Supreme Court addresses NCAA on compensation

[dennismenace]

Supreme Court hits NCAA with full-court press in player compensation case - Washington Examiner

The Supreme Court on Wednesday hit the NCAA with a full-court press in a case that could decide the future of whether and how student-athletes are compensated.Nearly every justice found fault with the league's strict limitations on how colleges can award educational benefits as they grilled...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

A lot of very interesting questions being asked about double standards.

 

[bendm]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development of patents? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....

 

[freescooter]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in a university STEM program that assist with research leading to the development a patent? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....a full scholarship is worth a heck of lot more than course credit.

Grad student too. In fact they probably did a huge amount of the actual work. Undergrads less so

 

[BlueDogs]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development a patent? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....a full scholarship is worth a heck of lot more than course credit.

The fact is without the millions and millions in infrastructure and access to the leading minds in the fields, most of these “abused” students would produce squat. So, it’s more than a fair deal. If they don’t like it, they can go in their garage, buy equipment, and figure it out on their own, thus paying the freight for speculative research.... while also trying to feed themselves.

 

[bendm]

The fact is without the millions and millions in infrastructure and access to the leading minds in the fields, most of these “abused” students would produce squat. So, it’s more than a fair deal. If they don’t like it, they can go in their garage, buy equipment, and figure it out on their own, thus paying the freight for speculative research.... while also trying to feed themselves.

so you're saying the same principle should apply to athletes? they benefit from the millions spent on infrastructure, e.g. coaches, facilities, tournaments, being on tv, scholarships etc. and if they don't like it they can go play in the g-league or abroad?

should one group of students be able to profit directly but not the other?

 

[BlueDogs]

so you're saying the same principle should apply to athletes? they benefit from the millions spent on infrastructure, e.g. coaches, facilities, tournaments, being on tv, scholarships etc. and if they don't like it they can go play in the g-league or abroad?

should one group of students be able to profit directly but not the other?

I’m saying, if you want to make money, go make money and take the risk. It applies to all.

 

[Travelman6]

Instead of paying athletes, put that money into a general scholarship fund so every student, athletes included, can benefit. Imagine if even 1/10th of the profit the NCAA makes was used to give merit-based scholarships to all students.

IF athletes are paid, get rid of scholarships and give them to traditional students instead and let athletes pay their own way through UNI with the money they are paid.

It Stikes me as super unfair to give free rides AND pay them while tons of traditional students are swamped with excessive amounts of debt to pay for the sky rocketing costs of UNI.

Pipe dream that the NCAA would use some of their revenue to help every single student, but they could go a long way in helping every hard-working student, athlete or otherwise.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Not saying I agree with the overall economic model of college sports but this will decimate the way schools fund women's scholarships and run afoul of Title IX.

Something has to give if revenue starts going to players in basketball, football and a few other stragglers in random sports.

 

[Edward Sargent]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development of patents? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....

Not quite the same. If you graduate and go to work doing research for a company your name goes on the patent but you don't own it.

 

[JimCtheGOAT]

Not quite the same. If you graduate and go to work doing research for a company your name goes on the patent but you don't own it.

So what? your name goes in the program, on the website, in the record books. The issue is related to compentsation not credit tor participation.

 

[phillionaire]

Grad student too. In fact they probably did a huge amount of the actual work. Undergrads less so

Most STEM grad students, at least PhD students, are paid as researchers. I got onto a patent as a PhD student and was paid for my work, and we had undergrads that got onto the patent and were paid as well.

 

[Onions]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development of patents? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....

By all means lets treat athletes the way we treat grad students -- this means they can get paid for promoting products, make money selling branded products with images from their likeness, have no restrictions on travel and food gifts, are free to get tutoring (ie, workouts) with whatever professionals they chose. I think the athletes would take that in a heartbeat.

 

[freescooter]

By all means lets treat athletes the way we treat grad students -- this means they can get paid for promoting products, make money selling branded products with images from their likeness, have no restrictions on travel and food gifts, are free to get tutoring (ie, workouts) with whatever professionals they chose. I think the athletes would take that in a heartbeat.

I have an idea. Let’s create a new system. Call it a minor league system. Kids can elect to go there and play. There can be different levels even. G, GG and GGG. Players can get paid, don’t need to bother with pesky classes, or any of those academic things. They can buy their own meals, find their own housing. They can travel by bus from one garden spot like oh Passaic New Jersey to Akron Ohio, stay in the local Motel 6 and play a game, then get back on the bus for a ride to Muncie Indiana for another then the happy ride back to Jersey. If they are good enough they will eventually get called up to the Knicks or Pacers or somewhere. But in any case they get to live their lifelong dream. Getting paid to play basketball.

And let guys who want to go to college and play for 4 years and “only” get room board and a scholarship plus spending money, fly to games and play in front of thousands on tv stay at decent hotels, get specially prepared meals, gear, AND an education, do that.

Yes the NCAA has some dumb rules. Like most bureaucracies, every time someone does something sleazy the pass another rule until nobody knows exactly what is going on ( this is the planning and zoning board approach to governance) but last I looked not one single college player was forced to go to attend college. So I’m not sure I buy completely all this poor poor pitiful me stuff from the players. Play in the G league. Go to Europe or Turkey or China and play.

 

[Dogdeacon]

By all means lets treat athletes the way we treat grad students -- this means they can get paid for promoting products, make money selling branded products with images from their likeness, have no restrictions on travel and food gifts, are free to get tutoring (ie, workouts) with whatever professionals they chose. I think the athletes would take that in a heartbeat.

Bendm devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development of patents? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....

ONIONS! Right, the fake amateurism creates a side-cart of restrictions that hinder development, monopolize the individuals' skills purely for Univ benefit and make ANY kind of money earning pursuit impossible. Regular students or grad students have no such restrictions.

bendm: Two things:
1. Working on developing a product that may or may not have a future value or benefit stream is A LOT different than actually being the product that has a known value and extremely large CURRENT benefit stream that produces revenue for others (the very revenue that funds the infrastructure). For this analogy to work the grad students would physically be or serve as a part of the patents or products they create.
2. Plus in the business world of patents, the company that owns/funds or an individual leader ultimately reaps the vast majority of value. In the world of sports that are not systemically amateur, athletes receive at least half (NBA 51% I believe) of the benefits.
In the business analogy saying grad students should get a share of the profits is akin to saying every worker in every job should be made a part owner? No, everyone simply deserves a fair wage for the work they do and value they create. Patents of course involve research, a ton of money, and a ton of risk - yes employees get some reward for their labors, but the equity source takes the most risk, provides funding for the materials needed, pays wages with no certainty of future income and therefore reaps the $ benefit.

 

[bendm]

By all means lets treat athletes the way we treat grad students -- this means they can get paid for promoting products, make money selling branded products with images from their likeness, have no restrictions on travel and food gifts, are free to get tutoring (ie, workouts) with whatever professionals they chose. I think the athletes would take that in a heartbeat.

i didnt say anything about grad students, freescooter did. i'm specifically comparing undergrads to undergrads. of course an undergrad is free to start his own private/independent business but he's not getting paid by the university to do that

 

[HuskyHawk]

Supreme Court hits NCAA with full-court press in player compensation case - Washington Examiner

The Supreme Court on Wednesday hit the NCAA with a full-court press in a case that could decide the future of whether and how student-athletes are compensated.Nearly every justice found fault with the league's strict limitations on how colleges can award educational benefits as they grilled...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

A lot of very interesting questions being asked about double standards.

Head's up that the thread I started on this yesterday has already been locked. It's an interesting topic, no real easy answer.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Presumably undergrads don't spend near the time in the lab vs grad students, that's why their situation is more comparable to athletes. And grad students already have a marketable skill (like athletes do).
The analogy is decent in that students generally pay for college via $ and time; they do this in order to get the best next job. College sports certainly help get that next job in both skills and exposure, the same way that working in a lab might. But again I think potentially contributing to a product or future valuable patent is vastly different than being the current product.

 

[Guapo]

devil's advocate- how does this compare/contrast to undergraduate students working in university STEM programs that assist with research leading to the development of patents? the patent is filed and owned by the school, which can get millions from it, while the undergrads that worked on its development get what? course credit? they certainly don't get a share of the profits....

its common for grad students to be paid by the school.

anyway, that’s not really an apples to apples comp.

What we’re really talking about here is NIL.

There’s nothing stopping a grad student in this situation from making endorsement deals etc.

In theory, they are free to be paid by a Petrie dish company to endorse their product on Instagram etc

 

[prankster]

I have an idea. Let’s create a new system. Call it a minor league system. Kids can elect to go there and play. There can be different levels even. G, GG and GGG. Players can get paid, don’t need to bother with pesky classes, or any of those academic things. They can buy their own meals, find their own housing. They can travel by bus from one garden spot like oh Passaic New Jersey to Akron Ohio, stay in the local Motel 6 and play a game, then get back on the bus for a ride to Muncie Indiana for another then the happy ride back to Jersey. If they are good enough they will eventually get called up to the Knicks or Pacers or somewhere. But in any case they get to live their lifelong dream. Getting paid to play basketball.

And let guys who want to go to college and play for 4 years and “only” get room board and a scholarship plus spending money, fly to games and play in front of thousands on tv stay at decent hotels, get specially prepared meals, gear, AND an education, do that.

Yes the NCAA has some dumb rules. Like most bureaucracies, every time someone does something sleazy the pass another rule until nobody knows exactly what is going on ( this is the planning and zoning board approach to governance) but last I looked not one single college player was forced to go to attend college. So I’m not sure I buy completely all this poor poor pitiful me stuff from the players. Play in the G league. Go to Europe or Turkey or China and play.

I largely agree with this.

If you look at MLB, these things are non issues. Don't want to play college baseball? Go straight to some minor league tryout.

NCAA baseball is virtually unaffected.

The problem seems to be that the NBA and the NFL do not have similar infrastructures. And so, the NCAA serves as their willing partner in the establishment of their de-facto minor league systems.

Were there to be viable avenues for athletes to skip college, and go straight into professional sports (at some minor league level), the NCAA model could revert to providing athletic development for college calibre student athletes.

 

[Onions]

I have an idea. Let’s create a new system. Call it a minor league system. Kids can elect to go there and play. There can be different levels even. G, GG and GGG. Players can get paid, don’t need to bother with pesky classes, or any of those academic things. They can buy their own meals, find their own housing. They can travel by bus from one garden spot like oh Passaic New Jersey to Akron Ohio, stay in the local Motel 6 and play a game, then get back on the bus for a ride to Muncie Indiana for another then the happy ride back to Jersey. If they are good enough they will eventually get called up to the Knicks or Pacers or somewhere. But in any case they get to live their lifelong dream. Getting paid to play basketball.

And let guys who want to go to college and play for 4 years and “only” get room board and a scholarship plus spending money, fly to games and play in front of thousands on tv stay at decent hotels, get specially prepared meals, gear, AND an education, do that.

Yes the NCAA has some dumb rules. Like most bureaucracies, every time someone does something sleazy the pass another rule until nobody knows exactly what is going on ( this is the planning and zoning board approach to governance) but last I looked not one single college player was forced to go to attend college. So I’m not sure I buy completely all this poor poor pitiful me stuff from the players. Play in the G league. Go to Europe or Turkey or China and play.

The NCAA is in business. The product they sell is March Madness. They are in partnership with the Membership Schools who create the opportunity for the Tourney to exist by buying the best young players in the world. The Tourney money is then split between the NCAA and the Schools, leaving the players without a direct stake in that particular pot of gold.

If you think the watered down basketball that would be the result if a true NBA minor league system existed would make enough money for these greedy entities, then you are blowing too much weed.

Most of these kids are not capable at 17, 18 and 19 of negotiating with and/or playing for foreign basketball teams. Some of them have a hard time dealing with Storrs, CT.

I don't see the problem with allowing students athletes to make their own money off the court. It's a restriction no other student faces.

 

[Onions]

I largely agree with this.

If you look at MLB, these things are non issues. Don't want to play college baseball? Go straight to some minor league tryout.

NCAA baseball is virtually unaffected.

The problem seems to be that the NBA and the NFL do not have similar infrastructures. And so, the NCAA serves as their willing partner in the establishment of their de-facto minor league systems.

Were there to be viable avenues for athletes to skip college, and go straight into professional sports (at some minor league level), the NCAA model could revert to providing athletic development for college calibre student athletes.

NCAA baseball is not affected because there is no money in it. "Follow the money."

 

[prankster]

NCAA baseball is not affected because there is no money in it. "Follow the money."

It is my opinion (whether it is correct or not is a different matter) that an NFL or an NBA farm team would not particularly affect the NCAA. And for the following reason.

I am old enough to remember when Stamford, CT had a semi-pro football team. The following that that team had did not even adversely affect ticket sales for the two high school teams in town.

Which is why I feel that no matter how "watered down" the talent may become for the NCAA, (in the wake of these secondary options) the alumni of the Universities, as well as the student bodies, player parents, etc. etc. would still retain their rooting interests, despite whatever array of semi-pro, or farm teams might be taking the field elsewhere.