The Challenge of Playing two BIGs at the same time

[BroadwayVa]

My dude, we got the best coach EVER! The best staff and the best program. We put 6 players on the senior national team! How can you doubt this dynasty? How can you fight the optimism inherent in the grace with which we play and produce? Sky falling? Get Gampel!!! It will shelter you from the doubt and pessimism that plagues other programs! Bet on Blue! I'm out! Go Huskies!

Other programs? Haven't been reading the By lately, hm?
Until that NLR Arkansas native showed the world a tip of how great she shall be--the moaning was heard in Peek ing.

 

[hoopfan515]

It takes a versatile skill set and or a creative coach to make two bigs work. ND has been mentioned in the negative because of Shepard and Turner not working out as many had predicted. Turner is still noticeably ailing. But on the ND side of the ledger Two bigs have certainly worked for ND very recently. Whether it was Turner and Reimer, Achonwa & Reimer, Achonwa and Peters. Throw in Westbeld and ND has made two bigs work well enough to appear in championships games.
On the Stanford side of the ledger it sees to me there was always a credible big playing along side one of the
Ogwumike sisters: Pedersen , Ruef, Tinkle, Boothe, Appel.
Geno would also qualify as creative and one of his most creative and devastating lineups featured not two but actually 3 bigs: Dolson, Stewie, Kiah Stokes. This was the season Morgan Tuck missed the majority of the season but she was also occasionally deployed in this combination. To be clear this was not a starting lineup it was a combination featuring three bigs that gave opponents major problems. Two bigs or even three bigs can work. With this UCONN lineup you had to guard the entire floor, if you shot the ball, better not miss because you were not getting a rebound. You had to guard Dolson in the high post and you had account for Kiah Stokes on the block, while Stevie was carving you up from perimeter to post.

I miss the other 3 BIGS: Cash, Jones and Williams. None was taller than 6'2. Swin Cash was the smallest of the 3 but played much bigger than her size. I wouldn't count her out underneath the glass against most other taller post players. Size isn't always everything.

 

[baggerbob]

It takes a versatile skill set and or a creative coach to make two bigs work. ND has been mentioned in the negative because of Shepard and Turner not working out as many had predicted. Turner is still noticeably ailing. But on the ND side of the ledger Two bigs have certainly worked for ND very recently. Whether it was Turner and Reimer, Achonwa & Reimer, Achonwa and Peters. Throw in Westbeld and ND has made two bigs work well enough to appear in championships games.
On the Stanford side of the ledger it sees to me there was always a credible big playing along side one of the
Ogwumike sisters: Pedersen , Ruef, Tinkle, Boothe, Appel.
Geno would also qualify as creative and one of his most creative and devastating lineups featured not two but actually 3 bigs: Dolson, Stewie, Kiah Stokes. This was the season Morgan Tuck missed the majority of the season but she was also occasionally deployed in this combination. To be clear this was not a starting lineup it was a combination featuring three bigs that gave opponents major problems. Two bigs or even three bigs can work. With this UCONN lineup you had to guard the entire floor, if you shot the ball, better not miss because you were not getting a rebound. You had to guard Dolson in the high post and you had account for Kiah Stokes on the block, while Stevie was carving you up from perimeter to post.

Having a player like Stewie, EDD, or Parker allows you to have 2 big players, because one is a hybrid.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I forget which year it was, but I remember the announcers talking about how UConn was down in the number of free throws they took. It was a semifinal or NC game, but basically the announcers said they were more reliant on the three than in past years and that was the difference that allowed them to keep scoring at a high clip.

Thanks--I appreciate the information.
Geno changed the Women's game and brought on a lot of us that were Men supporters but enjoyed the precision of their passing and 3 ball scoring. Many thought Geno played Basketball the way it was meant to be played. Add Svet and here is a "girl" that plays like a man only better. Fast forward and look at CW!, Wow! 34 going on 35 years of great entertainment--that is almost as long as the Rockettes, with the same precision.

 

[DallasBUFan]

I agree with this to an extent. Baylor was much successful with this last year when they had a true PG. Having no true PG is really hurting the offense and when you have two dominant bigs that PG has to understand how to use them both.

If MM or Kim both currently had better PG's I think you would see better offenses. However, how do you sit one of the bigs when both are AA's? I think that is the dilemma for both coaches. Baylor has got to shoot more from the perimeter. They shoot a decent percentage, just need to shoot more. That has been what has lost them games in big moments.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I miss the other 3 BIGS: Cash, Jones and Williams. None was taller than 6'2. Swin Cash was the smallest of the 3 but played much bigger than her size. I wouldn't count her out underneath the glass against most other taller post players. Size isn't always everything.

When Swin ran up the floor there was no mistake it was Swin a very distinctive style.
Talent and beauty--like her Mama. Williams had a fantastic shooting percentage, from memory (fallible) abt 70 percent. When Geno was reminded of that percentage he said something like : anyone should get that percentage shooting 2 ft from the basket.

 

[MikeBlue]

Other programs? Haven't been reading the By lately, hm?
Until that NLR Arkansas native showed the world a tip of how great she shall be--the moaning was heard in Peek ing.

Oh I read the BY plenty, we're spoiled not doubtful. Lol

 

[CocoHusky]

Having a player like Stewie, EDD, or Parker allows you to have 2 big players, because one is a hybrid.

Way to sum up my lengthy two paragraphs in one good sentence. Where were you yesterday?

 

[DeeHusky]

McCowan and Howard tonight is the duo to see, I believe.

 

[oldude]

McCowan and Howard tonight is the duo to see, I believe.

While Howard is a fantastic rebounder, at 5’11” or so, I wouldn’t call her a BIG. She is more of a “Gabby-esque” player.

 

[BroadwayVa]

While Howard is a fantastic rebounder, at 5’11” or so, I wouldn’t call her a BIG. She is more of a “Gabby-esque” player.

Could you say------Megan Walker-esque??

 

[Gamecockfan77]

The prior team with two dominant posts was the 2016-17 SC Gamecocks. As good as they were with Wilson and Coates on the floor together, I have always maintained that SC was a better team once Coates was injured. The Gamecocks won the championship that year, in part because once Coates was out, the lane opened up for Gray and Davis to drive to the basket, Wilson was free to dominate on her own and Cuevas-Moore was inserted back into the starting lineup as a 2 guard where she was far more effective than at pg.

One of the very few examples where 2 BIGS flourished together on the court has to be Stewie and Steph. But the truth is that Stewie had the talent of a wing in a 6’4” body, and Steph had exceptional hands, passing ability, set high screens that could stop a charging bull and was capable of knocking down shots from the top of the key.

One final thought on two BIGs together on the floor. SC is justifiably pleased with the consensus #1 recruiting class. There is a significant challenge that faces Dawn once that class is on campus next year. Boston and Amihere are both post players who are at their best within 5 ft of the basket. It will be interesting to see just how SC integrates the two on the court together.

going to push back on this:

1. I don't think any team USC beat in the NCAA tournament was more likely to have beaten them if Coates had been healthy. In my opinion, South Carolina won the title that year because they could score from all five positions thanks to the addition of Davis and especially Gray, which was a major departure from previous seasons.

2. Having two dominant bigs is not a disadvantage. South Carolina was 100-9 (45-3) with Wilson and Coates together. It certainly has not hurt Baylor's record either.

As you noted, UConn had the size to match up and their size could score from all three levels. That's an even greater advantage. And UConn has typically shot the lights out from the perimeter vs South Carolina as well. as a result, UConn was the only team that beat South Carolina badly during that run.

I don't think Coates playing would have increased the chances of any team USC beat in its title run of having pulled the upset. To the contrary, I think it probably gave some of them a better chance of winning.

I think the primary difference between that season and previous seasons was being able to score from all five positions, which was not the case in prior years. I'd put Kaela Davis and especially Alicia Gray as the primary differences.


3. I think Boston may have a more diverse skill set coming in than Alaina, though it's hard for me to believe she'll be any better at deep post scoring. But I think her jumper may extend father outand I'm pretty confident she has a better handle to complement moves.

It's hard to predict Amihere being comparable to A'Ja, but that does seem like the position that better fits her skill set. I think Amihere probably starts out at forward with some center duties behind Boston. Or maybe it's the reverse. I don't see them splitting minutes.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Kim's two bigs philosophy is dump it down to the bigs and let them score or get fouled or both. Very similar to Dawn did when she had Wilson and Coates. Its a philosophy that does not guarantee a high success rate. Two bigs fighting for shots in the paint makes a team easier to defend, especially when you don't have good 3 point shooters.

"especially when you don't have good 3 point shooters"

Yes, here is the reason South Carolina lost when it did lose.

It wasn't that Coates and Wilson were so dominant that teams collapsed their defense around them.

It's that South Carolina could not make teams that did that pay from the perimeter. Not enough shooting. Not enough versatility from two of the three other positions on offense.

---

I think some of that could be Coach's preference, but a lot of it was simply South Carolina's ability to recruit.

Coach recruited all of the elite guards first time around, but couldn't land them. Just so happened what was local was big.

 

[Monte]

I think that the bottom line is: "How GOOD are your BIGS?"

......You could play 3,4, maybe 5 "Stewies" at the same time.

 

[Dillon77]

ND has 4 starters back from last season’s championship team, and Turner is more talented than Westbeld in almost every way except that Westbeld could knock down an open 15-20 ft shot.

ND has been mentioned in the negative because of Shepard and Turner not working out as many had predicted. Turner is still noticeably ailing. But on the ND side of the ledger Two bigs have certainly worked for ND very recently. Whether it was Turner and Reimer, Achonwa & Reimer, Achonwa and Peters. Throw in Westbeld and ND has made two bigs work well enough to appear in championships games.

Dang...I hate this kind of week with a few pre-holiday deadlines, not to mention the usual holiday stuff. Missed this entire thread yesterday. Hrrumph.

Anyways, Olddude and Coco, appreciated the insight that both of you gave on ND's two bigs. A few reactions.

- As late as the post-Binghampton game presser, Muffet has talked about how "We still miss Kat." The appearance of "we" and "Kat" really gets to the crutch of what that high post position does for ND, particularly when manned by Achonwa (as Coco brought up) and Kat.

Westbeld had such an inherent knowledge of what MM was trying to do that once the ball got into her, many of the inherent decisions for that offense were made: look for the high/low to Turner/then Sheppard; drive to the hoop if there are lanes; take the elbow jumper; move the ball to the weakside or merely keep the ball rotation moving. In fact, I'll maintain that one reason the Irish succeeded last year without a true pg is that once "lead" guards Mabrey or Young got the ball into Kat, the offense was off and running.

- Shepard, although with some very adept ball-handling and passing skills to compliment her good jumper, is still at heart a low post. Her ability to seal and go to the hoop was a gimme in the NCAAs. (Thanks Kat and Mabrey for the passes.). At heart, I think ND recognizes this and they're trying to come up with plan B.

- Coco -- when you say "ailing," do you mean hurt? Bri claims she's 100+ healthy, so I'd say she's still rehabbing what must've been a pretty serious ACL. Down low, it does not affect her that much, but a player like Megan Walker can expose the loss of lateral movement when she moves outside. Who knows if and when that will return fully, but I'd say the issue is more defensive in nature (Vaughn is going through the same thing.).

- I think the key is finding those complementary "bigs" that can work with each other and within the team's prescribed offensive approach. It will be very interesting next year to see how Stanford's Belibi and Prechtel do (and then joined by Brink in 2020), what Dawn does with Boston and Amihere at SC, how Cox migrates to the low post in Baylor(I think well). And in South Bend, who will take what post positions among Vaughn, Cosgrove and Patterson. I could see Ms. Brunelle very much working in the Kat position....

 

[DeeHusky]

While Howard is a fantastic rebounder, at 5’11” or so, I wouldn’t call her a BIG. She is more of a “Gabby-esque” player.

I agree; she lacks IQ and passing ability like Gabby has, but she can knock down the three; I think she had (3) three point field goals in that tight matchup they played against Marquette.

 

[CocoHusky]

- Coco -- when you say "ailing," do you mean hurt? Bri claims she's 100+ healthy, so I'd say she's still rehabbing what must've been a pretty serious ACL.

When I say still ailing I'm thinking more of her getting back to her old self, which may never happen. As I pointed out in another post Bri was injured April 2017. That is 20 month ago.

 

[baggerbob]

I think that the bottom line is: "How GOOD are your BIGS?"

.You could play 3,4, maybe 5 "Stewies" at the same time.

But Stewie, EDD, and Parker, along with Lauren Jackson are the only ones we have seen. Maybe in the future more will come along, but to be athletic enough, and determined to develop the skill set is unusual.