The Art of Foul Calling | The Boneyard

The Art of Foul Calling

RockyMTblue2

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For a Ref what is the hierarchy of fouls? A player fouls 2 players simultaneously, one a shooter, the other an innocent bystander. What to do? And if it would matter to the correct answer, let's just say the bystander got whacked with an intentional foul. Here is a photo that can illustrate my questions [ and NO I am not saying Gabby was intentionally fouled, but just let's say she was IF it changes the answer].

Two Fouls.jpg


Yes, assume the ref(s) saw both fouls. ;)
 

JordyG

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For a Ref what is the hierarchy of fouls? A player fouls 2 players simultaneously, one a shooter, the other an innocent bystander. What to do? And if it would matter to the correct answer, let's just say the bystander got whacked with an intentional foul. Here is a photo that can illustrate my questions [ and NO I am not saying Gabby was intentionally fouled, but just let's say she was IF it changes the answer].

View attachment 29224

Yes, assume the ref(s) saw both fouls. ;)
Everything depends on the ref, where it's being played, who is being fouled, at what point in the game it is, who the ref is, etc. I've seen plays where this exact play is not called on the shooter, but the bystander is given 2 shots (they were in the penalty). A 4 point play. I've seen a no call. I've seen the foul called an and 1. Preety much every variation.
 
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Centerstream

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I prefer the obvious foul call, usually on a layup, when the defender never actually has any physical contact with the player with the ball but 100 out of 100 times a trailing ref will call a foul. Especially when the "fouled" player flops.
 

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Great movie. The cast were all great! At this time it would be unwelcome, but I always laughed when the woman in the crowd said "Here's a stick to beat the lovely lady." In context,it was hilarious.
 

RockyMTblue2

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Everything depends on the ref, where it's being played, who is being fouled, at what point in the game it is, who the ref is, etc. I've seen plays where this exact play is not called on the shooter, but the bystander is given 2 shots (they were in the penalty). A 4 point play. I've seen a no call. I've seen the foul called an and 1. Prety much every variation.

Vascily, Kantner and ????? ref'g at the Bulls home court, Kantner's on the baseline and Vascily is on court behind the play ... just kidding. Alas, of course you are right because refs are only human. My biggest gripes are two fold, the phantom over the top call and the shift in foul calling philosophy at mid-game.
 

RockyMTblue2

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Great movie. The cast were all great! At this time it would be unwelcome, but I always laughed when the woman in the crowd said "Here's a stick to beat the lovely lady." In context,it was hilarious.

My favorite line from the movie. I believe Maureen was hoping on one foot or about to put the shoe back on!
 

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My favorite line from the movie. I believe Maureen was hoping on one foot or about to put the shoe back on!
True, and she was lovely hopping or not, barefoot or not. Tough and beautiful, she stood up to both John Wayne and John Ford. Not many men could make that claim. That movie makes me happy each time i see it.
 

the Q

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It depends on the positioning of the official first and foremost.

If you don't have a good angle you can miss it.

The one on Z will get called. The second one might have to be one of those delayed, go to the monitor type calls.
 

CL82

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True, and she was lovely hopping or not, barefoot or not. Tough and beautiful, she stood up to both John Wayne and John Ford. Not many men could make that claim. That movie makes me happy each time i see it.
She Ford and Wayne were all close friends but she did call out Ford on occasion. Including in this scene -
The+Quiet+Man1.png


Ford initially had the wind coming from her back blowing her hair over her face. When Ford resisted her suggestion to change O'Hara said "And what would a bald SOB like you know about hair?" There was a tense moment of silent and then Ford laughed and changed the fans. O'Hara was right and the final version of the scene is stunning.
 

JordyG

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Vascily, Kantner and ????? ref'g at the Bulls home court, Kantner's on the baseline and Vascily is on court behind the play ... just kidding. Alas, of course you are right because refs are only human. My biggest gripes are two fold, the phantom over the top call and the shift in foul calling philosophy at mid-game.
I would also add current refs blindness to palming, shifting pivot feet and their insistence that a block from behind must be a foul. But oh yeah, I would argue that there is a 3rd shift in foul calling philosophy 2 mins into the 4th quarter on.
 
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I think this is a rule, but I can't stand when the offensive player "leans" into the defensive player on a fast break lay up, and the foul is called on the defender.
 
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Foul on Z. Insidental contact on Gabby. No foul
But isn’t incidental contact to the face a flagrant? I remember Lou getting hit in the face last year in the AAC tournament and that being mentioned.
 

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But isn’t incidental contact to the face a flagrant? I remember Lou getting hit in the face last year in the AAC tournament and that being mentioned.
Not sure if the gobsmack to Gabby was seen by the stripes. But if they went to the monitor ,they would have a tough decision to make.
 

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She Ford and Wayne were all close friends but she did call out Ford on occasion. Including in this scene -
The+Quiet+Man1.png


Ford initially had the wind coming from her back blowing her hair over her face. When Ford resisted her suggestion to change O'Hara said "And what would a bald SOB like you know about hair?" There was a tense moment of silent and then Ford laughed and changed the fans. O'Hara was right and the final version of the scene is stunning.
She was referred to as The Queen of Technicolor with good reason. Few of her scenes were not stunning! :D
 
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But isn’t incidental contact to the face a flagrant? I remember Lou getting hit in the face last year in the AAC tournament and that being mentioned.
Yes it can be. I have seen it called before but don't always agree with it.
 
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But isn’t incidental contact to the face a flagrant? I remember Lou getting hit in the face last year in the AAC tournament and that being mentioned.

I. Incidental contact to the face often is NOT a flagrant (now called an unsportsmanlike foul in the rules). First, to rise to the level of being a flagrant/unsportsmanlike foul, a player-contact foul must fall into one of these categories under the rules, with the last one being the most relevant one when it comes to elbows:

a. Not a legitimate attempt to make a direct play on the ball;
b. Contact designed to negate an opponent's obvious advantageous position;
c. Contact away from the ball against an opponent who is clearly not involved in the play, designed to stop the game clock or prevent it from starting;
d. Contacting an opponent making a throw-in. This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule 4-9.1.g.);
e. Excessive, hard and/or unnecessary contact against an opponent; and
f. Illegal contact caused by the swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive or unnecessary.

Further on, the rules give guidance as to what type of swinging of the elbow is "excessive".

II. Often elbow contact is not viewed as excessive under the rules:

"Action of a player's arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movement as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to faking with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control, shall NOT be considered excessive." (My note: this can still be a regular personal foul however.)

III. Examples of extreme use of the elbows are:

"a. When arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot; or b. When the speed and vigor with which the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that injury could result if another player was contacted."

- - - - -

Thus, moving the elbow as described in II above is not normally a flagrant/unsportsmanlike. Also if the arm is moved - but not swung excessively - to try to make a basketball play such as catching a pass or grabbing a rebound, it is likely to not be viewed as flagrant/unsportsmanlike if an elbow inadvertently contacts a player's face as long as it is not excessive.
 

HuskylnSC

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For a Ref what is the hierarchy of fouls? A player fouls 2 players simultaneously, one a shooter, the other an innocent bystander. What to do? And if it would matter to the correct answer, let's just say the bystander got whacked with an intentional foul. Here is a photo that can illustrate my questions [ and NO I am not saying Gabby was intentionally fouled, but just let's say she was IF it changes the answer].

View attachment 29224

Yes, assume the ref(s) saw both fouls. ;)
basketball is a contact sport. many times you have to let the incidental contact go. The contact to Gabby's proboscis, is incidental to the play and I don't call it.
 
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For a Ref what is the hierarchy of fouls? A player fouls 2 players simultaneously, one a shooter, the other an innocent bystander. What to do? And if it would matter to the correct answer, let's just say the bystander got whacked with an intentional foul. Here is a photo that can illustrate my questions [ and NO I am not saying Gabby was intentionally fouled, but just let's say she was IF it changes the answer].

View attachment 29224

Yes, assume the ref(s) saw both fouls. ;)
Rocky, you must be an engineer or math major. Unfortunately, Ref's aren't normally this logical or have the benefit of slow motion. I posed your question to two of my friends who are among the top D1 refs in men's game. Two interesting answers: 1. While each has a pre-agreed to role in watching the game, most tend to focus on the ball, not secondary issues. Action is too quick to have any other option 2. Often the call depends on the physical fitness and experience of the ref. Are they in position and able to anticipate the action.
 

Centerstream

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Rocky, you must be an engineer or math major. Unfortunately, Ref's aren't normally this logical or have the benefit of slow motion. I posed your question to two of my friends who are among the top D1 refs in men's game. Two interesting answers: 1. While each has a pre-agreed to role in watching the game, most tend to focus on the ball, not secondary issues. Action is too quick to have any other option 2. Often the call depends on the physical fitness and experience of the ref. Are they in position and able to anticipate the action.
And did your friends explain why perceived (phantom) fouls are called? I would love to hear that explanation.
 

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