The "old" Big East and its new accomplishments

[Plebe]

West Virginia, DePaul weren't members of the old big East.

I think "old Big East" is referring to membership prior to the big 2013 shuffle. West Virginia was Big East from 1995 to 2012. DePaul joined in 2005.

 

[triaddukefan]

I think "old Big East" is referring to membership prior to the big 2013 shuffle. West Virginia was Big East from 1995 to 2012. DePaul joined in 2005.

When I think old big East.. I think more along the lines of pre 1991... I think of Depaul.. Louisville... Et Al.. As old conference USA

 

[Plebe]

When I think old big East.. I think more along the lines of pre 1991... I think of Depaul.. Louisville... Et Al.. As old conference USA

There's "old" and then there's "really old."

 

[tomcat]

Nope. In the first season Louisville was in the AAC and got to the fourth round of the NCAA tournament. That year USF went to the NIT but the next two years they went to the NCAA tournaments and won their first round games, so there have always been two AAC teams up to this point (and hopefully three this year), and every year someone other than Connecticut has had a tourney win. They're small steps, but steps in the right direction.

In a more general sense, I don't know that the AAC will ever rise to the Big East, but in fairness that was by far the best basketball conference ever. Remember that in its final season, the Big East won the men's and women's tournaments, (Louisville and Connecticut) and the next year Old Big East teams won again (Connecticut x 2). And that in the final season of the OBE three of the final four teams were Big East, and that the last four National Championships were played exclusively between OBE teams (Connecticut, Notre Dame, Louisville, and Syracuse).

In a purely subjective sense it seems that the AAC is improving. Certainly this season is a little down for USF, and two of the three games this year were big blowouts; but remember that they had been narrowing the gap, and against last year's more talented Connecticut team that had caused basketball sage Debbie Anronelli to proclaim that USF was going to catch UConn. Maybe not - certainly not this year - but they've been consistent in making this league something other than Connecticut and a bunch of patsies. Meanwhile Temple has been on an upward trajectory that is much more visible this year, UCF is growing (time will tell if this is a one-off or sustained), and Tulane gave Connecticut perhaps its biggest scare.

Most importantly, and again purely subjectively, it seems that the AAC teams do not quit on Connecticut. In the past we've all seen teams that just gave up when they were getting blown out (or sometimes at the tip off...sometimes when the schedule was announced....) but it seems that this year and last, even when they were getting hammered the AAC teams continued to play each possession - perhaps not as intensely as possible, but they didn't just roll over and die. Little things like winning a quarter or giving Connecticut its second closest game in the last three years are the small victories that lead eventually to big victories.

So I'm hopeful, perhaps optimistic that the AAC can grow in the same way, if not to the same heights, that the Old Big East did, and I am already looking forward to next season.

Andy, this is a really thoughtful post. The Big East -- for purposes of argument, we'll consider it the league with WV and DePaul (two first-rate coaches, Mike Carey and Doug Bruno) -- was, IMHO -- the best basketball league for years, both men's and women's. I'm sure the AAC will never reach that level, but the AAC is improving significantly. I never expected that in one year we would get the overall improvement that we saw this year -- more competitive games, even if at times, the teams themselves weren't that good; fewer doormats; more competitive games out of conference and more games in which the middlin teams challenged the three top teams, a la Tulane-UConn, If Tulsa, Cincy and Houston move up a notch next season and the midrange teams continue to build on what they have, it should be en better in 17-18.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

When I think old big East.. I think more along the lines of pre 1991... I think of Depaul.. Louisville... Et Al.. As old conference USA

I meant the former Big East, the conference before it broke up. So West Virginia, Rutgers, ND, UConn, Louisville, DePaul, etc.

 

[UcMiami]

AndyCT really good post and tomcat nice follow on.

And just as a reminder, people forget that the 'strong conferences' aren't all that strong really, and I include the old big east in that. At their best, conferences get one team ranked in the top four, another team that maybe flirts with the top 5 and is solidly in the top ten, and then one or two 'also ranked' teams in the teens/twenties and then where they distinguish themselves in in the 'other top 50' teams in their conference with the numbers anywhere from zero to 4 or 5. And those 'other top 50' teams are not that good - they distinguish themselves from the also-rans with the quality of coaching, the seriousness of the players and maybe one or two moderately ranked HS recruits.

The old big east that we all remember had UConn and variously either ND or Rutgers most years in the top 10, and a rotation of Louisville, St. Johns, WV, Villanova, DePaul vying for top 25, and then a bunch of teams rotating into and out of the top 50 - but UConn and either ND or Rutgers made mincemeat of the rest of the league in not dissimilar fashion to the way they slice through the AAC, and we never took any of the games too seriously, just as we made mincemeat of OOC teams outside the top 10.

Well, the ACC has had three team in the rankings on and off this year, including the #1 team, and they have what I consider quality coaching pretty much throughout the league, and they have serious committed players. What they are lacking at the moment is depth in recruiting HS talent. I think it is getting better and I think USF, Temple, and UConn all help with that. Generally the games are pretty easy on the eye and not slug fests of bad basketball and bad coaching so that has to look relatively appealing to prospects.

 

[ivrytontusker]

Notre Dame's decision to leave the Big East had zero to do with WCBB. Their relationship with the league was always totally parasitic. Prior to joining, their Olympic sports programs were playing in the Horizon League. ND used the BE to legitimize their Olympic sports programs. They're second only to Texas in generating revenue from athletics. They used their football money to upgrade all of their non-revenue producing sports.

When they saw the breakup of the conference coming, they needed a nice warm, soft landing spot. Now they enjoy the same parasitic relationship with the ACC. Good riddance.

Attendance and ticket revenue shoot up when ND football comes to town- so the relationship is hardly parasitic. College athletics is about money, and ND brings in money. Simple as that.

The ACC realized that it was in their interest to have ND regularly playing their schools in FB. Certainly, the ACC is not in danger of falling apart simply because ND has retained FB independence, and this is because it has other strong FB programs (FSU, VT, Clemson, Miami, Louisville) as full members, which was obviously not true of the Big East. If the Big East schools had recognized this vis-a-vis Penn State long ago, the Big East would probably still be together.

If you read other team boards, it's annoying to see every UConn accomplishment framed by the conference we play in as if Geno had a choice. These old Big East teams had a hand in us being stuck where we are today.

I know people in ND athletics (you don't have to believe me, of course) and I can tell you that ND does not object to UConn joining the ACC. UConn's success in women's BB is seen as a positive by the powers-that-be at ND, whereas at the typical ACC school it isn't considered important.

 

[UConnNick]

Attendance and ticket revenue shoot up when ND football comes to town- so the relationship is hardly parasitic. College athletics is about money, and ND brings in money. Simple as that.

The ACC realized that it was in their interest to have ND regularly playing their schools in FB. Certainly, the ACC is not in danger of falling apart simply because ND has retained FB independence, and this is because it has other strong FB programs (FSU, VT, Clemson, Miami, Louisville) as full members, which was obviously not true of the Big East. If the Big East schools had recognized this vis-a-vis Penn State long ago, the Big East would probably still be together.



I know people in ND athletics (you don't have to believe me, of course) and I can tell you that ND does not object to UConn joining the ACC. UConn's success in women's BB is seen as a positive by the powers-that-be at ND, whereas at the typical ACC school it isn't considered important.

That's funny. The small blip in attendance a handful of ACC teams get by hosting ND football is virtually nothing revenue wise. Several ACC schools, most notably FSU, Clemson, VA Tech and UNC are going to get sellouts or close to it even when they play Louisiana-Monroe or other low level FBS programs, or even FCS teams. They don't need ND to pad their home attendance. Schools like Wake Forest and Duke might get a bump up in attendance, but so what? Their stadiums only seat 30,000. They can't cram enough people into their stadiums for it to make any difference. They sell a few more hot dogs. Big deal.

If ND was such a financial windfall for teams in conferences they belong to, then the old Big East would never have broken up. They remain independent and keep all of their football revenue. The ACC doesn't ever see a dime of it. One home football game vs. them every several seasons doesn't do anything financially for ACC teams.

In the old Big East they used their football revenue to dominate the Olympic sports and win the commissioner's trophy almost every season. The Big East made their Olympic sports programs relevant after they left the Horizon League. Sorry, but that relationship was purely one sided in their favor, and it still is for them in the ACC.

 

[ivrytontusker]

That's funny. The small blip in attendance a handful of ACC teams get by hosting ND football is virtually nothing revenue wise. Several ACC schools, most notably FSU, Clemson, VA Tech and UNC are going to get sellouts or close to it even when they play Louisiana-Monroe or other low level FBS programs, or even FCS teams. They don't need ND to pad their home attendance. Schools like Wake Forest and Duke might get a bump up in attendance, but so what? Their stadiums only seat 30,000. They can't cram enough people into their stadiums for it to make any difference. They sell a few more hot dogs. Big deal.

If ND was such a financial windfall for teams in conferences they belong to, then the old Big East would never have broken up. They remain independent and keep all of their football revenue. The ACC doesn't ever see a dime of it. One home football game vs. them every several seasons doesn't do anything financially for ACC teams.

In the old Big East they used their football revenue to dominate the Olympic sports and win the commissioner's trophy almost every season. The Big East made their Olympic sports programs relevant after they left the Horizon League. Sorry, but that relationship was purely one sided in their favor, and it still is for them in the ACC.

So why did the ACC agree to the deal, then? Nobody held a gun to their head and made them sign the deal, nor did they do so out of their love for ND. They thought it was in their financial interest to sign the deal.

At the end of the day, of course, it would be irresponsible for ND not to look out for ND. It isn't ND's fault that college football is not important in CT.

Nor is it surprising that the most academically distinguished school in the old Big East tended to be good at Olympic sports. A greater portion of the top players in those sports can gain admission to ND. Those players also have a stronger incentive to go to a school where the value of the degree is higher.

 

[UConnNick]

So why did the ACC agree to the deal, then? Nobody held a gun to their head and made them sign the deal, nor did they do so out of their love for ND. They thought it was in their financial interest to sign the deal.

At the end of the day, of course, it would be irresponsible for ND not to look out for ND. It isn't ND's fault that college football is not important in CT.

Nor is it surprising that the most academically distinguished school in the old Big East tended to be good at Olympic sports. A greater portion of the top players in those sports can gain admission to ND. Those players also have a stronger incentive to go to a school where the value of the degree is higher.

The only reason the ACC agreed to the deal is because it's their dream that ND will eventually agree to join the league in football. That's the same reason why the Big East agreed to admit them. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen as long as ND football gets a separate TV deal.

The biggest and most compelling reason that ND's relationship with the old Big East/ACC is parasitic has to do with it's access to the old BCS and new CFB playoff. Without the conference tie in, ND has no standing as an independent in football to gain entry to the postseason, the Big Six bowls, etc. In the old Big East, if they were otherwise qualified, ND was allowed to take a BE bowl tie in over a BE team. They agreed to play BE/ACC teams so many times per season in exchange for bowl access as a quasi BE/ACC football member.