and each has made WBB better. As the old song says, they should sing : Wish me luck as you wave me good by, cheeri O, here I go on my way..

 

[BroadwayVa]

In seeing the 103 points that Iowa put on OSU last night and the seeming underachievement of preseason expectations for this team, I got to thinking about when McGuff's contract ends and what will occur there. Jim Foster was let go in March 2013 due to a "lack of postseason success" and McGuff hired through the 2019-20 season. If you let Foster go, who had been to 11 NCAA Tournaments but did not fare well, don't you have to do the same thing here? It is highly unusual for any school to fire any Women's sport coach for a lack of success as no women's sports teams make money (1 notable exception is UConn due to the SNY contract) and the clamor by alumni or press doesn't necessitate it. Usually the contracts expire and the coach is let go.

So this got me thinking besides McGuff, who I don't think will be fired (and he shouldn't), what other programs are underachieving vs. expectations and does that constitute a coach being bought out.

Tennessee is the obvious 1st and foremost and is easily the most polarizing discussion out there. Holly has had very good records but just not elite like the Lady Vols were used to under Pat. She has still recruited very well so the teams have talent. She also has a loyal following from players and key athletic department personnel. Her coaching is suspect at best and her post game comments are downright poor. That said, she has one year left after this year and I don't see Fulmer doing anything until after next season as she has another top recruiting class coming in.

LSU made a huge effort to land Fargas from UCLA and that has not translated into Wins or team development. It could be argued this is the second highest profile school after Tenn in the SEC. They have now been surpassed by SC, MSU, Tex A&M and Georgia. I found conflicting salary amounts ($700k vs. $350k) which could be due to direct school pay vs. outside additional pay but I believe her contract is up next year as well and that is a lot of coin to pay for very light results.

Kentucky has been on a bad spiral down after being a brief darling for awhile. Dissension, transfers, no recruiting, graduation have left the cupboard bare. Mitchell's contract runs through next year when he will be paid $825K. I just can't see them keeping him given the track record. Too much money and effort for very poor return on investment .

Vanderbilt signed Stephanie White to a 6 yr contract and she is in year two. So far the results do not look good. She's paid north of $600K per year with bonus clauses worth up to total $800K. While she really only has 1 year of recruits in, there is time but I would have thought there would be some improvement bounce in year 2 and that has not happened-it looks more like a step back than forward. To me, this is not looking good but as I said there is more time...

North Caroline is no longer elite and if the cheating scandal didn't get Sylvia, then less that top performance won't either. She will be allowed to continue on until she deems it an end. Sad but understandable. As a non-fan of hers, I am fine with her lingering while the program languishes in the bottom half of the ACC.

Rutgers has had a bounce back for CVS and while I have never been a big fan of hers, I have always respected her and am happy to see them perform well. She too has been given a contract extension and will ride out the 1000 win effort until she too deems the journey over.

There are other schools that I gave thoughts to but am not sure of the banter-GW and Jen, Cincinnati and Jamele, Minnesota with their new hire in year 2 and if they have done enough to stay safe? I picked the notable few higher profile schools and their hires to discuss here and see the perception of my fellow BYers.

Most schools look at decent performance, high graduation rates, good character development and minimal headache (lack of headlines) when assessing these sports.

My goals here was not to generate rumors-just noting money vs. performance return. I hope I don't upset the mods but I am sure they will advise me if I have.

 

[BroadwayVa]

In seeing the 103 points that Iowa put on OSU last night and the seeming underachievement of preseason expectations for this team, I got to thinking about when McGuff's contract ends and what will occur there. Jim Foster was let go in March 2013 due to a "lack of postseason success" and McGuff hired through the 2019-20 season. If you let Foster go, who had been to 11 NCAA Tournaments but did not fare well, don't you have to do the same thing here? It is highly unusual for any school to fire any Women's sport coach for a lack of success as no women's sports teams make money (1 notable exception is UConn due to the SNY contract) and the clamor by alumni or press doesn't necessitate it. Usually the contracts expire and the coach is let go.

So this got me thinking besides McGuff, who I don't think will be fired (and he shouldn't), what other programs are underachieving vs. expectations and does that constitute a coach being bought out.

Tennessee is the obvious 1st and foremost and is easily the most polarizing discussion out there. Holly has had very good records but just not elite like the Lady Vols were used to under Pat. She has still recruited very well so the teams have talent. She also has a loyal following from players and key athletic department personnel. Her coaching is suspect at best and her post game comments are downright poor. That said, she has one year left after this year and I don't see Fulmer doing anything until after next season as she has another top recruiting class coming in.

LSU made a huge effort to land Fargas from UCLA and that has not translated into Wins or team development. It could be argued this is the second highest profile school after Tenn in the SEC. They have now been surpassed by SC, MSU, Tex A&M and Georgia. I found conflicting salary amounts ($700k vs. $350k) which could be due to direct school pay vs. outside additional pay but I believe her contract is up next year as well and that is a lot of coin to pay for very light results.

Kentucky has been on a bad spiral down after being a brief darling for awhile. Dissension, transfers, no recruiting, graduation have left the cupboard bare. Mitchell's contract runs through next year when he will be paid $825K. I just can't see them keeping him given the track record. Too much money and effort for very poor return on investment .

Vanderbilt signed Stephanie White to a 6 yr contract and she is in year two. So far the results do not look good. She's paid north of $600K per year with bonus clauses worth up to total $800K. While she really only has 1 year of recruits in, there is time but I would have thought there would be some improvement bounce in year 2 and that has not happened-it looks more like a step back than forward. To me, this is not looking good but as I said there is more time...

North Caroline is no longer elite and if the cheating scandal didn't get Sylvia, then less that top performance won't either. She will be allowed to continue on until she deems it an end. Sad but understandable. As a non-fan of hers, I am fine with her lingering while the program languishes in the bottom half of the ACC.

Rutgers has had a bounce back for CVS and while I have never been a big fan of hers, I have always respected her and am happy to see them perform well. She too has been given a contract extension and will ride out the 1000 win effort until she too deems the journey over.

There are other schools that I gave thoughts to but am not sure of the banter-GW and Jen, Cincinnati and Jamele, Minnesota with their new hire in year 2 and if they have done enough to stay safe? I picked the notable few higher profile schools and their hires to discuss here and see the perception of my fellow BYers.

Most schools look at decent performance, high graduation rates, good character development and minimal headache (lack of headlines) when assessing these sports.

My goals here was not to generate rumors-just noting money vs. performance return. I hope I don't upset the mods but I am sure they will advise me if I have.

7

Read this posting again--and it's even better the second time. NICE!!

A couple of further comments and a follow up:
Follow up: If Pat Summit lived and continued with out evolving --she'd be Holly. The complete knock on Holly may need to include a legend's methods etc.

The Kentucky Coach--I thought may have been walking the plank a year or so ago. Apparently money (buy out) is more important than the Kentuck program.

The blue above: You have a higher opinion than I do of many programs. You like me and others tend to think all programs have the deep seated integrity and real care for the well being of those entrusted to the Coaches. As a born non believer, my belief is most programs, except a top few, (remember there are near 350 Div one) it is meeting a Federal dictated requirement and MONEY. I'm probably sadly mistaken but I doubt those high sounding attributes are warranted except for the truly top 10 percent.
Cynic me, Money. If you look around some good coaches with skills but can't break through with that program--MONEY to recruit, Money for facilities, Money for good assistants-Money.

 

[Frenchy]

In seeing the 103 points that Iowa put on OSU last night and the seeming underachievement of preseason expectations for this team, I got to thinking about when McGuff's contract ends and what will occur there. Jim Foster was let go in March 2013 due to a "lack of postseason success" and McGuff hired through the 2019-20 season. If you let Foster go, who had been to 11 NCAA Tournaments but did not fare well, don't you have to do the same thing here? It is highly unusual for any school to fire any Women's sport coach for a lack of success as no women's sports teams make money (1 notable exception is UConn due to the SNY contract) and the clamor by alumni or press doesn't necessitate it. Usually the contracts expire and the coach is let go.

So this got me thinking besides McGuff, who I don't think will be fired (and he shouldn't), what other programs are underachieving vs. expectations and does that constitute a coach being bought out.

Tennessee is the obvious 1st and foremost and is easily the most polarizing discussion out there. Holly has had very good records but just not elite like the Lady Vols were used to under Pat. She has still recruited very well so the teams have talent. She also has a loyal following from players and key athletic department personnel. Her coaching is suspect at best and her post game comments are downright poor. That said, she has one year left after this year and I don't see Fulmer doing anything until after next season as she has another top recruiting class coming in.

LSU made a huge effort to land Fargas from UCLA and that has not translated into Wins or team development. It could be argued this is the second highest profile school after Tenn in the SEC. They have now been surpassed by SC, MSU, Tex A&M and Georgia. I found conflicting salary amounts ($700k vs. $350k) which could be due to direct school pay vs. outside additional pay but I believe her contract is up next year as well and that is a lot of coin to pay for very light results.

Kentucky has been on a bad spiral down after being a brief darling for awhile. Dissension, transfers, no recruiting, graduation have left the cupboard bare. Mitchell's contract runs through next year when he will be paid $825K. I just can't see them keeping him given the track record. Too much money and effort for very poor return on investment .

Vanderbilt signed Stephanie White to a 6 yr contract and she is in year two. So far the results do not look good. She's paid north of $600K per year with bonus clauses worth up to total $800K. While she really only has 1 year of recruits in, there is time but I would have thought there would be some improvement bounce in year 2 and that has not happened-it looks more like a step back than forward. To me, this is not looking good but as I said there is more time...

North Caroline is no longer elite and if the cheating scandal didn't get Sylvia, then less that top performance won't either. She will be allowed to continue on until she deems it an end. Sad but understandable. As a non-fan of hers, I am fine with her lingering while the program languishes in the bottom half of the ACC.

Rutgers has had a bounce back for CVS and while I have never been a big fan of hers, I have always respected her and am happy to see them perform well. She too has been given a contract extension and will ride out the 1000 win effort until she too deems the journey over.

There are other schools that I gave thoughts to but am not sure of the banter-GW and Jen, Cincinnati and Jamele, Minnesota with their new hire in year 2 and if they have done enough to stay safe? I picked the notable few higher profile schools and their hires to discuss here and see the perception of my fellow BYers.

Most schools look at decent performance, high graduation rates, good character development and minimal headache (lack of headlines) when assessing these sports.

My goals here was not to generate rumors-just noting money vs. performance return. I hope I don't upset the mods but I am sure they will advise me if I have.

You are right on the money so to speak. It always bothers me to see the WBB sport suffer because most Universities do not care about the sport it is just an obligation to meet a government requirement. So coaches stay on for 40 + years regardless of their performance. You identified 3 of the most notorious low performers that should have left a long time ago. Until the universities treat this sport seriously it will not change and keep the sport to be overlook resulting in low attendance and $$$ revenue. Here we are very spoil with the Huskies.

 

[DefenseBB]

7

Read this posting again--and it's even better the second time. NICE!!

A couple of further comments and a follow up:
Follow up: If Pat Summit lived and continued with out evolving --she'd be Holly. The complete knock on Holly may need to include a legend's methods etc.

The Kentucky Coach--I thought may have been walking the plank a year or so ago. Apparently money (buy out) is more important than the Kentuck program.

The blue above: You have a higher opinion than I do of many programs. You like me and others tend to think all programs have the deep seated integrity and real care for the well being of those entrusted to the Coaches. As a born non believer, my belief is most programs, except a top few, (remember there are near 350 Div one) it is meeting a Federal dictated requirement and MONEY. I'm probably sadly mistaken but I doubt those high sounding attributes are warranted except for the truly top 10 percent.
Cynic me, Money. If you look around some good coaches with skills but can't break through with that program--MONEY to recruit, Money for facilities, Money for good assistants-Money.

Thank you for the kind words and yes, you are spot on that it takes money and the schools are really only putting out many women sports due to Title IX. That said, some schools are drastically overpaying coaches to underachieve. Stephanie White making $600-800k? Holly making $650k? Seriously? The programs do not generate revenue like football or men's basketball. Add in the salary of Carolyn Peck at Vandy and all the others on that staff and to be 1-6 in conference play??? Come on that's a waste of money.

I get you want the schools to put more money into recruiting, facilities etc. however, with the overly skewed salaries in this sport, how do you think the other non-revenue sports feel- soccer, swimming, volleyball, field hockey? They need those sports too to qualify for MCBB or CFB playoff money and most of those coaches have to have two jobs. Even Holly for all her moderate success should not be making that kind of money without a better resume. I just don't get it especially with University presidents making half that or less and they run an entire educational component. Holly can't even control 12 women...

 

[BroadwayVa]

Thank you for the kind words and yes, you are spot on that it takes money and the schools are really only putting out many women sports due to Title IX. That said, some schools are drastically overpaying coaches to underachieve. Stephanie White making $600-800k? Holly making $650k? Seriously? The programs do not generate revenue like football or men's basketball. Add in the salary of Carolyn Peck at Vandy and all the others on that staff and to be 1-6 in conference play??? Come on that's a waste of money.

I get you want the schools to put more money into recruiting, facilities etc. however, with the overly skewed salaries in this sport, how do you think the other non-revenue sports feel- soccer, swimming, volleyball, field hockey? They need those sports too to qualify for MCBB or CFB playoff money and most of those coaches have to have two jobs. Even Holly for all her moderate success should not be making that kind of money without a better resume. I just don't get it especially with University presidents making half that or less and they run an entire educational component. Holly can't even control 12 women...[/QUOTE

I absolutely agree--

AS Ive often said--I must believe in communistic fundamental--I can't begin to believe one top 20 coach is worth 8 million a year while another gets 200000. I feel the same of some CEO's.
I agree with all of this--and yes I was remiss in failing to think of the impact on other Women programs should money be diverted towards WBB and Men's programs (that's a given) I tend to be WBB oriented to the exclusion of all else. I'm a one note (no not nut) piano with UCWBB.
And too--many schools give little more than lip service to most women's programs. It's not that I want money in these WBB program--to be successful it takes money and great coaching.

The hard fact of life--no sport men or women will thrive unless they themselves become highly (HIGHLY) successful. To me a few Women's sports have a shot at achieving that at SOME schools.Uconn in many sports, men or women, survived because MONEY was paid in minimal amounts to coaches (Geno started at 18,500 or 30,000 depending what you read) I loved those teams. But to make a name on the National scene CAlhoun pulled out all the stops --whether with Geno or not- Gampel was built--and success followed--MONEY. That was then this is now--much much much more money is required.

 

[triaddukefan]

I imagine the UVA coach was on the hotseat..... and the non-conference start turned up the flames even hotter..... especially since the AD who hired her retired a few months ago. Currently they are 7-1 and in a 3 way tie for first with ND, and Louisville. However they still have to face FSU, Louisville twice , and ND.

 

[DefenseBB]

I imagine the UVA coach was on the hotseat..... and the non-conference start turned up the flames even hotter..... especially since the AD who hired her retired a few months ago. Currently they are 7-1 and in a 3 way tie for first with ND, and Louisville. However they still have to face FSU, Louisville twice , and ND.

Wow, you are right-she's 14-7 this year and in 6 prior seasons since Debbie Ryan retired, she's had only 2 20-win seasons and has never finished above 6th (1st year of her coaching with Ryan's recruits) and 9th or lower 4 other times and hasn't been to the NCAA tourney in 6 years- Yikes. She gets $700k in compensation per year and at the moment the contract is to expire at the end of this year. Not sure if an auto-renewal kicks in.

Unless she makes a great run through the ACC Tournament and into the 2nd Rd, it might be time to let her go. That could be a gem of a job for a southern girl to take over, know of any successful assistants with connections to UVA and a national prominent name? I am struggling to think of one...