The Big East vs. P5 and now the AAC...

[UConnCat]

It's a bit bizarre to me that the "other 10" Big East teams are overall so much more competitive nationally in men's basketball than women's basketball.

Interesting that the men's basketball teams of schools that left the Old Big East for the ACC are a lot less competitive. One glaring example is Pitt which used to be really good in men's basketball. The program back then had a recruiting pipeline in to NYC. That pipeline dried up when Pitt left the BE. Pitt has been terrible in the ACC. Same with Boston College. Syracuse is not what it once was in men's basketball. Louisville has been rocked by scandals so hard to say how they'll end up. Don't get me wrong, those schools love cashing the checks they get from the ACC but they sacrificed their basketball programs and the fans who supported those programs.

 

[UConnCat]

NCAA tournament bids for Big East Teams going back to 1995:

1995: Connecticut, Seton Hall

1996: Connecticut, Notre Dame

1997: Connecticut, Notre Dame

1998: Connecticut, Notre Dame, Miami, Rutgers

1999: Connecticut, Boston College, Notre Dame, Rutgers

2000: Connecticut, Boston College, Notre Dame, Rutgers

2001: Connecticut, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Villanova, Virginia Tech

2002: Connecticut, Boston College, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Villanova

2003: Connecticut, Villanova, Boston College, Miami Fla., Notre Dame, Rutgers, Virginia Tech (Tied for #1 in Conference Bids)

2004: Connecticut, Boston College, Miami FL, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia (# 1 in Conference Bids)

2005: Connecticut, Boston College, Notre Dame, Rutgers

2006: Connecticut, Rutgers, DePaul, Louisville, Notre Dame, South Fla., St. John's NY (Tied for #1 in Conference bids)

2007: Connecticut, Rutgers, DePaul, Louisville, Marquette, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, West Virginia (#1 in Conference bids)

2008: Connecticut, DePaul, Louisville, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia (Tied for #1 in Conference Bids)

2009: Connecticut, DePaul, Louisville, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Villanova (Tied for #1 in Conference Bids)

2010: Connecticut, DePaul, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Rutgers, St. John's NY, West Virginia (Tied for #1 in Conference Bids)

2011: Connecticut, DePaul, Georgetown, Louisville, Marquette, Notre Dame, Rutgers, St. John's, West Virginia (#1 in Conference Bids)

2012: Connecticut, Rutgers, Notre Dame, Louisville, Georgetown, Depaul, St John's, West Virginia (Tied for #1 in Conference Bids)

2013: Connecticut, Notre Dame, DePaul, St John's, Louisville, Syracuse, Villanova, South Florida (#1 in Conference Bids)

2014: Depaul, St John's

2015: Depaul, Seton Hall

2016: DePaul, St John's, Seton Hall

2017: DePaul, Marquette, Creighton

2018: DePaul, Creighton, Marquette, Villanova

2019: DePaul, Marquette

2021: Connecticut, Marquette

 

[oldhusky]

Whether it's the Big East or the AAC, neither conference offers much competition for UConn..........the program will continue to look legit by playing a very competitive out of conference schedule throughout the season.........those with great expectations for a Big East resuscitation will likely be disappointed......

Agreed. I do think the Big East is an upgrade, but most of the difference is in the bottom half of the conferences, which means Uconn doesn't have more competitive games, just the games they were winning by 45 against the bottom of the AAC may be more like 35 point wins in the Big East. It probably will move the SOS needle a little but not much unless the Depaul's and Marquette's start getting better recruits now that they are in Uconn's conference.

 

[drweo]

It is "bizarre" - but not so much. These schools do not have huge athletic budgets and men's basketball is largely a marquee sport (as it was in the oBE, which, after all, started with a lot of the schools we are talking about). Men's basketball generates revenue, the women's side not-so-much. I suspect that some of the schools don't really care much about women's basketball being even competitive, which just makes it worse.

I guess they never heard of the old adage: "You gotta spend money to make money." If the attitude of (most of) the BE schools is that WCBB is not worth the effort, they are guaranteeing that their teams will be nothing beyond mediocre. And they are ignoring the growing tide of recognition for the women's game coming from major figures in the men's game, viz., Steph Curry, the late Coby Bryant, the NBA, and all those NBA players attending the WNBA playoffs, etc. Those schools are already being left behind in the competition for the highest quality female athletes while other schools, besides the usual top teams, recruit the increasing number of skilled players and begin competing at the highest levels of WCBB.

 

[Vowelguy]

I guess they never heard of the old adage: "You gotta spend money to make money." .

No one, except UConn and maybe 1 or 2 other schools, makes money.

 

[Inthepaint]

I guess they never heard of the old adage: "You gotta spend money to make money." If the attitude of (most of) the BE schools is that WCBB is not worth the effort, they are guaranteeing that their teams will be nothing beyond mediocre. And they are ignoring the growing tide of recognition for the women's game coming from major figures in the men's game, viz., Steph Curry, the late Coby Bryant, the NBA, and all those NBA players attending the WNBA playoffs, etc. Those schools are already being left behind in the competition for the highest quality female athletes while other schools, besides the usual top teams, recruit the increasing number of skilled players and begin competing at the highest levels of WCBB.

I hate to say it, but it seems like a lot of schools with strong men's sports programs are doing the minimum to satisfy the Title IX requirements. As in, "Here, now shut up".
Now is a great time for some new rivalries and personalities to advance WCBB to the forefront, make a strong economic impact that will COMPEL some of the trustees with deep pockets to sit up and take notice.
Not nominating anyone in particular.....

 

[Longtime fan]

I have been watching this year unfold with optimism that the Big East could make inroads into the lead the P5 conferences had over us in terms of success, gravitas and NCAAT bids. Unfortunately while praying that Villanova, Seton Hall, Marquette and DePaul would exert some national attention grabbing wins, the AAC has sprinted by the Big East to #6 position with USF, UCF, Houston and Tulane leading their effort with a 49-22 record while the Big Least has 31-31 record.

Early season disappointments are Seton Hall (lost to Fordham), Villanova (lost Temple and Princeton), St John's (losses to Stony Brook and Charlotte) to name 3 of our higher profile schools. These schools plus DePaul and Creighton have also lost additional games to the P5 this season but those could be expected with the one note of "if you want to get ahead of them, you have to beat them at some point". To lose to the likes of the programs I listed simply can't occur if you are trying to elevate the league. I know many will say "Princeton is good as Carla is their coach" which is true with the caveat that Villanova should have a significant edge in recruiting and resources than what Carla has. Princeton did lose to URI so it's not like they are unbeatable.

The bottom line is the Big East needs to improve the recruiting, beat the lower mid-majors and earn a few good wins against P5 schools. Until we regularly do that, UConn in the Big East is not really moving the needle. Until that happens, we may be pre-ordained to be a 1-2 bid league with an occasional 3rd bid which is disappointing.

The most disappointing thing is that, unless UCONN has a miserable day ( even more disappointing ), we have no competition in any of these games. Whatever we try...works. Everything looks better than it is. We begin to deceive ourselves and, when we meet a really good team in the NCAA Tournament, it is easy to get smacked in the jaw and knocked out. The only challenges are those games UCONN has managed to schedule with non conference, quality teams. Otherwise, our own practice are more demanding. 'Tis a bummer. But it I what it is.

 

[Longtime fan]

I hate to say it, but it seems like a lot of schools with strong men's sports programs are doing the minimum to satisfy the Title IX requirements. As in, "Here, now shut up".
Now is a great time for some new rivalries and personalities to advance WCBB to the forefront, make a strong economic impact that will COMPEL some of the trustees with deep pockets to sit up and take notice.
Not nominating anyone in particular.....

Nonetheless, a great chance for a mediocre player ( but a kid who loves BB), to earn a full scholarship at a fine University.

 

[UConnCat]

Never fear, the AAC will go back down after losing UCF Houston Cinci and adding UAB FAU UTSA UNT Rice Charlotte

Massey ranks lost: 35, 84, 176
Massey ranks added: 107, 122, 124,184, 216, 318

So your saying UConn could have looked forward to games against UAB, UTSA (whatever that is), UNT (again who?), FAU (Florida Atllantic I'm guessing), and Charlotte? And streaming those games would have been put behind a paywall? Sure, the only benefit was less travel. SMDH.

 

[MD#12Fan]

O'K. 'If I were a horse I would likely/definitely have 4 legs'! My point was the obsession with being in a P5 (read tough) conference; and, the failure on the part of these P5 conf disciples to show how much more natl championships we could have garnered. Put simply, you can win Natl championships playing "Cup Cakes". We have shown that to be the case, but I might be dreaming. And I will leave open here the fact that a high percentage of those P5 teams that are playing nothing but top 10 teams have not made it past the Sweet 16.
I agree with GA- don't to any level but your own, and don't use a game to work on your game-- do the latter in practice. I'm embarassed to say that I learned to play basketball while at Uconn by watching for months, then playing alone, I got to be much better than my colleague who was fulled of himself and played with the big boys and learned nothing. That is also my reasoning for watching women's 'cup cake' bb rather than the men's high energy one-and-one and above the rim. Each to his/her own, I suppose.

I would say you are the exception. People get better by playing with better people. Don't forget UConn women are among the best basketball players in the world.
I always come back to what the players would want. IMO the NC is the accumulation of many things done well. The players want to compete and to be challenged. Every game would be a perfect world. Not 4X a year before the tournament. The conference championship should really mean something. 99% of all players in the US have a conference championship as their first and maybe most important goal. Watch the 30 for 30, "Requiem of the Big East". Men's competition in the BE in the '80s. How exciting it would be to play in a league in which every game is a blockbuster.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I might miss one but last year in the OBE
Notre Dame
Louisville
Syracuse
USF
Rutgers
West Virginia

I had forgotten about Louisville. That's a loss. (I mean would be great to play them twice every year.)

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Go back and check their records prior to joining the conference. Yes, they are establish programs now, but that was in prominent part due to the “UConn effect.” There’s no reason to expect that that will not happen again in poor current conference.

Not 100%, Rutgers was not a UConn effect. Rutgers did value their women's basketball program and as TG slacked, they were new coach shopping. CVS sort of fell into her laps, the only UConn effect was, as she has said, it was part of the teams that made the BE credible - remember, this was just as UConn won their first NC. The success of the program and the recruiting were CVS related, especially at the time.

That is the biggest UConn effect - it gives a conference a boost. How much it affects the behavior of the other schools and recruiting and all the rest is less clear.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

So your saying UConn could have looked forward to games against UAB, UTSA (whatever that is), UNT (again who?), FAU (Florida Atllantic I'm guessing), and Charlotte? And streaming those games would have been put behind a paywall? Sure, the only benefit was less travel. SMDH.

I don't quite get his point, either. But UTSA is UT San Antonio, it does not have a strong history. I'm assuming the UNT is North Texas, they qualify as what we call a "little sister of the poor" in spite of a brief spurt of athletic improvement a few years back.

My non-UConn fan take is that you would be better off in a Power 5 (so called) conference because of the opportunity to make money and play football. Absent that, the current Big East is probably a good conference for UConn. The competition doesn't really matter so much as far as I can see, Geno takes care of ensuring the team is exposed to other strong programs and is prepared for the tourney.

To your earlier mention of Syracuse on the men's side, apart from anything else - is Jim Boeheim ever going to retire? I don't follow men's BB, but he really, really seems "long in the tooth" as they say.

 

[CL82]

Not 100%, Rutgers was not a UConn effect. Rutgers did value their women's basketball program and as TG slacked, they were new coach shopping. CVS sort of fell into her laps, the only UConn effect was, as she has said, it was part of the teams that made the BE credible - remember, this was just as UConn won their first NC. The success of the program and the recruiting were CVS related, especially at the time.

That is the biggest UConn effect - it gives a conference a boost. How much it affects the behavior of the other schools and recruiting and all the rest is less clear.

Yeah, even as I posted to that I thought to myself “Rutgers may be the exception.” Since Rutgers has stopped playing uconn twice every year, their program has steadily declined. Now some of that may be CVS just reaching the end of her career, but I suspect a significant part is the exposure and recruiting advantage that playing against UConn gives other woman’s basketball teams.

For what it’s worth, I suspect that Chris Dailey would have taken the Rutgers job had it been offered to her. CViv was a great choice, but I think Chris may have been a better one.

 

[Vowelguy]

So your saying UConn could have looked forward to games against UAB, UTSA (whatever that is), UNT (again who?), FAU (Florida Atllantic I'm guessing), and Charlotte? And streaming those games would have been put behind a paywall? Sure, the only benefit was less travel. SMDH.

Dont be dissing on the North Texas Mean Green of Denton TX!

 

[BobbyJ]

I don't quite get his point, either. But UTSA is UT San Antonio, it does not have a strong history. I'm assuming the UNT is North Texas, they qualify as what we call a "little sister of the poor" in spite of a brief spurt of athletic improvement a few years back.

My non-UConn fan take is that you would be better off in a Power 5 (so called) conference because of the opportunity to make money and play football. Absent that, the current Big East is probably a good conference for UConn. The competition doesn't really matter so much as far as I can see, Geno takes care of ensuring the team is exposed to other strong programs and is prepared for the tourney.

To your earlier mention of Syracuse on the men's side, apart from anything else - is Jim Boeheim ever going to retire? I don't follow men's BB, but he really, really seems "long in the tooth" as they say.

He's 77 now. After the Syracuse athletic scandal in 2015 the NCAA wiped out 101 of his wins and he announced he would retire in 2018. But I guess when he realized Syracuse would let him do whatever he wanted, he decided to hang around to bring in his two sons and coach them.

 

[AgStatesman]

A lack of football is what is hurting the conference. When you talk about programs elevating, it really means committing to the financing necessary to do that. Without big time tv money coming in, there simply is a much lower incentive for any Big East school to say, "We are going to play big time women's basketball." I guarantee that outside of UConn, not one Big East School is spending as much on women;s basketball as ANY program from a Power 5 conference is. Actually, any time the Big East has a team in the top 50, that is a huge over achievement and quite miraculous.

 

[hjoerring]

I would say you are the exception. People get better by playing with better people. Don't forget UConn women are among the best basketball players in the world.

And according to your thinking the Program-- which is in a 2nd rate conf-- did little for them. Or, their achievements owe everything to the few games they got to play outside their conf (playing with better players)?

I always come back to what the players would want. IMO the NC is the accumulation of many things done well. The players want to compete and to be challenged. Every game would be a perfect world. Not 4X a year before the tournament. The conference championship should really mean something. 99% of all players in the US have a conference championship as their first and maybe most important goal. Watch the 30 for 30, "Requiem of the Big East". Men's competition in the BE in the '80s. How exciting it would be to play in a league in which every game is a blockbuster. Do you know of a Uconn player who have complained about their conf affiliation? We are imposing our own desires onto players.

 

[DefenseBB]

This thread has garnered a lot of interesting discussion with most of it being pretty good.
Let me crystallize some of my thoughts and take-aways with some of these posts.
1. As Val Ackerman had said, the Big East is a basketball conference and as such it was my belief that would also apply to WCBB in the conference in terms of better programs, better recruiting, better pay to keep the coaches and result in more bids. I still have hopes that will happen.
2. UConn has always tried to play top Teams in OOC, but since the OBE they have to rely on these games to get better competition. Having the NBE get better is not about UConn needing them to be able to win NCs or compete for NCs at least while Geno is here, but to improve the league and help the program down the line after Geno.
3. As I noted in another thread, Football and MCBB are the only sports that make money and even he mighty SEC with all their football money, have only the minimum or just slightly above the minimum number of men’s and women’s sports. P5 schools reinvest all that money back into Football and MCBB with a side dish of money for other selected sports like salaries for WCBB.

For the Big East to be really a true CBB conference, both men’s and womens programs need national success in recruiting, games won against P5, better pay for the quality Womens coaches in the league and better NCAAT results.

It happened for the MCBB and we hope it will happen for the women and only time will tell. A major boost of success would be Marquette paying Duffy more money to stay. Hopefully Denise Dillon can keep improving upon her success last year and likewise make Villanova a top Big East program. After those two though, the conference is void of any young and talented coaching. Both Doug and Geno are in the tail ends of the careers. That’s it as far as I am concerned for upside.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I said it in my post: a huge factor in what you're saying is that Geno gets the best WCBB in the country. So, NO, that's not what I'm saying.
If I was a HS All-American playing for an iconic program and coach, I would yearn to compete with other great players. That's how the world works as far as I'm concerned. I would not be as psyched to play the SH's, Butlers of the world.
As bad as that 4th quarter was for UConn vs SC, the players learned tons from it.

 

[MD#12Fan]

A lack of football is what is hurting the conference. When you talk about programs elevating, it really means committing to the financing necessary to do that. Without big time tv money coming in, there simply is a much lower incentive for any Big East school to say, "We are going to play big time women's basketball." I guarantee that outside of UConn, not one Big East School is spending as much on women;s basketball as ANY program from a Power 5 conference is. Actually, any time the Big East has a team in the top 50, that is a huge over achievement and quite miraculous.

What about the original BE? Not much football there either- Syracuse, ND, Louis.

 

[Vowelguy]

I don't quite get his point, either.

Someone suggested the AAC was equal to/better than the BigEast in wcbb. I pointed out that even if that were true, it wont be once the schools move conferences in a year or two.

 

[npignatjr]

Go back and check their records prior to joining the conference. Yes, they are establish programs now, but that was in prominent part due to the “UConn effect.” There’s no reason to expect that that will not happen again in poor current conference.

Those teams were solid before, UConn didn't bring them up.

 

[CL82]

Those teams were solid before, UConn didn't bring them up.

Disagree

 

[CL82]

No one, except UConn and maybe 1 or 2 other schools, makes money.

True, but that’s true for college athletics in general as well

 

[Zinethar]

I agree that as far as exposure playing UConn at home is a benefit to the other BE teams. it provides experience, exposure, and also in showing the ability to make some money. The UConn game can show the AD and other brass that the women's program could produce more income if they supported it better. Of course at least currently it has the downside of adding 2 losses a year.

 

[Zinethar]

One thing people who like to point out that Women's sports in general and basketball in particular don't generate as much money as the men's programs are of course right. I would like to point out one reason that is easily forgotten is how recent relatively the rise of women's sports is. The real financial support for football and basketball on the men's side doesn't come from ticket sales or championships themselves but rather comes form donations or endowments from alumni and other supporters. Most supporters and certainly former athletes are just now reaching retirement age or unfortunately dying off so dropping large donations to women's sports should be in the early stages. Somethings need time.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Yeah, even as I posted to that I thought to myself “Rutgers may be the exception.” Since Rutgers hahos stopped playing uconn twice every year, their program has steadily declined. Now some of that may be CVS just reaching the end of her career, but I suspect a significant part is the exposure and recruiting advantage that playing against UConn gives other woman’s basketball teams.

For what it’s worth, I suspect that Chris Dailey would have taken the Rutgers job had it been offered to her. CViv was a great choice, but I think Chris may have been a better one.

Yes, Chris actually wanted the Rutgers job, apparently, and was a tad put out by being passed over. Perhaps, as has happened at other programs, they wanted to sever connections completely to TG. There was a 10 year stretch where Rutgers was about the 9th or 10th best program in WBB by a whole bunch of metrics. Of course, they never won a NC. I'm not sure (one way or the other) whether Chris would have outperformed Vivian during that period. As CVS aged and as the program has been less successful, with Chris somewhat younger, perhaps.

Again, playing against UConn - except for beating them - did nothing for CVS's recruiting. Players largely came for CVS's name; witness the huge bunch of players that came after Rutgers was national runner-up in 2007 as well; success is a huge component of recruiting.

The benefit of the oBE was not solely UConn - it was the fact that it was a very strong conference 8 or more deep.

 

[AgStatesman]

What about the original BE? Not much football there either- Syracuse, ND, Louis.

No, there was. It's covered earlier in the thread. Boston College, Pitt, Rutgers also. We forget most of them now because for the most part they have all really sucked since they went to new conferences. At one time in the early 2000's I think it was - the Big East had the most amount of teams in the women's tourney. Once again, someone earlier compiled a great list of every Big East tourney qualifier.

 

[CL82]

Again, playing against UConn - except for beating them - did nothing for CVS's recruiting. Players largely came for CVS's name; witness the huge bunch of players that came after Rutgers was national runner-up in 2007 as well; success is a huge component of recruiting.

Most good players, if they can’t play with top recruits, want to play against them. I would be astonished if that was part of the recruiting pitch at Rutgers. I vaguely remember Rutgers players talking about their desire to UConn.