Still waiting for Griner

[easttexastrash]

I thought Griner would be a much more dominant player in 2016 than she is. In college, Griner was an absolute monster and showed signs of being the Wilt Chamberlain of women's basketball. No one controlled the paint like Griner did. She took an underwhelming team to the Final Four as a rookie, made Baylor a title favorite as a sophomore and the overwhelming title favorite her last 2 seasons. She was the most imposing player in the country all 4 years and significantly improved every year until she graduated. In the pros, she had a relatively underwhelming rookie season but was still very solid. She improved her 2nd year, looked physically stronger and dominated Sylvia Fowles in the Finals. She was a huge part of Phoenix capturing a championship that year and appeared to have a great set up for a monster year in the spotlight taking over the go to role with DT out. What happened? Off the court drama with Glory, and she never fully embraced the go to role for Phoenix in 2015. This resulted in an underwhelming season and she put up solid numbers but didn't breakthrough into being the standout star player most thought she'd become. This year, she appears to have taken a step backward and has lacked any consistency. It appears that players like Ogwumike, Fowles, Stewart, and Charles are all a step ahead of where Griner is, which no one could have foreseen in 2013.

More significantly, look at how she stacks up to where other "best collegiate player ever" caliber players were in their 4th year in the W:
Taurasi-2007, 1st Team All-WNBA, won a title in 2007, regarded as one of the best players in the world
Parker-2011, won a league MVP award, nagged by injuries but was consistently regarded as one of the best players in the world
Moore-2014, won 2 titles, MVP award, regarded as one of the best players in the world
Griner-2016, 13 points, 6 boards per game on a team that is 10-14 and at risk to not make the playoffs. I don't think anyone would put her in the conversation of "best player in the world."

For as heralded and great as she was, she hasn't delivered the goods everyone was expecting her to in the pro game. There's still 1/3 a season to go, but I don't think she'll achieve the accolades that Moore/Parker/Taurasi have.

You seem to overlook that DT, the greatest player on the planet, is also on that 10-14 team. So it's BG's fault that her team is 10-14 and not DT's? This is DT's team and everyone else is just along for the tide.

Oh yeah you also seem to forget that BG won a title her SECOND year in the league and probably would have won one in her third had DT and Taylor not taken a year off.

And you also forget that she has been the DPOY twice.

You must work in an area where cherries are grown because you're doing a great job at cherry picking.

 

[bags27]

You seem to overlook that DT, the greatest player on the planet, is also on that 10-14 team. So it's BG's fault that her team is 10-14 and not DT's? This is DT's team and everyone else is just along for the tide.

Oh you, you also seem to forget that BG won a title her SECOND year in the league and probably would have won one in her third had DT and Taylor not taken a year off.

You must work in an area where cherries are grown because you're doing a great job at cherry picking.

What happened to your handle, "Stay Classy"? Just kidding. You make good points.

 

[Crossover]

Thanks so much for this, Rocky. In fact, I thought that in that entire thread the most affecting comments were offered by Griner:

How does it feel to win gold?
I’m just overwhelmed right now with excitement. I’m just really overwhelmed. I knew I was going to cry, but I didn’t know what moment I was going to cry but when we were standing there and our flag was going up and they played the national anthem, I got teary-eyed. That’s what got me. That’s what choked me up.

Winning a fourth gold medal:
Just to be in the group, just to be able to be on bench and to be able to win gold with players who have won four is just amazing. It’s an honor to be on the court with them, to share the court with them. I’m just super excited right now. I just won my first gold.

This was your first gold medal, what are you going to pass on to the next group of rookies on the team?
No, no, no. I’m not leading. I’m still a baby, and there are definitely women who are ahead of me, and so I’m still learning and we’re just going to keep it going, keep the legacy going and how we conduct ourselves on and off the court, every day in practice, we’re just going to keep it going.

First gold medal, first Olympic – it probably ended the way you would expect it. Tell me what your feeling right now and how excited you are.
I’m overwhelmed with happiness. I got teary-eyed, I started to tear up when they played our national anthem and the flag was going up, that’s when the waterworks came. And, I knew it was, I just won gold and that means everything to me right now. It means everything to me and my family to represent my country and get this. I so excited right now.

Thank you. Superb post.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I thought that Britney played pretty well in Rio, but was a little inconsistent. In Istanbul in 2014, she played better and was often the primary scoring option. I'd like to see her get back to that level and go beyond it. Geno has a good impact on her.

 

[bballnut90]

You seem to overlook that DT, the greatest player on the planet, is also on that 10-14 team. So it's BG's fault that her team is 10-14 and not DT's? This is DT's team and everyone else is just along for the tide.

Oh yeah you also seem to forget that BG won a title her SECOND year in the league and probably would have won one in her third had DT and Taylor not taken a year off.

And you also forget that she has been the DPOY twice.

You must work in an area where cherries are grown because you're doing a great job at cherry picking.

I suggest reading my post a little more thoroughly before responding condescendingly--I never said it was BG's fault that her team is 10-14. I was just stating that she doesn't have outstanding numbers and is playing on a mediocre team. Also, I did acknowledge that she won a championship in her 2nd year and gave her props for her terrific season.

The point I'm trying to convey is she isn't the overwhelmingly dominant player I thought she'd develop into by now. Sure, BG has All-WNBA honors to her credit and did win the 1 title. She's a very good player, but isn't as good as I thought she'd be at this point in her career. In the last 15 years, Taurasi, Parker, Moore, Griner and Stewart are the 5 most heralded players to enter the WNBA coming out of college. All won multiple POY awards, were obvious #1 picks and expected to take the league by storm. For comparison sake, at similar points in their careers (WNBA year 4), Taurasi, Parker, and Moore had emerged as megastars at the next level and each was in the conversation for being the best player in the world. In her 4th year as a pro, I wouldn't say that Griner has established herself as one of the best in the world, and I don't think anyone could make a strong argument that she is. After a very good 2nd season in the W, it doesn't seem like she has improved. She still doesn't rebound aggressively or demand the ball in the post. She doesn't pass well out of double teams. She doesn't post hard and lacks an array of post moves. She's averaging career lows in several statistical categories and her team is having its worst season since BG entered the W. She appears to be completely healthy, so I am unsure why she hasn't developed as expected. Based on expectations coming out of college, I thought she would be a megastar and regular MVP candidate by this point in her career. By year 4 in the WNBA, I'd expect BG to be a better player than she has shown this year. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[Carnac]

If Tina were 6'9, she wouldn't be nearly as athletic as she is. And those size 17 shoes aren't doing any favors for foot speed.

People seem to think Griner should be more athletic than she is? She's a really big girl, a decent athlete for that size, but average athlete overall. That's not a criticism, just pointing out what she's working with.

Needs more time. No biggie.

It's amazing how a "tongue-in-cheek" comment can touch a nerve. Again, I'm a Griner fan, and have been since her Baylor days. The shoe size reference was thrown in with no malice or pun intended. Hopefully I'll get to meet her in person some day. Allow me to share some personal facts. I'm 6'9". I wear a size 16 shoe. I played high school and college BB (on scholarship at a state university in Oklahoma in the 70's) My shoe size NEVER dumb or hindered my athleticism (or performance) one bit. I was a fairly decent shot blocker and rebounder, as I had what you would call "hops". Everybody on the team except for the guards had BIG feet. I was NOT an anomaly.

I was not a plodder. I could not run with the guards, but my motion was smooth and fluid, and I had no trouble traversing the floor, or keeping up with the flow of the game. I know what it's like to play with BIG feet.
My guess is you don't wear a 16 or 17 size shoe. Therefore you can only surmise or guess what it's like to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have to guess. The other center on my college team wore the same size shoe that I did. We had the biggest feet on the team.

We could wear each other's shoes (I had to loan him a pair mine, as he forgot to pack his on a road trip once). We laughed about it, and never really gave serious thought to it. Tall people have BIG feet. That's a fact of life my friend. The next time you see a really tall person, look at their feet, they'll be BIG.

BIG feet go with the frame. I'd look real funny if I wore a size 9 shoe. I received a pair of running shoes for father's day, size 17. They're too big. I've worn them twice. Lot's of room, comfortable, but their slightly too big. So I know what it's like to wear a size 17 shoe. I can speak about size 17's from experience. I'd never chide or make fun of Griner's shoe size. That's been done enough already by her insensitive classmates from junior and senior high school.

Some people just can't run, they're plodders.....period. It has nothing to do with shoe size. I've seen many high school girls that are plodders that don't have big feet. They just can't run. My youngest granddaughter is is in her second year of high school, and plays BB. Naturally, I go to ALL of her games., so I see a lot of other players from other teams. Mavunga (Ohio State) is a BIG that's a plodder. There are others, but she came to mind first. Kiah Stokes is a big (that has big feet) that's not. Kiah runs smoothly and effortlessly on the floor.

Back to my original comment: I think if Tina Charles were 6"9", (shoe size not withstanding), she would DOMINATE the floor on BOTH ends of the court, and her feet would not get in the way.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Didn't Bob Lanier wear like size 20-somethings? I didn't see them slowing him down, if memory serves.

 

[Carnac]

I thought Griner would be a much more dominant player in 2016 than she is. In college, Griner was an absolute monster and showed signs of being the Wilt Chamberlain of women's basketball. No one controlled the paint like Griner did. She took an underwhelming team to the Final Four as a rookie, made Baylor a title favorite as a sophomore and the overwhelming title favorite her last 2 seasons. She was the most imposing player in the country all 4 years and significantly improved every year until she graduated. In the pros, she had a relatively underwhelming rookie season but was still very solid. She improved her 2nd year, looked physically stronger and dominated Sylvia Fowles in the Finals. She was a huge part of Phoenix capturing a championship that year and appeared to have a great set up for a monster year in the spotlight taking over the go to role with DT out. What happened? Off the court drama with Glory, and she never fully embraced the go to role for Phoenix in 2015. This resulted in an underwhelming season and she put up solid numbers but didn't breakthrough into being the standout star player most thought she'd become. This year, she appears to have taken a step backward and has lacked any consistency. It appears that players like Ogwumike, Fowles, Stewart, and Charles are all a step ahead of where Griner is, which no one could have foreseen in 2013.

More significantly, look at how she stacks up to where other "best collegiate player ever" caliber players were in their 4th year in the W:
Taurasi-2007, 1st Team All-WNBA, won a title in 2007, regarded as one of the best players in the world
Parker-2011, won a league MVP award, nagged by injuries but was consistently regarded as one of the best players in the world
Moore-2014, won 2 titles, MVP award, regarded as one of the best players in the world
Griner-2016, 13 points, 6 boards per game on a team that is 10-14 and at risk to not make the playoffs. I don't think anyone would put her in the conversation of "best player in the world."

For as heralded and great as she was, she hasn't delivered the goods everyone was expecting her to in the pro game. There's still 1/3 a season to go, but I don't think she'll achieve the accolades that Moore/Parker/Taurasi have.

Don't expect too many likes in reference to this comment. I'll give you one. I agree with your take. Sometimes, if you call a spade a spade, this will happen. After all, we're all welcome to our opinions. Again, I like Griner a lot, but I agree with your assessment of her performance to date. I'm hoping she improves her game in the near future. I'm hoping she took something away from the 28 days she spent with Geno and the other USA coaches.

 

[Carnac]

Didn't Bob Lanier wear like size 20-somethings? I didn't see them slowing him down, if memory serves.

Yes. Bob Lainer was the proud owner of a pair of 22's.

According to the official Shaquille O'Neal website, Shaquille O'Neal wears a U.S. size 23 shoe, which would fit feet almost 15 inches long. BIG people have BIG feet.

What size shoe does Shaq wear?

 

[MilfordHusky]

Yes. Bob Lainer was the proud owner of a pair of 22's.

According to the official Shaquille O'Neal website, Shaquille O'Neal wears a U.S. size 23 shoe, which would fit feet almost 15 inches long. BIG people have BIG feet.

What size shoe does Shaq wear?

It's hard to say without a ruler next to them, but they are BIG. Maybe a yardstick would be better.

 

[JordyG]

Some here seem a bit hard on Griner. But really, what about Fowles? Over the course of the 7 games they played (not including exhibitions) she showed poor hands, poor offensive and defensive footwork, poor inside shooting, no outside shot, and the inability to stay out of foul trouble. She did show a good attitude, played hard, and looked imposing. As poor as Griner appeared to play there was a reason Geno continued to insert her over Fowles.

 

[easttexastrash]

Don't expect too many likes in reference to this comment. I'll give you one. I agree with your take. Sometimes, if you call a spade a spade, this will happen. After all, we're all welcome to our opinions. Again, I like Griner a lot, but I agree with your assessment of her performance to date. I'm hoping she improves her game in the near future. I'm hoping she took something away from the 28 days she spent with Geno and the other USA coaches.

Can we send Geno to Phoenix to coach Brondello on how to coach BG?

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Can we send Geno to Phoenix to coach Brondello on how to coach BG?

They had the Guru of Go, and let him. Their loss.

 

[Carnac]

It's hard to say without a ruler next to them, but they are BIG. Maybe a yardstick would be better.

There's no way you could put these on and ask your wife or girlfriend: "Honey, these shoes don't make my feet look big do they?" There's no way or angle you could turn these that could not make them look BIG. I'll bet Lanier got his feet stepped on a lot.

 

[baggerbob]

There's no way you could put these on and ask your wife or girlfriend: "Honey, these shoes don't make my feet look big do they?" There's no way or angle you could turn these that could not make them look BIG. I'll bet Lanier got his feet stepped on a lot.

A big man who could shoot, had a 15 foot jump shot, and could shoot a hook shot with either hand.

 

[hoopingcrane]

Didn't Bob Lanier wear like size 20-somethings? I didn't see them slowing him down, if memory serves.

A 5'8' friend of mine showed up at St. Bonaventure College freshman year to find that his roommate's bed had a two foot extension on it. The roommate turned out to be Bob Lanier who soon informed my friend that he needed more room than was available if he had to share with him. Size 22's, indeed.

 

[CocoHusky]

I suggest reading my post a little more thoroughly before responding condescendingly--I never said it was BG's fault that her team is 10-14. I was just stating that she doesn't have outstanding numbers and is playing on a mediocre team. Also, I did acknowledge that she won a championship in her 2nd year and gave her props for her terrific season.

The point I'm trying to convey is she isn't the overwhelmingly dominant player I thought she'd develop into by now. Sure, BG has All-WNBA honors to her credit and did win the 1 title. She's a very good player, but isn't as good as I thought she'd be at this point in her career. In the last 15 years, Taurasi, Parker, Moore, Griner and Stewart are the 5 most heralded players to enter the WNBA coming out of college. All won multiple POY awards, were obvious #1 picks and expected to take the league by storm. For comparison sake, at similar points in their careers (WNBA year 4), Taurasi, Parker, and Moore had emerged as megastars at the next level and each was in the conversation for being the best player in the world. In her 4th year as a pro, I wouldn't say that Griner has established herself as one of the best in the world, and I don't think anyone could make a strong argument that she is. After a very good 2nd season in the W, it doesn't seem like she has improved. She still doesn't rebound aggressively or demand the ball in the post. She doesn't pass well out of double teams. She doesn't post hard and lacks an array of post moves. She's averaging career lows in several statistical categories and her team is having its worst season since BG entered the W. She appears to be completely healthy, so I am unsure why she hasn't developed as expected. Based on expectations coming out of college, I thought she would be a megastar and regular MVP candidate by this point in her career. By year 4 in the WNBA, I'd expect BG to be a better player than she has shown this year. That's the point I was trying to make.

Maybe you expected too much. She is having a sub-par WNBA year. She did go to UCONN-shame on her, but it seems like she maximizing her time developing under Geno since then. Maybe she should be dunking once per game, because she can? Since you brought it up, if you compare Tina's, Candace's and Brittney's WNBA accomplishments that ring that Brittney is wearing sticks out like a sore thumb!

Griner WNBA accomplishments:

• WNBA champion (2014)
• 3× WNBA All-Star (2013–2015)
• 2× WNBA blocks leader (2013, 2014)
• All-WNBA First Team (2014)
• All-WNBA Second Team (2015)
• 2× WNBA Defensive Player of the Year Award (2014, 2015)

Tina Charles WNBA accomplishments

• WNBA Most Valuable Player (2012)
• WNBA Rookie of the Year (2010)
• 4× WNBA All-Star (2011, 2013–2015)
• 3× All-WNBA First Team (2011, 2012, 2015)
• 3× All-WNBA Second Team (2010, 2013, 2014)
• 3× WNBA rebounding champion (2010–2012)

Candace Parker's WNBA Accomplishments

• 2× WNBA MVP (2008, 2013)
• WNBA Rookie of the Year (2008)
• WNBA All-Rookie Team (2008)
• 4× All-WNBA First Team (2008, 2012–2014)
• 2× All-WNBA Second Team (2009, 2015)
• 2×All-Defensive Second Team (2009, 2012)
• 3× WNBA All-Star (2011, 2013, 2014)
• WNBA All-Star MVP (2013)
• 2× WNBA Rebounding Champion (2008, 2009)

 

[easttexastrash]

Nice game for BG tonight against Indy: 20 points on 8-12 shooting from the field, 7 rebounds and 4 blocks. She was also terrific defensively in the paint, cutting off the path to the basket by the Indy guards. She was very aggressive to the basket and also showed nice touch on a couple of shots.

 

[mhshuskies]

Griner sucks. Pure and simple.

harsh

 

[alexrgct]

Hmm...BG did enough in Olympics during one game that Geno was ecstatic and high-fived her during a timeout. Certainly, people have every right to critique anyone's game, but when a player earns that reaction, there's not much to be waiting for. Some things have already very much arrived.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Yes...BG is often a defensive force that can change the entire offensive strategy of the opposition. But not as often as should be the case. Yes...she has a nice touch close in. But her reportroire is limited.

Watching her play over the past two weeks only seems to suggest that she's about the same in overall ability as she was in college.

Where's a hook shot ? Where's the left hand ? Where's the perimeter shot ? Where's the pick and roll, occasional dribbling, running the floor, and passes to open teammates ?

IMO, she was the third best center on Team USA. Four years ago the sports media tripped all over itself in searching for superlatives, as they relentlessly touted her as the most dominant female player ever. Not even close.

I wasn't a Griner "liker" more of a "dis-liker". Her performance and personal conduct during the Olympics made me a fan. I will --respectfully disagree--in that she has the "same" overall ability as in college.
In college she did a bit more "flying" at an attacker, now she seems to make better judgements. The most improved aspect of her game is the--6 to 12 foot shots from nearly any angle --at times during the games those shots were pushing 100 percent. She was never that effective except with layups in college.
I won't argue the other comments you made about her game--because my perception is much different.
As I said --I've become a Griner fan. One thing that stood out in my viewing the Olympics is how she hung on every word Geno and DT spoke--goes to prove how smart that woman really has become!!!

 

[easttexastrash]

A little good press for BG.

Brittney Griner Collects Hundreds of Shoes for Phoenix Homeless - Phoenix Mercury

 

[BroadwayVa]

Well then I guess Tina was not properly developed in college - since she improved so much after leaving...

BTW my comment was NOT meant for you - I generally agree with what you said, but wanted to simply point out that there are many UCONN players who have gotten much fitter, stronger, or better since leaving UCONN. I do
agree that Geno and co. are the best coaches in the nation, but to imply that "Player X" would have been "so much better had she gone to UCONN..." often is just not true. Additionally, there are many examples of UCONN products getting significantly better AFTER leaving UCONN, and I don't hear fans blasting Geno as "not getting the most out of them", or "not developing them"...

Eric--I know I'm stupid to even attempt to disagree with you-because I respect your postings. But let me ask this question--no facts, no data, just my visual judgement. I know there are certain players Geno does not take because they are apparently --not coach-able-. But do you really think --Geno couldn't make a coach-able player better (like some that don't come to Uconn) than the coaches they went to?? (I can think of one right away--)I suppose we shall see when Azura takes the floor!!\

Also, I'm sure you know that players from any teams, if smart and want to keep the dollars flowing--will do everything necessary to get better as a pro and stronger(different motivation)-also much of that comes with age at least to age 36, it did with me.

Geno wasn't "blasted" but he by inference took a few punches relative to Charde and Stokes

I respect your knowledge and access to data ---you notice I don't argue specifics just impression.

 

[BroadwayVa]

FYI, I think Griner is incredibly quick for her size. I've seen her put the ball on the court and absolutely whip around anyone guarding her. In spite of her huge feet, she has quick feet, as opposed to the incredibly athletic Maya, who has a plodding first step due to her "slow" feet.

And for the record, Geno's the one who said Maya has slow feet. I'm NOT saying she lacks physical gifts. She's exceptional in almost every way - but her first step is slow. Hence Geno's comment that she has slow feet...

But back to Griner - to also echo CL82, she seems like a great kid with a funny and goofy side, who's getting really comfortable in her own skin, who has a great relationship with her teammates (Dee especially) and coaches (Geno especially), and who will continue to work hard on improving her game. She did, after all, EARN a starting role on the team.

\

There was a game or two in the prelim round that I thought --without Griner USA loses--the Aussies was one.
As I said in another posting--I've become a fan. I really was impressed by how she interacted with the team and hung on the words of DT and Geno--smart woman.

 

[easttexastrash]

For those waiting for Griner I hope you tuned into the first half of the Phoenix vs. Connecticut game. She was dominant with 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block and good defense in the lane as well as when she had to switch on small players.

In the words of Mulkey, "Pass it to Griner."

Her time with Geno may have saved her career.

 

[easttexastrash]

Griner with a career high of 29 points tonight on 10-15 shooting from the floor, including a dunk on a pick-and-roll, and 9-11 from the FT line.

Blueconn, I hope you got to see the game. She scored in every way that you listed in the original post (strong to the basket, several hooks, several soft shots from the perimeter), except for the left hand, although we will trade the dunk for the left handed shot.

 

[Plebe]

Griner with a career high of 29 points tonight on 10-15 shooting from the floor, including a dunk on a pick-and-roll, and 9-11 from the FT line.

Blueconn, I hope you got to see the game.

Didn't see the game, but what a stat line for Griner. Too bad Diana pulled a Griner (ha) and barely showed up. Phoenix needs them both.

 

[easttexastrash]

Didn't see the game, but what a stat line for Griner. Too bad Diana pulled a Griner (ha) and barely showed up. Phoenix needs them both.

Phoenix had 23 TOs and the guards still cannot keep the opposing guards from zipping by them and getting to the basket. Phoenix should have kept Courtney Williams. She still needs some more experience but she can flat out play the game. I am a big fan of hers. Whomever Phoenix got in that trade has not proven to be as good as Williams is proving to be.

 

[MarieYLee]

Phoenix had 23 TOs and the guards still cannot keep the opposing guards from zipping by them and getting to the basket. Phoenix should have kept Courtney Williams. She still needs some more experience but she can flat out play the game. I am a big fan of hers. Whomever Phoenix got in that trade has not proven to be as good as Williams is proving to be.

Kelsey Bone...

Everyone thought Conn got hosed in the trade, and Conn also gets the right to Jillian Alleyne, who I think, at worst should be a servicable back up post. I know Bone requested a trade, but she had to know she wasn't going to get a lot of playing time playing behind Griner/Dupree. I actually think San Antonio should go after Bone in a trade. She would be an upgrade over Appel and whoever they have at the 5.

 

[easttexastrash]

Kelsey Bone...

Everyone thought Conn got hosed in the trade, and Conn also gets the right to Jillian Alleyne, who I think, at worst should be a servicable back up post. I know Bone requested a trade, but she had to know she wasn't going to get a lot of playing time playing behind Griner/Dupree. I actually think San Antonio should go after Bone in a trade. She would be an upgrade over Appel and whoever they have at the 5.

That is actually a good idea. Phoenix could use a PG and Robinson would be a good fit in Phoenix. Let's pick up the phone and make it happen!