The “Other Player” wins again

[Alydar]

All of ND's starters got All-ACC recognition - Ogunbowale and Shepard 1st team (media and coaches), Young 2nd team (both), Turner 2nd team (media), Mabrey 2nd team (Coaches). And Turner got DPOY.

So the perception is clearly that Ogunbowale has a much better supporting cast. And the scoring numbers corroborate that.

Turner is ND's lowest-scoring starter at 13.9 ppg. Louisville's 2nd leading scorer is Dana Evans at 10.5 ppg.

Yet, ND and Louisville finished as co-champions. So yeah, I probably would vote for Durr, too.

The fact that ND stumbled badly against UNC without Jackie Young probably didn't help her candidacy either.

All that is good and expected from a ND fan because all you see from your team is outstanding offense. But there is another end of the court and Arike doesn't excel there. Wasn't Christyn Williams her assignment on the defensive end. How'd she do? I have character issues with Arike but those aside I see her as little more than a scorer. If she gets on a W team with established scorers she isn't going to get 15-20 shots to get her 6 baskets and if she is giving up 25 at the other end she'll sit.
As for missing Young, how many current all-ACC players on both teams suited up for the UNC game and how many wore green? All of them? The Irish remind me of Baylor the year after they won a title. They confused "title" with "entitled" and got beat in the S16. That team looked invincible but their attitude led to tears in the locker room.

 

[Orangutan]

All that is good and expected from a ND fan because all you see from your team is outstanding offense. But there is another end of the court and Arike doesn't excel there. Wasn't Christyn Williams her assignment on the defensive end. How'd she do? I have character issues with Arike but those aside I see her as little more than a scorer. If she gets on a W team with established scorers she isn't going to get 15-20 shots to get her 6 baskets and if she is giving up 25 at the other end she'll sit.
As for missing Young, how many current all-ACC players on both teams suited up for the UNC game and how many wore green? All of them? The Irish remind me of Baylor the year after they won a title. They confused "title" with "entitled" and got beat in the S16. That team looked invincible but their attitude led to tears in the locker room.

I don't know what you are trying to say here. I was saying that I agreed with the pick of Durr as POY. So I don't understand why you are trying to argue with me about her defense.

The point about Young missing the UNC game was precisely that ND should have had more than enough to win without her. But they didn't so it made it look like Young was the key player for ND, not Ogunbowale, which again leads to the conclusion that Ogunbowale should not be the POY.

It's like you read an entirely different post than the one you quoted.

 

[Alydar]

I don't know what you are trying to say here. I was saying that I agreed with the pick of Durr as POY. So I don't understand why you are trying to argue with me about her defense.

The point about Young missing the UNC game was precisely that ND should have had more than enough to win without her. But they didn't so it made it look like Young was the key player for ND, not Ogunbowale, which again leads to the conclusion that Ogunbowale should not be the POY.

It's like you read an entirely different post than the one you quoted.

You are right. I guess I got a bit crazy when I read "The fact that ND stumbled badly against UNC without Jackie Young" . I have yet read a post from an Irish fan about that game that simply said "we lost badly to a bad UNC team". It's always "we didn't have Young". Never do I read, "we lost to UNC with Shepard, Mabrey, Turner and Ogunbowale"
Sorry.

 

[DefenseBB]

I think everyone, including our ND colleagues would agree that ND has underperformed up until this point of the season. Young is a CRITICAL part of the offense and defense. In my view, Jackie is clearly their best defensive player and a catalyst on offense. But Alydar is right-Shepard, Turner, Mabry and 2018 ACC Athlete of the Year Arike should beat an underwhelming NCheat team at Chapel Hill.
This team is still very dangerous because they can score so much and the opposition has to have the ability to score with ND to take advantage of the lacking defensive skills.

Let's all agree that virtually everyone that is a UConn fan has NO LOVE for Arike due to her antics and the fact ESPN has been hyping those two shots all season. Add in Muffet's less than graceful sportsmanship over Stewie winning the AAC POY or with Durr winning it last year and you have the vitriol that eminates from this board.

As Nan has been reminding the non-UConn forum members-this is a UConn board and recognizing other great teams and players is encouraged, however touting these teams will likely invite derision, mocking, and outright hatred. It comes with the territory. I would not, for example, go onto McGraw's bench and tout Pheesa, KLS, CW, MW and Crystal Dangerfield as players who made all the AAC teams, POY, DPOY and FOY awards-it's bad form.

That said, I do always respect what @Orangutan and @Dillon77 have to say as they are usually very logical and measured in their comments about ND-some others, not so much....

 

[IrishTiger]

You are right. I guess I got a bit crazy when I read "The fact that ND stumbled badly against UNC without Jackie Young" . I have yet read a post from an Irish fan about that game that simply said "we lost badly to a bad UNC team". It's always "we didn't have Young". Never do I read, "we lost to UNC with Shepard, Mabrey, Turner and Ogunbowale"
Sorry.

People like me on that day of the game thread actually went off on ND so idk what You were seeing on here.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Has UConn underperformed? A team stacked with more talent than any other has lost twice and hasn't looked great in at least a couple of games against unranked and non-P5 competition.

 

[IrishTiger]

Has UConn underperformed? A team stacked with more talent than any other has lost twice and hasn't looked great in at least a couple of games against unranked and non-P5 competition.

I think You May have posted this in the wrong thread

 

[hoopsfan22]

I think You May have posted this in the wrong thread

In response to the post above yours claiming ND has underperformed.

 

[IrishTiger]

In response to the post above yours claiming ND has underperformed.

I never said ND has underperformed. Plus I’m a ND fan. Even tho they did Under perform in the North Carolina and Miami Games.

 

[hoopsfan22]

I never said ND has underperformed. Plus I’m a ND fan. Even tho they did Under perform in the North Carolina and Miami Games.

Please read post #29 of this thread to avoid confusion.

 

[diggerfoot]

I don't know what you are trying to say here. I was saying that I agreed with the pick of Durr as POY. So I don't understand why you are trying to argue with me about her defense.

The point about Young missing the UNC game was precisely that ND should have had more than enough to win without her. But they didn't so it made it look like Young was the key player for ND, not Ogunbowale, which again leads to the conclusion that Ogunbowale should not be the POY.

It's like you read an entirely different post than the one you quoted.

FWIW, I thought your post was reinforcing the point of the OP. Properly understood, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Let me act as interpreter. The fact that ND lost to UNC without Young is bad for AOs candidacy because, precisely as some UConn fans who are taking exception to your post say, they should have been able to win even without her, particularly if AO is an POY type player, but even if she is not. Hence, both points that ND underperforms with their talent level and AO is not an POY player were never meant to be mutually exclusive despite how some interpreted. Yeah, I know, you said that. I just thought if a UConn fan said the same thing it might make a difference.

 

[DefenseBB]

Has UConn underperformed? A team stacked with more talent than any other has lost twice and hasn't looked great in at least a couple of games against unranked and non-P5 competition.

YES, ND has underperformed given 4 starters plus Brianna Turner coming back. UConn, has ONLY 3 upper classman, having to break-in 4 other Freshman and Sophomores into the lineup. Though I gather from your H-Green meme you are not a UConn fan and may not be as knowledgeable in our team...

 

[hoopsfan22]

YES, ND has underperformed given 4 starters plus Brianna Turner coming back. UConn, has ONLY 3 upper classman, having to break-in 4 other Freshman and Sophomores into the lineup. Though I gather from your H-Green meme you are not a UConn fan and may not be as knowledgeable in our team...

There are only four #1 recruits in all of America. Three of them are in UConn's starting line up. Filling out the rest of the starting spots we have the best point guard from her class ranked overall #3, plus a NPOY candidate in Collier who was ranked 6th in her class. Coming off the bench is ONO, the 7th ranked recruit in her class. Our first six players are all ranked in the top seven of their respective classes. This depth of talent didn't exist even in the Big Three era, and certainly doesn't exist elsewhere now. I guess it is possible that all of the recruiting services have all of our players overrated and everyone else's underrated for the last few classes which would make this much less impressive. By comparison, Muffet has zero #1 recruits on her roster and only one more loss than UConn while playing in the toughest basketball conference.

 

[bbballfan23]

There are only four #1 recruits in all of America. Three of them are in UConn's starting line up. Filling out the rest of the starting spots we have the best point guard from her class ranked overall #3, plus a NPOY candidate in Collier who was ranked 6th in her class. Coming off the bench is ONO, the 7th ranked recruit in her class. Our first six players are all ranked in the top seven of their respective classes. This depth of talent didn't exist even in the Big Three era, and certainly doesn't exist elsewhere now. I guess it is possible that all of the recruiting services have all of our players overrated and everyone else's underrated for the last few classes which would make this much less impressive. By comparison, Muffet has zero #1 recruits on her roster and only one more loss than UConn while playing in the toughest basketball conference.

Just because they are ranked somewhere in HS doesn’t mean that’s the way it is. You can’t believe Megan Walker is better than Gabby Williams, whom I know wasn’t a top 10 player. There was for more depth & talent when Stewie was here, what are you talking about!?!?

 

[DefenseBB]

There are only four #1 recruits in all of America. Three of them are in UConn's starting line up. Filling out the rest of the starting spots we have the best point guard from her class ranked overall #3, plus a NPOY candidate in Collier who was ranked 6th in her class. Coming off the bench is ONO, the 7th ranked recruit in her class. Our first six players are all ranked in the top seven of their respective classes. This depth of talent didn't exist even in the Big Three era, and certainly doesn't exist elsewhere now. I guess it is possible that all of the recruiting services have all of our players overrated and everyone else's underrated for the last few classes which would make this much less impressive. By comparison, Muffet has zero #1 recruits on her roster and only one more loss than UConn while playing in the toughest basketball conference.

While I really like Crystal Dangerfield, she is not the best PG of her class. A young women by Sabrina who has that distinction. The team went 30-2 at this point only losing AT Baylor and AT Louisville while Winning AT ND. And if you know WCBB especially top programs, virtually all Freshman take time to adjust to playing at this level. So given that they lack a true post player and while Liv is 6’5”, the post position is the hardest to master, so she is still evolving. So while you want to say it didn’t exist during the Big 3 era, you may put too much stock in HS Hoopgurlz rankings as gospel, not as a best guess.
Let’s just say we agree to disagree in the what you think is underperformance. Which I venture to bet not many other fans here think this team is underperforming.

 

[hoopsfan22]

While I really like Crystal Dangerfield, she is not the best PG of her class. A young women by Sabrina who has that distinction. The team went 30-2 at this point only losing AT Baylor and AT Louisville while Winning AT ND. And if you know WCBB especially top programs, virtually all Freshman take time to adjust to playing at this level. So given that they lack a true post player and while Liv is 6’5”, the post position is the hardest to master, so she is still evolving. So while you want to say it didn’t exist during the Big 3 era, you may put too much stock in HS Hoopgurlz rankings as gospel, not as a best guess.
Let’s just say we agree to disagree in the what you think is underperformance. Which I venture to bet not many other fans here think this team is underperforming.

Is Sabrina a 1 or more of a 2/3? I see her more as the latter. Danger is a true point, and I would not trade her for Sabrina. Perhaps that is just my UConn bias creeping in.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Is Sabrina a 1 or more of a 2/3? I see her more as the latter. Danger is a true point, and I would not trade her for Sabrina. Perhaps that is just my UConn bias creeping in.

Before this season I would've called her a combo guard who split PG duties w/ Cazorla. But this year she has definitely been primarily a PG. Not a 3 at all.

 

[kenja]

I would venture to say that the other coaches in the league saw how she played, not only against UConn, but some of the teams in the ACC and decided that she was not close to being POY because of her demeanor.

I'd venture to say they've kind of dominated that league at the direct expense of some original members (we'll call them Luke and Morth Carolina) and there's some understandable resentment. I also don't share the opinion that Asia Durr is a poster child for team play either. Every time ESPN shows those buzzer beaters I'm ready to grab a ballot and vote against her too.

 

[kenja]

The number of times that full of mustard pass against UNC is going to be shown probably isn't going to make her an endearing figure to opponents either. But she has a whole thread on a non-conference's teams message board celebrating the fact she didn't win an award. That's a statement even if some don't want to acknowledge it.