The fall of the Bundesliga | The Boneyard

The fall of the Bundesliga

shizzle787

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As many of you know, Serie A has now passed the Bundesliga for 3rd in the UEFA coefficient (rankings). The Bundesliga will still get 4 Champions League spots going forward due to the format change starting next year, but for the Bundesliga fans on this thread, why is the Bundesliga struggling so bad in Europe?
I have my theory for this year (bad brands in Europe: Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Koln, Hertha Berlin, Freiburg, etc.), but will this be a trend going forward?
Serie A and the Premier League appear to only be getting better, and the Bundesliga is sliding at the wrong time.
 
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As many of you know, Serie A has now passed the Bundesliga for 3rd in the UEFA coefficient (rankings). The Bundesliga will still get 4 Champions League spots going forward due to the format change starting next year, but for the Bundesliga fans on this thread, why is the Bundesliga struggling so bad in Europe?
I have my theory for this year (bad brands in Europe: Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Koln, Hertha Berlin, Freiburg, etc.), but will this be a trend going forward?
Serie A and the Premier League appear to only be getting better, and the Bundesliga is sliding at the wrong time.

The Bundesliga has a policy against private ownership (50+1) which limits how much the teams can spend on players; the teams must really be run like a club and not like a business. That is why you don't see the monster million Euroi deals like we are seeing in UK, Spain, France, etc. The big concern here is fiscal responsibility, kind of Financial Fair Play on steroids.

I've been saying here (in Germany) for years that this day was coming but they kind of don't really care. Unless you're a fan of Bayern Munich or Dortmund (may RB Leipzig now) you don't really expect much out of Europe anyway. Bundesliga and DFB Pokal are much more important.
 
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A lot of talented players have moved to Italy in recent years. Napoli, Juventus, Roma, Inter and Milan are all players now. And even second tier clubs like Lazio are formidable.
 

zls44

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I think its as simple as the fact that bigger, privately owned clubs have swooped in for their top young players, as well as some really good young managers. That has a knock-on effect.

I hope some of this private cash flowing into Italy translates into more new stadiums. Watching so many of these games played before 12,000 at these Marshall Plan concrete behemoth shells is depressing.
 
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I think its as simple as the fact that bigger, privately owned clubs have swooped in for their top young players, as well as some really good young managers. That has a knock-on effect.

I hope some of this private cash flowing into Italy translates into more new stadiums. Watching so many of these games played before 12,000 at these Marshall Plan concrete behemoth shells is depressing.
You're exactly right. In the past Bayern and Dortmund could buy who they wanted; player costs were doable for them. Now with the private ownership outside of Germany and the monster amounts of cash given to the English clubs by SKY even these two giants are getting picked over (players and managers, like you said).

They in turn cherry pick the best players from the next tier of clubs (Leverkusen, Schalke, Mönchengladbach) and they then grab our best players/managers (Mainz, Freiburg, Stuttgart). I think the German teams top to bottom are being weakened by this; but they apparently don't want to change. I think these guys would flip out if private ownership became a possibility; they've still got their knickers in a twist over RB Leipzig and their "public ownership" model.
 
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Maybe it's just that these things go in cycles. Remember, Serie A used to be the top league in the whole world.
 
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Maybe it's just that these things go in cycles. Remember, Serie A used to be the top league in the whole world.

Partly because they went on a bunch of wild and irresponsible spending sprees.
 
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I look at it this way;
Imagine AFC and NFC East and West divisions have no salary cap (Upper portion of England, Italy, Spain, France)
The AFC South had a salary cap of 100 million (Top 3 in Germany, maybe Porto)
The NFC South had a salary cap of 50 million (middle teams in Germany, smaller clubs in the new Big Four countries and top teams in countries like Netherlands and Portugal)
The AFC and NFC North had a salary cap if 20 million (lower teams in Germany, middle/lower teams in the medium countries, and all of the smaller countries)
Who would win the Super Bowl almost every year?
 

shizzle787

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The Bundesliga has a policy against private ownership (50+1) which limits how much the teams can spend on players; the teams must really be run like a club and not like a business. That is why you don't see the monster million Euroi deals like we are seeing in UK, Spain, France, etc. The big concern here is fiscal responsibility, kind of Financial Fair Play on steroids.

I've been saying here (in Germany) for years that this day was coming but they kind of don't really care. Unless you're a fan of Bayern Munich or Dortmund (may RB Leipzig now) you don't really expect much out of Europe anyway. Bundesliga and DFB Pokal are much more important.
Here's my thing though: I remember reading about the 50+1 rule 8 or 9 years ago (so it's been in place for at least that long). In that time, the Bundesliga has gone from 5th up to as high as 2nd and currently down to 4th in the UEFA coefficient. So how were they able to improve with this in place? One other thing, I think you have the club and business thing backwards. It is the German clubs that have to balance budgets and act like businesses while the Real Madrid's and Man U's of the world are swirling in debt.
 

shizzle787

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I think its as simple as the fact that bigger, privately owned clubs have swooped in for their top young players, as well as some really good young managers. That has a knock-on effect.

I hope some of this private cash flowing into Italy translates into more new stadiums. Watching so many of these games played before 12,000 at these Marshall Plan concrete behemoth shells is depressing.
Juventus are the only big boys in Italy with their own stadium. Once Berlusconi croaks, Milan will sell to someone with a plan to build a stadium. What happened to plans for Roma's stadium?
 

shizzle787

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You're exactly right. In the past Bayern and Dortmund could buy who they wanted; player costs were doable for them. Now with the private ownership outside of Germany and the monster amounts of cash given to the English clubs by SKY even these two giants are getting picked over (players and managers, like you said).

They in turn cherry pick the best players from the next tier of clubs (Leverkusen, Schalke, Mönchengladbach) and they then grab our best players/managers (Mainz, Freiburg, Stuttgart). I think the German teams top to bottom are being weakened by this; but they apparently don't want to change. I think these guys would flip out if private ownership became a possibility; they've still got their knickers in a twist over RB Leipzig and their "public ownership" model.
It will be interesting to see how the cable bubble bursts in the UK as far as SKY is concerned. That could level the playing field quite a bit.
 

shizzle787

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Maybe it's just that these things go in cycles. Remember, Serie A used to be the top league in the whole world.
It's coming back.
 
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Here's my thing though: I remember reading about the 50+1 rule 8 or 9 years ago (so it's been in place for at least that long). In that time, the Bundesliga has gone from 5th up to as high as 2nd and currently down to 4th in the UEFA coefficient. So how were they able to improve with this in place? One other thing, I think you have the club and business thing backwards. It is the German clubs that have to balance budgets and act like businesses while the Real Madrid's and Man U's of the world are swirling in debt.
8-9 years ago is when the billionaires started buying into all of these teams, and within the last 4-5 years the Sky payout to the EPL clubs skyrocketed.

Perhaps I said the clubs/business thing wrong. What I meant by clubs, is that for most of the German clubs there is no private owner who can dump in a ton of money and have control. Everything comes from sponsorship and league payouts. A couple of clubs do have sugar daddys (HSV, Hoffenheim), but they have (officially) no say in how the club is run. Clubs like Bayern and Dortmund have big sponsorship; Augsburg not so much.

But 100 Million € sponsorship + 40 million € league payout for Bayern still doesn't compete with a club that can spend that on a single player acquisition.
 

hardcorehusky

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Over the last few years- the big money owners have purchased clubs in the EPL and now Serie A. That has obviously changed the landscape as the EPL and the top 7 teams in Italy spend money on transfers. Most teams spend the money on younger players- where do they go to get them? The Bundesliga.

There is a reason Schalke, Dortmund, Leverkusen, etc have world reknowned training academies. Because they develop young talent that ultimately gets sold for a large profit. The problem is when you play youth(Monaco being the exception last year), you don't win big. Schalke had a downturn the last few years. Dortmund is slipping once Klopp left and that batch of players mostly moved on. The Bundesliga model is finding African players or players from countries with lower level football(United States falls into this category) and develop them. Other leagues are now scouting these areas and increasing the competition for signatures.

England had trouble with the coeffficient until they changed the rule last year. Now, with 5 teams in the final 16, they have looked to turn the corner as well.
 
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SPSCT might see it differently but in my time living in Germany I detected a certain disdain for wreckless, big splash spending. That is probably a part of it to a certain degree.
 
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SPSCT might see it differently but in my time living in Germany I detected a certain disdain for wreckless, big splash spending. That is probably a part of it to a certain degree.
You're exactly right. That is why they won't change, even if it means the Bundesliga drops in quality and ranking.
 
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Serie A is doing a fantastic job of buying players cheap and selling them for big profits to the Premier League and even Russia. Roma has done this repeatedly.
 

Waquoit

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Serie A is doing a fantastic job of buying players cheap and selling them for big profits to the Premier League and even Russia. Roma has done this repeatedly.
I was watching some Serie A this weekend. It was in slow motion compared to the Premiere League.
 
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I was watching some Serie A this weekend. It was in slow motion compared to the Premiere League.

Who did you watch?

If it's the lower teams, they are nowhere near as talented as the top. Bottom of the premier is no great shakes either, frequently fielding cast-offs from some of those Serie A teams. Look at Watford for instance. Guys who couldn't play for the top 5 in Serie A end up starting at Watford.

But teams like Roma and Juventus have been succeeding at Champions League.
 

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