Term Limits for the Olympic team

[SVCBeercats]

There's at least one glaring omission from that winningest of winners list in my mind. Nneka went to a Final 4 every year she was in college, has helped lead her team to two straight WNBA Finals and got one Championship, has a league MVP to her name. She absolutely belongs next to all of those other players. Delle Donne hasn't actually won anything outside of the Olympic team, and Griner's WNBA legacy is lacking at this point (one Championship but otherwise Phoenix has been underachieving her entire career--that's gotta be at least a little bit of a knock on Taurasi as well). A few other of those players haven't come close to sniffing a WNBA Championship. You can't base everything off of their college success.

"You can't base everything off of their college success." So how are you to evaluate the college players without viewing team success. How they make their teammates better is a big deal. Griner won a NCAA and lost an NCAA but she is 6'8" which is needed against in particular Australia. Delle Donne was a tad immature and emotionally tied to her sister and home. Otherwise had she stayed at UCONN or gone to Stanford or Notre Dame it would be another story. Plus her talent is hard to beat. Nneka? I have to admit I had real problem with not selecting Nneka. This is one I would like to hear the lack of selection rationale. Perhaps there is connection to Parker. Maybe without her teammate a she declined and removed herself from consideration. She strikes me as a principled person. Who would I remove for her? Hard question. As I said it isn't perfect but USA Women's Basketball has a really great track record. They did win the gold without both. Winning is what it is all about not participation.

 

[hoophuskee]

There's at least one glaring omission from that winningest of winners list in my mind. Nneka went to a Final 4 every year she was in college, has helped lead her team to two straight WNBA Finals and got one Championship, has a league MVP to her name. She absolutely belongs next to all of those other players. Delle Donne hasn't actually won anything outside of the Olympic team, and Griner's WNBA legacy is lacking at this point (one Championship but otherwise Phoenix has been underachieving her entire career--that's gotta be at least a little bit of a knock on Taurasi as well). A few other of those players haven't come close to sniffing a WNBA Championship. You can't base everything off of their college success.

I don't think what you are posting in reply to svc has much to do with what svc said. I don't see anywhere that was said Nneka shouldn't be on the team this upcoming time. It seems you are implying that? And I don't get your knock on Griner. You mean one NCAA Title an one WNBA Championship is no good? And further DT. What are you saying? Are you kidding? WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[j66kicker]

Delle Donne played at Delaware. I think carrying Delaware to its only ever Sweet 16 is the rough equivalent of Nneka helping lead Stanford to the Final Four, when you consider the talent they were surrounded by. By the same token, Nneka has also been surrounded by a much better WNBA team than Delle Donne. I'm not knocking Nneka and I've already said I think she should be on the national team, but players shouldn't be penalized just because they haven't had the fortune of playing on the greatest teams.

I think,“helping your team to the final four” is different from, “being the reason your team won a championship.” We’re talking about the best of the best, right?

BTW Delle Donne’s college career and results had nothing to do with “fortune.” More to do with “choice.” She will also be able to take responsibility for any WNBA results too, as she has been able to manipulate her way to the team of her choice.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Delle Donne played at Delaware. I think carrying Delaware to its only ever Sweet 16 is the rough equivalent of Nneka helping lead Stanford to the Final Four, when you consider the talent they were surrounded by. By the same token, Nneka has also been surrounded by a much better WNBA team than Delle Donne. I'm not knocking Nneka and I've already said I think she should be on the national team, but players shouldn't be penalized just because they haven't had the fortune of playing on the greatest teams.

It looked like the Sky were going to be the team to beat in the East for the foreseeable future w/ Delle Donne, Fowles and Sloot. Delle Donne forced a (bad) trade, followed by Big Syl a year later. The Sky took about 3 steps backward. Washington probably won't be a title contender anytime soon. Delle Donne did that to herself.

 

[Plebe]

It looked like the Sky were going to be the team to beat in the East for the foreseeable future w/ Delle Donne, Fowles and Sloot. Delle Donne forced a (bad) trade, followed by Big Syl a year later. The Sky took about 3 steps backward. Washington probably won't be a title contender anytime soon. Delle Donne did that to herself.

Whether she did it to herself should have no bearing IMHO on whether she gets selected for the national team.

 

[nwhoopfan]

SVC had a list of Olympians that he said are winningest of winners. I thought Nneka belonged among that list, she just hasn't been an Olympian, at least so far. Who could she have replaced? Was Catchings considered more of a stretch 4 or a 3? I'd swap out Nneka for Catchings 100 times out of a 100 for 2016. I said it either here or the other similar thread, I think Catchings was gifted her last appearance on the Olympic team, she shouldn't have been there and didn't earn it that year.

As for DT, I have no problem w/ saying she's the best of all time. NCAA Championships, WNBA Championships, championships for her European teams, gold medals. What I'm saying is Phoenix has been underachieving other than 2014. DT sat out one of those seasons. That still leaves 4 years w/ both Griner and DT that should be considered disappointing seasons. Do the players bare some responsibility for that?

 

[Orangutan]

It looked like the Sky were going to be the team to beat in the East for the foreseeable future w/ Delle Donne, Fowles and Sloot. Delle Donne forced a (bad) trade, followed by Big Syl a year later. The Sky took about 3 steps backward. Washington probably won't be a title contender anytime soon. Delle Donne did that to herself.

Your timeline is way off. Fowles forced her trade in 2015 (she was traded midseason but did not play in any games for Chicago that year). Delle Donne was traded after 2016. She played 2 years for Chicago after Fowles left.

Delle Donne was not the first or even the second to force her way out of Chicago (Prince also forced the Pondexter swap with NY).

While Chicago was a solid playoff team with Delle Donne, it didn't look like they were poised to break through and win a title. In retrospect, Fowles' trade demand was the end of Chicago's hopes as a legit title contender.

 

[hoophuskee]

SVC had a list of Olympians that he said are winningest of winners. I thought Nneka belonged among that list, she just hasn't been an Olympian, at least so far. Who could she have replaced? Was Catchings considered more of a stretch 4 or a 3? I'd swap out Nneka for Catchings 100 times out of a 100 for 2016. I said it either here or the other similar thread, I think Catchings was gifted her last appearance on the Olympic team, she shouldn't have been there and didn't earn it that year.

As for DT, I have no problem w/ saying she's the best of all time. NCAA Championships, WNBA Championships, championships for her European teams, gold medals. What I'm saying is Phoenix has been underachieving other than 2014. DT sat out one of those seasons. That still leaves 4 years w/ both Griner and DT that should be considered disappointing seasons. Do the players bare some responsibility for that?

You are taking the entire context of svc's post the wrong way. You took the names and "winning titles" literal. Anyhow while I was typing swc responded - so you and swc have at it. I agree with you and SWC -- Nneka is a beast. I'd be shocked if she doesn't make it. Right now the frontcourt players as a guess appear to be Fowles, Griner, EDD, Charles, Stewie, Nneka and Maya. Can still be a frontcourt player added as Maya can do anything, EDD plays/can play like a wing/guard and Nneka's versatilty is all-world. I can't recall much of 2016 though. I do remember the Parker issue as I was one -- and there were others I remember the poster coco also-- we thought Parker should have been on. So I didn't care much of others (your referencing Nneka vs Catchings) because I felt Parker should have had a spot.

I still don't understand your points of DT. For example, in 2017 Bonner, DuPree and Taylor were all gone. Phoenix finished 3rd in the West behind the 2 best teams in the WNBA the year before and this past year. DT missed 3 games-- Phoenix lost all 3. Griner missed 8 games, Phoenix lost 5 (one game DT and Griner missed.). Then they went and knocked off the best team in the east. That's not underperforming, is it? They have a "two-player team."

And when you say Phoenix has underperformed since 2014-- keep in mind DT didn't play in 2015. So it's been one year Phoenix underperformed since 2014.

 

[nwhoopfan]

My bad, I stand corrected on Chicago and Delle Donne.

Griner's first year w/ Phoenix was 2013. Their records have been:

2013 19-15 postseason lost in conference finals
2014 29-5 WNBA Champions
2015 20-14 lost in conference finals (no DT)
2016 16-18 lost in conference semifinals
2017 18-16 lost in conference semifinals

DT and Griner have played 4 seasons together. 2014 was great, DT skipped '15, '16 and '17 are nothing to get excited about. They have clearly fallen way behind Minnesota and LA in the West. You have the best player of all time and potentially the most dominating post of all time. I know a basketball team is more than 2 players, but when you have 2 components like that to build a team around I would expect more. How can you call '16 and '17 anything other than underachieving?

 

[Alydar]

ladies and gents, we need to have a moment of brutal honesty. TEAM USA has always been political and is even more so now. coaches need to rotate and term limits need to happen.

Did you post that opinion when it was Catchings in her 4th Olympics at 38?

 

[hoophuskee]

My bad, I stand corrected on Chicago and Delle Donne.

Griner's first year w/ Phoenix was 2013. Their records have been:

2013 19-15 postseason lost in conference finals
2014 29-5 WNBA Champions
2015 20-14 lost in conference finals (no DT)
2016 16-18 lost in conference semifinals
2017 18-16 lost in conference semifinals

DT and Griner have played 4 seasons together. 2014 was great, DT skipped '15, '16 and '17 are nothing to get excited about. They have clearly fallen way behind Minnesota and LA in the West. You have the best player of all time and potentially the most dominating post of all time. I know a basketball team is more than 2 players, but when you have 2 components like that to build a team around I would expect more. How can you call '16 and '17 anything other than underachieving?

I think your expectations are extreme. First off DT at 34 years old in 2016 and 35 in 2017 is no longer the best player on the planet. Secondly, Griner is not "the most dominating post of all time." She isn't physical enough to be considered that yet. Her rebound numbers imo show that. Third, while you say basketball team is more than 2 players-- yet in 2017 you seem to want to disregard that and not address what Phoenix lost in 2016. Losing to Minny and LA -- how can you say it is underachieving when they have overall MORE superior players? And again- I said 2016 they under-achieved. You were the one that said after 2014-- so I mentioned you shouldn't have counted 2015, right?

SO I'll ask -- how many people you think would have projected Phoenix to beat out LA or Minny the last two years? In 2016-- maybe. Which is why I acknowledge ONE YEAR they under-achieved after 2014. But 2017? IMO you are out of your mind if you expected anything better other than them losing to Minny or LA. AGAIN I'll mention they lost Taylor, Bonner and DuPree. That is 60% of their starting lineup. How can you then say that you know that basketball is a team of more than 2 players yet so casually dismiss these 3? They wound up being one of 4 teams left in the WNBA playoffs.

***Also-- do you realize that Phoenix was among the top 4 teams left in the WNBA Playoffs the past 2 years? Because I see that you are mentioning "Conferenne Semi-finals." Now matter how you slice it-- it is the semi-finals which Phoenix has gotten to. Or are you thinking they were in the Quarter Finals and lost? In 2016 after they lost to Minny - Minny was playing for the championship against LA. And this year when they lost to LA- LA in the next round was playing for the championship against Minny. So Phoenix wound up in the at the end of the playoffs the last 2 years among the top 4 teams in basketball losing in the semi-finals.

 

[Alydar]

"You can't base everything off of their college success." So how are you to evaluate the college players without viewing team success. How they make their teammates better is a big deal. Griner won a NCAA and lost an NCAA but she is 6'8" which is needed against in particular Australia. Delle Donne was a tad immature and emotionally tied to her sister and home. Otherwise had she stayed at UCONN or gone to Stanford or Notre Dame it would be another story. Plus her talent is hard to beat. Nneka? I have to admit I had real problem with not selecting Nneka. This is one I would like to hear the lack of selection rationale. Perhaps there is connection to Parker. Maybe without her teammate a she declined and removed herself from consideration. She strikes me as a principled person. Who would I remove for her? Hard question. As I said it isn't perfect but USA Women's Basketball has a really great track record. They did win the gold without both. Winning is what it is all about not participation.

Nneka had her MVP season AFTER the 2016 team had already been selected.

 

[DaddyChoc]

It's not that the roster is dominated by UConn players. It's that the roster has been dominated by the same players for a long time. Whalen & Augustus would be two non-UConn examples. I wish some of them would retire from international play though they should by no means feel obliged to.

Bird and Taurasi are legitimate living legends but if they are on the team again in 2020...

I feel like we're getting to a point where a whole generation of guards has been completely blocked from the national team. You could say it's up to them to be better and force their way into the team. But Vandersloot has been better (statistically, at least) than Whalen and Bird in recent seasons and eventually saw the writing on the wall and started playing for Hungary. Diggins didn't get picked for 2014 worlds after an all-WNBA season.

It's a lot harder to get a spot on the team than to keep it. It seems like favoritism hiding behind the guise of "experience".

 

[DaddyChoc]

other teams have gotten better and the USA doesn't have time to be experimenting with players... other countries have their players for just about the whole 4yrs between Olympics.

sent the best and kick a**

 

[meyers7]

Why should the players be limited to their pro teams?

They wouldn't but if you are practicing 3/4 of the year with a team, with which group of guys do you think you'd have the best shot at winning a medal with??? And then add in the owner's egos and well, there you go.

Hell, why shouldn't Kenyans dominate long distance running. If the best 6 or 10 marathon runners are Kenyans they should all get a shot at medals.

I said it was a silly idea for teams. But, you raise a good point, if it just becomes a national championship, what's the point of the Olympics??

That might disappear if the starters of a gold medal winning women's basketball team was composed of three US players, a Russian and a Spaniard.

Hmmm, like a WNBA team.

 

[meyers7]

This is such an interesting issue: team sports, in which participants are picked by a committee based on what's best for the team, vs. individual sports in which the individuals compete directly against each other and are chosen simply by best performance. (I realize that neither is always the case, but more-or-less).

We don't mind those in individual sports dominating Olympic slots, because they've proved that they are the best. But we wonder whether in team sports, where we could win with a variety of different participants, that we might want to share the wealth.

Not sure how the coaches would like that. "Here coach, we know this isn't the best team would could assemble, but we want to give some of the lesser players a chance to win a medal too. Good luck."

 

[Alydar]

They wouldn't but if you are practicing 3/4 of the year with a team, with which group of guys do you think you'd have the best shot at winning a medal with??? And then add in the owner's egos and well, there you go.


I said it was a silly idea for teams. But, you raise a good point, if it just becomes a national championship, what's the point of the Olympics??


Hmmm, like a WNBA team.

I don't think WNBA teams play together for 9 months. You may be thinking of the NBA. They start to practice sometime in April and for most of the teams it's over in the first week of September. But I agree that putting a team together and practicing creates a problem.

I guess my point is that as it is done now the Olympics is a battle between national champions and exploits nationalistic fervor to generate interest (& revenue). My Olympics would be a celebration of athletics where there would be no banners, no anthems and where US television would show all the events and not just those where US athletes excel.

 

[HGN]

This idea only comes about when you’re winning all the time. As soon as the team lost a game, everyone would realize that you needed to have the best players.

The selection committee should consider longevity as one of many factors. If the 12th slot is between a 40 year old and a 20 year old, I would hope they would recognize that selecting the 20 would help down the road.

I agree Vowel..................A few Olympics with No medal and a few losses will cure this urge of limits.

 

[meyers7]

I don't think WNBA teams play together for 9 months. You may be thinking of the NBA. They start to practice sometime in April and for most of the teams it's over in the first week of September. But I agree that putting a team together and practicing creates a problem.

I guess my point is that as it is done now the Olympics is a battle between national champions and exploits nationalistic fervor to generate interest (& revenue). My Olympics would be a celebration of athletics where there would be no banners, no anthems and where US television would show all the events and not just those where US athletes excel.

And right there is where yours would fail. No TV without $$$$$.

 

[Alydar]

And right there is where yours would fail. No TV without $$$$$.

I remember back in the late 70's a co-worker was in Italy during the Olympics and he told me how European television showed every event, commercial-free, 24 hours a day on several channels. It only took 30 years for the US networks to catch up. I stopped watching or caring about the Olympics when a 4 hour "live" broadcast had about 1 hour of actual athletic competition and 3 hours of warm-hearted features about some US athlete or a walking tour in whatever city the event was being held or some other nonsense. 2 hours of Jim McKay for every 15 minutes of athletics. I saw hypocrisy when Carlos and Smith got sent home for injecting politics and then our president banned the team altogether for purely political reasons.

No $$$$? Fine. Less revenue? If wcbb can get on tv without some network doing it I'm sure the Olympics will too. Just maybe less commentary , less crap, and more Olympics.