The Challenge of Playing two BIGs at the same time

[oldude]

In 1995 UConn won their first of 11 National Championships starting 6’4” Rebecca Lobo and 6’7” Kara Wolters up front. WBB was a much different game back then. The 3-pt shot was not as predominant as it is today, and UConn’s chief rival at that time, the TN Lady Vols, used to crash the boards with wave after wave of long athletic players.

Today the game has changed dramatically. It started in MBB with 5-out, motion offenses where just about everyone can shoot the 3. SI’s 2018 Sportsmen of the Year, the Golden State Warriors, are the epitome of this trend in modern basketball. Inevitably, spreading the floor with a 5-out motion offense spread to the women’s game as well. Geno, Doug Bruno and several coaches are disciples of this movement.

Spreading the floor created another trend in basketball. Essentially it minimizes, to some degree, the once dominant roll of Big Posts who basically live in the paint at both ends of the court. While teams can usually find a way to integrate one BIG, it is becoming increasingly difficult to play two posts at the same time. That’s not to say that such teams will not dominate lesser teams with their size. But when they come up against a talented team that can spread the floor and shoot the ball, their size can be neutralized.

The poster child for multiple BIGS over the past few years has been Baylor. The Lady Bears loss at Stanford this past week, with both Brown & Cox having subpar games should be a clear indication of the challenges that face such a team. Two BIGs can clog the lane creating a stagnant offense, and on defense they have to chase shooters around the court, something they are not particularly adept at.

The prior team with two dominant posts was the 2016-17 SC Gamecocks. As good as they were with Wilson and Coates on the floor together, I have always maintained that SC was a better team once Coates was injured. The Gamecocks won the championship that year, in part because once Coates was out, the lane opened up for Gray and Davis to drive to the basket, Wilson was free to dominate on her own and Cuevas-Moore was inserted back into the starting lineup as a 2 guard where she was far more effective than at pg.

One of the very few examples where 2 BIGS flourished together on the court has to be Stewie and Steph. But the truth is that Stewie had the talent of a wing in a 6’4” body, and Steph had exceptional hands, passing ability, set high screens that could stop a charging bull and was capable of knocking down shots from the top of the key.

One final thought on two BIGs together on the floor. SC is justifiably pleased with the consensus #1 recruiting class. There is a significant challenge that faces Dawn once that class is on campus next year. Boston and Amihere are both post players who are at their best within 5 ft of the basket. It will be interesting to see just how SC integrates the two on the court together.

 

[trisailin]

"with both Brown & Cox having subpar games "
Not disagreeing with the general premise of "two bigs create a far different dynamic", however, citing two people having sub-par games doesn't seem overly convincing. Can you name ?any? team that can have two players having sub-par games and still thrive?

 

[oldude]

"with both Brown & Cox having subpar games "
Not disagreeing with the general premise of "two bigs create a far different dynamic", however, citing two people having sub-par games doesn't seem overly convincing. Can you name ?any? team that can have two players having sub-par games and still thrive?

Point well taken. I guess I would respond that it’s a lot easier to neutralize two BIGs who play within a few feet of each other, then it is to neutralize 2 mobile players who can score from anywhere on the court.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Stewie and Stef were a pretty good combo.

 

[huskeynut]

Kim's two bigs philosophy is dump it down to the bigs and let them score or get fouled or both. Very similar to Dawn did when she had Wilson and Coates. Its a philosophy that does not guarantee a high success rate. Two bigs fighting for shots in the paint makes a team easier to defend, especially when you don't have good 3 point shooters.

If you play high/ low with a passing big on the foul line, your success rate is greatly increased. Kim should have Cox up top. She can pass and she can shot the foul line jumper fairly well. Can't put Brown on the high post because of here limited range.

Kim may be a great recruiter but she is not a great coach. She can't make in game adjustments. Baylor is not a disciplined team offensively or defensively. That's all on Kim.

I will also add that Muffet has the same problem at ND. Shepard and Turner doesn't work with both down in the low blocks. Turner's shooting range is limited and Shepard can hit the 3. Muffet is a very good coach so I am surprised that she has not do the high/ low game with Shepard and Turner.

Neither coach can change anything now. Both Baylor and ND will win a lot of games with their present makeup. But against teams that can play very good D, they are in trouble.

 

[Boreifs]

Kim's two bigs philosophy is dump it down to the bigs and let them score or get fouled or both. Very similar to Dawn did when she had Wilson and Coates. Its a philosophy that does not guarantee a high success rate. Two bigs fighting for shots in the paint makes a team easier to defend, especially when you don't have good 3 point shooters.

If you play high/ low with a passing big on the foul line, your success rate is greatly increased. Kim should have Cox up top. She can pass and she can shot the foul line jumper fairly well. Can't put Brown on the high post because of here limited range.

Kim may be a great recruiter but she is not a great coach. She can't make in game adjustments. Baylor is not a disciplined team offensively or defensively. That's all on Kim.

I will also add that Muffet has the same problem at ND. Shepard and Turner doesn't work with both down in the low blocks. Turner's shooting range is limited and Shepard can hit the 3. Muffet is a very good coach so I am surprised that she has not do the high/ low game with Shepard and Turner.

Neither coach can change anything now. Both Baylor and ND will win a lot of games with their present makeup. But against teams that can play very good D, they are in trouble.

Don’t they both use high-low offenses? To be honest, I can’t recall any team in basketball history putting two bigs down on the blocks on a consistent basis.

 

[wallman]

A coach cannot put them anywhere on the court together when they cannot keep up with the pace of the game.

 

[Charliebball]

I will also add that Muffet has the same problem at ND. Shepard and Turner doesn't work with both down in the low blocks. Turner's shooting range is limited and Shepard can hit the 3. Muffet is a very good coach so I am surprised that she has not do the high/ low game with Shepard and Turner.

Neither coach can change anything now. Both Baylor and ND will win a lot of games with their present makeup. But against teams that can play very good D, they are in trouble.

I have a feeling Notre Dame will be able to make some of the necessary adjustments with Shepard and Turner................remember that Turner is just coming back from major surgery and so far she really hasn't played very well..................if she returns to playing like she is capable off it will give Shepard more freedom to roam away from the basket and get her shots...........I'm certainly not counting out ND as UConn's biggest competition along with Miss State.............

 

[oldude]

Agree with those that point out the issue with Turner & Shepard, two highly skilled players that are trying to figure out how to play together. After UConn beat ND, MM was critical of her team for not getting the ball to Turner, who only had 7 shots in the game.

But MM’s criticism obscures the challenge for ND. The Irish want to keep the lane open so that Young, Ogunbowle & even Mabrey can attack the paint. While Shepard’s ability to shoot and pass fits well with ND’s offense, Turner largely gets her points off offensive rb’s and being fed by teammates in the post.

Megan did a decent job bodying up Turner in the paint, and playing off her when she stayed outside. In addition, while Turner is an effective shot blocker, Megan made her pay for playing off her by hitting several open looks.

After the game Geno made the insightful comment about ND that, “Just because you have everyone coming back it doesn’t mean you have the same team.” ND has 4 starters back from last season’s championship team, and Turner is more talented than Westbeld in almost every way except that Westbeld could knock down an open 15-20 ft shot.

 

[CocoHusky]

It takes a versatile skill set and or a creative coach to make two bigs work. ND has been mentioned in the negative because of Shepard and Turner not working out as many had predicted. Turner is still noticeably ailing. But on the ND side of the ledger Two bigs have certainly worked for ND very recently. Whether it was Turner and Reimer, Achonwa & Reimer, Achonwa and Peters. Throw in Westbeld and ND has made two bigs work well enough to appear in championships games.
On the Stanford side of the ledger it sees to me there was always a credible big playing along side one of the
Ogwumike sisters: Pedersen , Ruef, Tinkle, Boothe, Appel.
Geno would also qualify as creative and one of his most creative and devastating lineups featured not two but actually 3 bigs: Dolson, Stewie, Kiah Stokes. This was the season Morgan Tuck missed the majority of the season but she was also occasionally deployed in this combination. To be clear this was not a starting lineup it was a combination featuring three bigs that gave opponents major problems. Two bigs or even three bigs can work. With this UCONN lineup you had to guard the entire floor, if you shot the ball, better not miss because you were not getting a rebound. You had to guard Dolson in the high post and you had account for Kiah Stokes on the block, while Stevie was carving you up from perimeter to post.

 

[huskeynut]

Don’t they both use high-low offenses? To be honest, I can’t recall any team in basketball history putting two bigs down on the blocks on a consistent basis.

I'm going to say no. Watch Baylor. The ball movement does not run through the high post. The guards dribble, drive, penetrate and kick off to the bigs a lot. I don't consider Cox ranging away from the basket to shoot high/ low offense.

ND will figure out the Shepard - Turner problem at some point.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm going to say no. Watch Baylor. The ball movement does not run through the high post. The guards dribble, drive, penetrate and kick off to the bigs a lot. I don't consider Cox ranging away from the basket to shoot high/ low offense.
ND will figure out the Shepard - Turner problem at some point.

Right about the time Turner gets fully healthy.

 

[oldude]

It takes a versatile skill set and or a creative coach to make two bigs work. ND has been mentioned in the negative because of Shepard and Turner not working out as many had predicted. Turner is still noticeably ailing. But on the ND side of the ledger Two bigs have certainly worked for ND very recently. Whether it was Turner and Reimer, Achonwa & Reimer, Achonwa and Peters. Throw in Westbeld and ND has made two bigs work well enough to appear in championships games.
On the Stanford side of the ledger it sees to me the was always a credible big playing along side one of the
Ogwumike sisters: Pedersen , Ruef, Tinkle, Boothe, Appel.
Geno would also qualify as a creative and one of his most creative and devastating lineups featured not two but actually 3 bigs: Dolson, Stewie, Kiah Stokes. This was the season Morgan Tuck missed the majority of the season but she was also occasionally deployed in this combination. To be clear this was not a starting lineup it was a combination featuring three bigs that gave opponents major problems. Two bigs or even three bigs can work. With this UCONN lineup you had to guard the entire floor, if you shot the ball better not miss because yo were not getting a rebound. You had to guard Dolson in the high post and you had account for Kiah Stokes on the block, while Stevie was carving you up from perimeter to post.

I agree with your general assessment, but would point out that the 3 schools you site where multiple BIGs in the lineup have experienced success, are arguably coached by the top 3 coaches in WBB.

 

[oldude]

Right about the time Turner gets fully healthy.

While I truly hope that Turner makes it all the way back, she has been injury prone throughout her college career. It’s possible that Turner is about as healthy as she will get.

 

[southofnorth]

A 4 and a 5 should (in theory) be able to play well with each other since basketball schemes were designed to have 5 unique positions. However, a lot of 4 players either can’t even make an 8 footer anymore or are incredibly versatile. Essentially, some players are being treated as 4s despite having the game of a 5 (Jessica Shepherd comes to mind; her shooting ability is not consistent enough to make her a legitimate “versatile” player). In the case of Cox and Brown, Brown said it herself that she is a throwback to true 5s. Cox can shoot the 3, but it seems as though she doesn’t work enough on her handle or her shot to be a confident driver or midrange/outside shooting threat.

 

[DefenseBB]

I really think the issue is 2 immobile bigs as neither Kalani nor Lauren are fleet of foot, heck they make Jessica Shepard seem downright "Gabbyesque" with her movements by comparison. Add in the fact that Kalani is still very foul prone and Lauren's diabetes concerns and it's a recipe for problems. I think Baylor will be much better next year when Brown is gone and she can rely on her athletes (plus Morris) to surround Cox.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Today the game has changed dramatically. It started in MBB with 5-out, motion offenses where just about everyone can shoot the 3. SI’s 2018 Sportsmen of the Year, the Golden State Warriors, are the epitome of this trend in modern basketball. Inevitably, spreading the floor with a 5-out motion offense spread to the women’s game as well. Geno, Doug Bruno and several coaches are disciples of this movement.

Actually, Mike D'Antoni employed this tactic with the Phoenix Suns for a number of years (think 2004-2007), especially when Amare Stoudemire was injured. One year in the playoffs, we used Tim Thomas and Boris Diaw as our default frontcourt. It was part of "Seven Seconds Or Less" basketball, where shooting and spacing were at a premium, and the Suns made sure to be able to be threats from all over the court.

It also required an elite playmaker in Steve Nash and a secondary playmaker in Boris Diaw, which is what GS has now in Steph Curry and Draymond Green.

 

[MikeBlue]

Just watched the 2009 and 2010 NC games the other night and we started teams that were: 6'4, 6'0, 5'10, 5'10 and 5'9/5'10. The beat the Nneka Ogwumike and Jane Appel Stanford teams and the Britney Griner Baylor Team. In measurement they were outsized both years either in the Semi's or the Finals or both. It's what's in your heart and the technique you employ from the coaching you received. We will face challenges on defense, but these teams with lots of height, like Baylor or Stanford this year, have to deal with us on the other end, nevermind transition. So, no worries folks, let's play the games and have faith in our ladies! Go Huskies!

 

[BroadwayVa]

Just watched the 2009 and 2010 NC games the other night and we started teams that were: 6'4, 6'0, 5'10, 5'10 and 5'9/5'10. The beat the Nneka Ogwumike and Jane Appel Stanford teams and the Britney Griner Baylor Team. In measurement they were outsized both years either in the Semi's or the Finals or both. It's what's in your heart and the technique you employ from the coaching you received. We will face challenges on defense, but these teams with lots of height, like Baylor or Stanford this year, have to deal with us on the other end, nevermind transition. So, no worries folks, let's play the games and have faith in our ladies! Go Huskies!

That 6 ft 4/5 in for Uconn was a work in progress. She as a frosh, was thrust into the fray as she learned the Uconn and WCBB div1 game. Much like a current 6 ft 4

How do you write --So, no worries folks? I keep being hit by projectiles on the top of my head----@rocky, what can that be other than the sky??? Huh?

 

[BroadwayVa]

In 1995 UConn won their first of 11 National Championships starting 6’4” Rebecca Lobo and 6’7” Kara Wolters up front. WBB was a much different game back then. The 3-pt shot was not as predominant as it is today, and UConn’s chief rival at that time, the TN Lady Vols, used to crash the boards with wave after wave of long athletic players.

Today the game has changed dramatically. It started in MBB with 5-out, motion offenses where just about everyone can shoot the 3. SI’s 2018 Sportsmen of the Year, the Golden State Warriors, are the epitome of this trend in modern basketball. Inevitably, spreading the floor with a 5-out motion offense spread to the women’s game as well. Geno, Doug Bruno and several coaches are disciples of this movement.

Spreading the floor created another trend in basketball. Essentially it minimizes, to some degree, the once dominant roll of Big Posts who basically live in the paint at both ends of the court. While teams can usually find a way to integrate one BIG, it is becoming increasingly difficult to play two posts at the same time. That’s not to say that such teams will not dominate lesser teams with their size. But when they come up against a talented team that can spread the floor and shoot the ball, their size can be neutralized.

The poster child for multiple BIGS over the past few years has been Baylor. The Lady Bears loss at Stanford this past week, with both Brown & Cox having subpar games should be a clear indication of the challenges that face such a team. Two BIGs can clog the lane creating a stagnant offense, and on defense they have to chase shooters around the court, something they are not particularly adept at.

The prior team with two dominant posts was the 2016-17 SC Gamecocks. As good as they were with Wilson and Coates on the floor together, I have always maintained that SC was a better team once Coates was injured. The Gamecocks won the championship that year, in part because once Coates was out, the lane opened up for Gray and Davis to drive to the basket, Wilson was free to dominate on her own and Cuevas-Moore was inserted back into the starting lineup as a 2 guard where she was far more effective than at pg.

One of the very few examples where 2 BIGS flourished together on the court has to be Stewie and Steph. But the truth is that Stewie had the talent of a wing in a 6’4” body, and Steph had exceptional hands, passing ability, set high screens that could stop a charging bull and was capable of knocking down shots from the top of the key.

One final thought on two BIGs together on the floor. SC is justifiably pleased with the consensus #1 recruiting class. There is a significant challenge that faces Dawn once that class is on campus next year. Boston and Amihere are both post players who are at their best within 5 ft of the basket. It will be interesting to see just how SC integrates the two on the court together.

I don't know how much anyone else gives Geno credit for the widespread use of the three, but I do. He stated early and often it was effective and efficient to shoot the 3. Fewer shots with the 3 equal more points than the 2 of equal number. Geno recruited 3 point shooters early and before: Sue, Sveta, DT, Shea

 

[Rixxx]

Heck, Wendy Davis was a three sharp shooter in the early 90's.

 

[southofnorth]

I don't know how much anyone else gives Geno credit for the widespread use of the three, but I do. He stated early and often it was effective and efficient to shoot the 3. Fewer shots with the 3 equal more points than the 2 of equal number. Geno recruited 3 point shooters early and before: Sue, Sveta, DT, Shea

I forget which year it was, but I remember the announcers talking about how UConn was down in the number of free throws they took. It was a semifinal or NC game, but basically the announcers said they were more reliant on the three than in past years and that was the difference that allowed them to keep scoring at a high clip.

 

[DEpup]

I really think the issue is 2 immobile bigs as neither Kalani nor Lauren are fleet of foot, heck they make Jessica Shepard seem downright "Gabbyesque" with her movements by comparison. Add in the fact that Kalani is still very foul prone and Lauren's diabetes concerns and it's a recipe for problems. I think Baylor will be much better next year when Brown is gone and she can rely on her athletes (plus Morris) to surround Cox.

I completely agree. I think NaLyssa Smith gives them more options from the mobility point of view. Others have said this and I also think the lack of passing ability is hurting them.

 

[DEpup]

I forget which year it was, but I remember the announcers talking about how UConn was down in the number of free throws they took. It was a semifinal or NC game, but basically the announcers said they were more reliant on the three than in past years and that was the difference that allowed them to keep scoring at a high clip.

I have to think that was a KML year.

 

[MikeBlue]

That 6 ft 4/5 in for Uconn was a work in progress. She as a frosh, was thrust into the fray as she learned the Uconn and WCBB div1 game. Much like a current 6 ft 4

How do you write --So, no worries folks? I keep being hit by projectiles on the top of my head----@rocky, what can that be other than the sky??? Huh?

My dude, we got the best coach EVER! The best staff and the best program. We put 6 players on the senior national team! How can you doubt this dynasty? How can you fight the optimism inherent in the grace with which we play and produce? Sky falling? Get Gampel!!! It will shelter you from the doubt and pessimism that plagues other programs! Bet on Blue! I'm out! Go Huskies!