The Ageless Ray Allen

[CallMeBruce]

I always thought Chauncey billups was the best player on that team. Hell, billups actually turned Carmelo into a winner for a few seasons with Denver. Loved rip on that team though. Def second best.

In the playoffs, Rip led the team in PER (19.6), though Billups and Ben Wallace edged him out in win shares. That was a very balanced team, so it's difficult to pick a "best player," but Rip was the leading scorer, so he's definitely in the conversation.

That being said, Ray has been a much better NBA player than Rip was. More prolific AND more efficient scorer, Ray kills Rip in all of the advanced metrics: PER (18.6 to 16.5), WS (145.1[!] to 62.8), ORTG (114 to 105), etc. I love Rip, but Ray is definitely top-10, and maybe top-5 all time at shooting guard. I'm not sure that Rip was, even at his best, a top 5 SG. If you look at his best 5 season stretch (statistically, 03-04 through 07-08), he'd have to rank behind Kobe, Ray, Iverson, Carter, Wade, and Ginobili. In Ray's best season (statistically, 2000-01), he rated as the best SG in the game, with only Shaq and Dirk rating as more valuable. Looking at Ray's best 5-year stretch (this is a little harder because Rip's 5 best seasons were in 5 consecutive years, while Ray's best seasons were spread out, but whatever I'm going with 2000-01 to 2004-05), he rated as the 2nd best SG in the NBA over that stretch, behind only Kobe, who is, at worst, third-best all-time (but probably second).

So, a lot of nerdery there, I apologize. The point is that, while Rip was a great pro, I don't think he was ever on Ray's level.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Ahh, another butt-hurt Boston fan.

I love how Celtics fans always harp on the fact that 'Celtics offered twice as much money as the Heat did'... The Celtics first offer to Ray was nowhere near that, and it was insultingly low. Then they went and got Terry. Only AFTER the Heat showed interest in Ray did the Celtics change course and offer him all of that money. Ray-Ray was wise enough to know it was shenannigans. Glad he got out of Boston, good for him.

Get some facts, and come back and see me.

Also, didn't the C's try to trade him? Twice? Boston sports fans are deranged. Whatever, he's on track for his third ring and the Celtics are a tire fire right now.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

This is BS. I love Ray but I also love the Celtics and Ray was not pushed out the door at all. The Celtics offered him twice as much money as the Heat did and a freaking no trade clause which only about 3 other players in the entire NBA have. And he still left to join the team he couldn't beat. Celtics fans had a reason to be pissed.

Get some facts, and come back and see me.

After dangling him as trade bait for a year and adding two players who played his position....but sure, they treated him like a king......

This is the same organization that made Bill Russell wait for decades to get a statue. BILL RUSSELL !!! New York would have renamed the island of Manhattan Russell Island if he delivered that many rings to the Knicks. In Boston, Ted Williams got a tunnel, Bobby Orr got a statue, Mr. Russell....well he got to wait. Boston never treats its own well. Ray had every reason to leave.

 

[Joobie]

Also, didn't the C's try to trade him? Twice? Boston sports fans are deranged. Whatever, he's on track for his third ring and the Celtics are a tire fire right now.

C's tried trading Ray 3 times. On the last try, he was told "pack your bags". He left the team on HIS terms. While I was heartbroken when that happened, I certainly understood it; especially after the Pierce & KG trades were done. It was pretty apparent that Ainge was building the team around Rondo...a guy who Ray had (well documented) issues with. I can't stand seeing him in a Heat uniform, but he continues to be an NBA legend & ambassador to UCONN.

 

[Scoe]

KG doesn't agree to go to the Celtics if Ray doesn't go there first, remember that. The Heat actively recruited Ray more then the Celtics did they had more money to offer but the Heat showed more respect to Ray during the FA process. Lebron is not only a better player then Rondo but he's a better teammate as well.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

It's cute how some of you get so exercised sticking up for poor Ray.

Incidentally, a self-serving quote from the player himself about how he felt unloved is hardly a "fact."

Ray made a move that he felt was best for him. End of story. The idea that he was treated any differently than any other professional athlete is dumb. They tried to move him? Big deal, Pierce was on the block dozens of times and he put in a hell of a lot more sweat equity than Ray.

Ray ended up where he wanted. The ONLY people still talking about how his tenure in Boston ended (and getting it wrong) are his self-appointed internet bodyguards on the Boneyard.

I'm sure pointing out the obvious means I'm "butt hurt."

 

[UChusky916]

I'm sure pointing out the obvious means I'm "butt hurt."

You do sound pretty butt-hurt

 

[Gurleyman]

It's cute how some of you get so exercised sticking up for poor Ray.

Incidentally, a self-serving quote from the player himself about how he felt unloved is hardly a "fact."

Ray made a move that he felt was best for him. End of story. The idea that he was treated any differently than any other professional athlete is dumb. They tried to move him? Big deal, Pierce was on the block dozens of times and he put in a hell of a lot more sweat equity than Ray.

Ray ended up where he wanted. The ONLY people still talking about how his tenure in Boston ended (and getting it wrong) are his self-appointed internet bodyguards on the Boneyard.

I'm sure pointing out the obvious means I'm "butt hurt."

Pierce was also not traded twice from places he was content - once in Milwaukee when George Karl wanted his pet and once in Seattle when new ownership came in and wanted to tank to build around youth (Milwaukee made a huge mistake, Sonics ownership clearly did not). Pierce also was never on the block in the Big Three era - he was on the block when the Celtics stunk and were trying for Oden/Durant.

Ray paid plenty of sweat equity in his career - just most of it wasn't in Boston. He paid it in trying to build up two franchises only to have the rug pulled out from under him for business reasons. So when he saw Boston management clearly moving in a different direction and looking to develop Bradley/adding Terry, he saw the writing on the wall and made a move on his own. Which clearly turned out to be the right one - and the fact that Doc, Pierce, and KG aren't around any more reinforces that as well. That era in Boston was ending, Ray just found the first life raft out.

The Celtics had every right to start getting younger, and Ray had every right to use his free agency situation to find what he felt was the best fit for him. He was brought in to Boston for three years and played five.

 

[nomar]

A quote from Ray Allen:

“I was very loyal to the city and I love the city, but when it came time to keep me in a uniform [the Celtics] did everything they could to seem like … to not want me to come back,"

Get some facts and come back and see me.

A Ray Allen quote is "facts"? Huh? That establishes that his feelings were hurt. It doesn't establish anything beyond that.

 

[nomar]

Pierce also was never on the block in the Big Three era - he was on the block when the Celtics stunk and were trying for Oden/Durant.

Not true. He was on the block once it looked like the window was closing. Ainge was considering all kinds of things. Remember that while KG had a no-trade clause, Pierce did not. There's also the fact that he was actually traded (although that was a year after the Big 3 era had ended).

I find this debate pretty entertaining. I like how the Celtics fans on this board -- all of whom LOVE RAY ALLEN -- are the ones accused of bias. NOT the people who LOVE RAY ALLEN and HATE THE CELTICS. No, those people know "the facts." Not the people who actually like both parties involved. The ones who love one side and don't like the other (or was a bandwagon fan). They're in the majority so they're in the right.

 

[amory]

Ray made a move that he felt was best for him. End of story. The idea that he was treated any differently than any other professional athlete is dumb. They tried to move him? Big deal, Pierce was on the block dozens of times and he put in a hell of a lot more sweat equity than Ray.

This, right here.

Ray did what was best for him, that's all. And that's fine, but Celtics fans had every right to be pissed off about it. We hadn't done anything but shower him with love for the years he was here. Everyone thought beyond any shadow of a doubt his #20 would be retired in the Garden. Instead he went and stood with the team that eliminated him and KG and Pierce the previous year while they received their championship rings and raised that tacky-ass banner.

 

[Rocktheworld]

This is BS. I love Ray but I also love the Celtics and Ray was not pushed out the door at all. The Celtics offered him twice as much money as the Heat did and a freaking no trade clause which only about 3 other players in the entire NBA have. And he still left to join the team he couldn't beat. Celtics fans had a reason to be pissed.

Get some facts, and come back and see me.

It isn't just about facts.

 

[Scoe]

Well as long as Ray is happy thats all that matters, pride.

 

[Rocktheworld]

This, right here.

Ray did what was best for him, that's all. And that's fine, but Celtics fans had every right to be pissed off about it. We hadn't done anything but shower him with love for the years he was here. Everyone thought beyond any shadow of a doubt his #20 would be retired in the Garden. Instead he went and stood with the team that eliminated him and KG and Pierce the previous year while they received their championship rings and raised that tacky-ass banner.

Just look at the butthurt.

 

[amory]

They offered him twice as much money because they had a worse team/situation to offer. It is mind blowing to me that you celtics people fail to forget that the celts threw Ray in every possible trade offer for 2 years, didn't offer an extenion before he bcame a free agent, and were making noises of breaking up the big three(which was the right move anyway).

So @amory tell me. If your job threatened to move your family/job 3-4 times a year, your company was talking about downsizing the company openly, and then didn't offer to renew your contract until you were on vacation and your contract had already expired. Now the company realizes that its shareholders will freak out and offers you a package to return.

would you call that "getting pushed out the door". Because I would.

Well, I'm not a professional basketball player. So the situations are a little different.

In any case the number of times Ray was confirmed to be in a deal are way overblown. Boston is a crazy sports town and trade rumors come and go all the time with nothing coming of them. The only time he was really close to being traded was to the Grizzlies in a potential deal for OJ Mayo.

Even though it's part of the job to deal with trade rumors (Rondo has to deal with them literally every year) the Celtics respected that Ray's feelings had been hurt, and they tried to do right by him by including the no trade clause in the contract he eventually turned down. The only other players that had a no trade clause, at the time, were Garnett, Kobe, and I think Dirk Nowitzki. That's respect.

So don't tell me the Celtics treated Ray like crap, it's just not true.

Just look at the butthurt.

Dude this gets funnier every time you say it. I can tell you're going to be a quality addition to the board. Keep up the good work.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

You do sound pretty butt-hurt

Nah, I don't particularly care either way. The Celtics did what they did and Ray did what he did. I just don't worship another grown man like some of you do.

 

[superjohn]

Kevin Garnett is a punk and a fake tough guy, FACT.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Kevin Garnett is a punk and a fake tough guy, FACT.

Great contribution.

 

[amory]

Kevin Garnett is a punk and a fake tough guy, FACT.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Nah, I don't particularly care either way. The Celtics did what they did and Ray did what he did. I just don't worship another grown man like some of you do.

This issue only comes up because of all the garbage talked by Boston sports fans about Allen. They still do, just like they talk about everyone who has ever left a Boston sports team. Fans up here are animals.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

This issue only comes up because of all the garbage talked by Boston sports fans about Allen. They still do, just like they talk about everyone who has ever left a Boston sports team. Fans up here are animals.

Brilliant stuff. You're 100% right.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Brilliant stuff. You're 100% right.

Pierce was traded so the team could tank. The way the local media bashed Nomar, Pedro, Clemens, Lowe, Francona, Ramirez, Allen, Walker, Welker, Damon, Ellsbury, etc on the way out was despicable. Leaking rumors about guys having DUIs or drug problems, I remember a leak that Mike Lowell, of all people, was a clubhouse cancer. It's the most bitter sports city I've ever encountered.

 

[superjohn]

And he has no clue how to do a pushup.

 

[amory]

Pierce was traded so the team could tank. The way the local media bashed Nomar, Pedro, Clemens, Lowe, Francona, Ramirez, Allen, Walker, Welker, Damon, Ellsbury, etc on the way out was despicable. Leaking rumors about guys having DUIs or drug problems, I remember a leak that Mike Lowell, of all people, was a clubhouse cancer. It's the most bitter sports city I've ever encountered.

In Boston you're either in the circle or you're out of it. If you got traded, that's obviously not your fault. If you left by choice you've stated that you're done with the fans, and the fans are going to be done with you.

That's how it is here.

I actually only root for two of the teams (Celtics, Bruins) but you can't argue with the success Boston has had. A Boston franchise seemingly wins a championship in one of the four major sports every single year.

 

[Gringo]

A Ray Allen quote is "facts"? Huh? That establishes that his feelings were hurt. It doesn't establish anything beyond that.

It establishes that in his opinion the Celtics were pushing him out the door which is why he ultimately left. If you don't think they did then that's fine, but please don't pretend like you know more about Ray Allen's situation then Ray Allen.