The Bad For The Game Drumbeat Begins

[bags27]

I may be in the minority here ( nothing new) but tend to agree with this central point from the article:
" The problem, as Carey sees it, right now is there is not enough elite talent in women’s basketball to go around and even things out."

I'm sure you're absolutely right that this is the most important reason (you know a helluva lot more about this than I!), but clearly UConn--which of course does get lots of elite talent--also has created a strong and deep program--not just Geno, but his assistants and the resources. I know we're homers and see everything through UConn lenses, but look how energized this program is! how much media coverage, local as well as national; how much more robust BY is than any other program's forum, etc.

Look at Stanford: it's a tired program. And maybe even Notre Dame (no kidding!): I worry that that program is getting tired of getting almost to the top of the mountain. Programs tend to lose steam and start to be unable to convert 2nd tier players into effective supportive talent for their elite talent, and can't make their elite talent into transcendent talent. Why? Just guessing because the women's game doesn't offer nearly as many incentives (revenue, TV exposure, etc) as the men's game and the coaching staff and the administration just aren't quite incentivized enough to push over the top (by incentivized, it's not about salary [Muffet, to pick one coach, certainly makes enough], it's about giving the extra 25% effort because the emotional payoff is worth it).

I agree wholeheartedly that it's mainly about the elite talent. But I think there may be structural issues connected to the women's game as well, is all I'm saying.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm sure you're absolutely right that this is the most important reason (you know a helluva lot more about this than I!), but clearly UConn--which of course does get lots of elite talent--also has created a strong and deep program--not just Geno, but his assistants and the resources. I know we're homers and see everything through UConn lenses, but look how energized this program is! how much media coverage, local as well as national; how much more robust BY is than any other program's forum, etc.

Look at Stanford: it's a tired program. And maybe even Notre Dame (no kidding!): I worry that that program is getting tired of getting almost to the top of the mountain. Programs tend to lose steam and start to be unable to convert 2nd tier players into effective supportive talent for their elite talent, and can't make their elite talent into transcendental talent. Why? Just guessing because the women's game doesn't offer nearly as many incentives (revenue, TV exposure, etc) as the men's game and the coaching staff and the administration just aren't quite incentivized enough to push over the top (by incentivized, it's not about salary [Muffet, to pick one coach, certainly makes enough], it's about giving the extra 25% effort because the emotional payoff is worth it).

I agree wholeheartedly that it's mainly about the elite talent. But I think there may be structural issues connected to the women's game as well, is all I'm saying.

No doubt UCONN has optimized it's share of the elite Men's and Women's talent. If I had to pick a secondary reason for the disparity it would be the enormous pot of gold at the end of the rainbow available to men only.
Since 1976 there have only been 2 repeat champions on the men's side (Florida & Duke). With elite talent, even small or non-traditional BB powerhouse schools like Butler, Seton hall, Indiana State, & Utah have managed to make appearances in the championship game. The payoff not only includes the players as the current Celtics coach was the coach at Butler and PJ Carlisemo is still collecting great checks off the Seton Hall appearance which was over 25 years ago. Contrast that with the WNBA where if the WNBA were to approach any FF coach of the past 10 years for any opportunity the discussion would likely include a pay cut.

 

[CocoHusky]

No doubt UCONN has optimized it's share of the elite Men's and Women's talent. If I had to pick a secondary reason for the disparity it would be the enormous pot of gold at the end of the rainbow available to men only.
Since 1976 there have only been 2 repeat champions on the men's side (Florida & Duke). With elite talent, even small or non-traditional BB powerhouse schools like Butler, Seton hall, Indiana State, & Utah have managed to make appearances in the championship game. The payoff not only includes the players as the current Celtics coach was the coach at Butler and PJ Carlisemo is still collecting great checks off the Seton Hall appearance which was over 25 years ago. Contrast that with the WNBA where if the WNBA were to approach any FF coach of the past 10 years for any opportunity the discussion would likely include a pay cut.

NBA Minimum Salary: $874,636
WNBA Maximum Salary: $107,000

 

[chrissaran]

How about Maryland, UCLA, Ohio St, Duke, North Carolina, Washington, Mississippi St, Tennessee, and others. Carey's response is such a load of *#&@!. Some programs have better coaches than others and coach them to an elite level. How about the year when Saniya was the only recruit?

 

[Ozimoto]

They do more than burn couches in Morgantown (I should know). When the Mountaineers beat the Dan Marino led Pitt Panthers when he was a senior (first time in 25 years) they even tried to burn a bathtub in the middle of Beechhurst Avenue! That was the celebration that led to the banning of open containers on the streets of Morgantown.

 

[Ozimoto]

As for the article, Mr. Hertzel could have done a bit more research and not taken Coach Carey's statement at face value about the spread of talent in the women's game, but he's no spring chicken anymore and he is more of a guest columnist than a hard core sports journalist at this point in his career. Many of the same arguments are being made in the sports bars (if not the media) about Alabama and college football. Most people believe that Alabama is going to win the title most years until Coach Saban retires.

Usually dynasties in college sports end when transcendent coaches retire. Alabama had down years when Bear Bryant retired. Notre Dame's dominance ended when Frank Leahy retired. UNC basketball suffered a drop off when Dean Smith retired as did UCLA when John Wooden moved on. On the women's side, you will see the same thing as Geno, Muffet, Kim, and Tara retire. It will be extremely difficult for those schools to maintain their "dynasties" when those coaches retire. And, how quickly people forget that in the NCAA women's tournament last year only one of the four top seeds made it to the final four. I don't think we are at the point where that will be a regular occurrence just yet, but I think it is a harbinger for a growth of parity in the sport.

 

[CL82]

Players are flocking to Waco for the beautiful landscape and the mild summers.

Ever see that husband wife renovation team show that's out of Waco? (Just googled it, they are Chip and Joanna Gaines/Magnolia Homes.) That show is like an ad for Waco.

 

[CocoHusky]

How about Maryland, UCLA, Ohio St, Duke, North Carolina, Washington, Mississippi St, Tennessee, and others. Carey's response is such a load of *#&@!. Some programs have better coaches than others and coach them to an elite level. How about the year when Saniya was the only recruit?

Calm down. The statement was: "Right now, Carey notes, UConn, Notre Dame and Baylor are cornering the market on Parade All-Americans."
He did not say Parade All-Americans were not going to other schools. Regardless of how you measure it (by total numbers or by most impactful) it is an accurate verifiable statement. Player development was not addressed in the article but if you want to go down that route Carey did a very nice job of developing Connecticut's own Bria Holmes & Saniya was also Parade All-American.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Geno agreed with reducing scholarships from 15 to 13. Many of the other College coaches that coach elite teams did not. With most Colleges using Male Practice players IMO there's not reason to have 15 players on scholarship. The two scholarships could be used for other Sports that females participate in. (Soccer, Swimming, Softball etc.)

Why does he not talk about reducing the number of scholarships from 15 to 13?

 

[UcMiami]

As far as elite talent goes, there are clearly a few years every decade when an 'elite' talent distances themselves from the pack of HS talent:
Candace Parker, Maya Moore, EDD, and Breanna Stewart were all those players, but in other years, even when there is a consensus #1 talent in HS the distance between them and the rest of the top ten is not significant. I did not include DT or BG in that list because coming out of HS they had not distanced themselves from other HS talent - Kelsey Bone and BG traded #1 and #2 positions throughout HS, but BG stayed at one school that designed its whole program around her talents for 4 years, Kelsey changed schools and suffered for it in her development - the same is happening for her as a pro. DT was certainly a prized recruit but there were a couple of others her year as well, and she and Beard traded honors through their college years.

And in terms of #1 recruits - Duke, TN, SC, UNC have all had them in the last half decade or so.

Uconn, Baylor, and ND get a lot of talent, but generally their talent lives up to or even exceeds the HS ranking, while some of the other schools consistently fail to nurture the talent they get. There really is a lot of raw talent out there in WCBB - OSU and Maryland are absolutely loaded, TX and Louisville are as well. And other programs that have recruit boatloads of talent have driven most of it away, into the arms of programs like FSU, and SC, and Baylor and yes Uconn.

The reality in the women's game is that you only need to get 2.5 good recruits per year because you get them for 4 years - so if you coach them up and retain them, and match the recruits you sign to the needs of your program, getting one top 10 and one top 30 recruit each year is sufficient to needs for an elite program. That leaves a whole lot of other talent available for other programs. Getting a Dolson or a Faris or a Kia is just gravy.

And all you need to do is look at last year's final four to understand that 'talent' is not the issue in competitive equality - ranked on talent, three of the FF teams should probably have exited at the round of 16, and a couple were lucky to get out of the round of 32.

 

[meyers7]

So, if I hear you folks right you don't want this kind of thing brought to your attention? But if I stumble on a good furniture bargain ....

 

[meyers7]

NBA Minimum Salary: $874,636
WNBA Maximum Salary: $107,000

NBA TV contract - $2.67 Billion per year
WNBA TV contract - $12 Million per year

 

[meyers7]

Ever see that husband wife renovation team show that's out of Waco? (Just googled it, they are Chip and Joanna Gaines/Magnolia Homes.) That show is like an ad for Waco.

My wife loves that show. And them.

 

[vtcwbuff]

My wife loves that show. And them.

Mine also. Now that they are successful and getting a lot of attention, they have been catching a lot of crap about being Christian and the way they choose to raise their kids. No cell phones or TV for the kids.
They make them play outside and encourage them to get dirty! Can you imagine.

 

[baggerbob]

How about Maryland, UCLA, Ohio St, Duke, North Carolina, Washington, Mississippi St, Tennessee, and others. Carey's response is such a load of *#&@!. Some programs have better coaches than others and coach them to an elite level. How about the year when Saniya was the only recruit?

The previous year had Stewie, Moriah, and Morgan possibly the greatest class ever.