Still great, but overrated athletes | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Still great, but overrated athletes

Lafayette said:
Ryan - still has the record for most KOs in a season (1973, 383) - also with 7 no hitters. Compiler for all time KOs (yes, still owns that record) but usually on terrible teams. When a Yankees legend like Reggie Jackson admits he was afraid of Ryan because he could kill you, that is high praise. Norm Cash trying to bat with a table leg speaks to Ryan's ability to KO anyone. No one says he's among the best pitchers ever, but in the next tier, he is tops.

Jeter - post season compiler for sure - playoffs expanded when the Yankees cruised. Wasn't even the best SS in the AL (Tejada). 3 rounds of 7 games is exactly why he got more ABs, H, HRs, etc. than guys like Mantle, Mays, etc. Limited range at SS, but really good players, but generally his "legend" is > his game.
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The Jeter one is said so often and is so silly that he's probably underrated at this point. No, Miguel Tejada wasn't better than Jeter despite juicing his entire career.
 
superjohn said:
The Jeter one is said so often and is so silly that he's probably underrated at this point. No, Miguel Tejada wasn't better than Jeter despite juicing his entire career.
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Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
 
RuffRuff said:
Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
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Good point. I feel the same about Peyton manning. Even though his numbers were there the one intangible is what vaults him over nearly everyone: his ability to make entire coaching staffs look foolish. Jeter's intangibles are pretty tangible.

Somewhat unrelated but have you heard the goose gossage interview where he calls Mariano, among others, garbage? When asked what he's up to these days he said :"burning bridges"
 
RuffRuff said:
Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
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Agreed but I could understand his detractors a lot more if he was all just intangibles/winning/leadership without the numbers. The dude raked for 15+ straight years.
 
RuffRuff said:
Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
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We’ve seen plenty of examples of players who wilted when playing for the Yankees. While Jeter’s numbers weren’t off the charts astounding, he consistently did well for 20 years in a market where the fans and media will turn on you in a heartbeat. It’s a pressure cooker of expectations that no other team has to experience and IMO that should account for something which is why I’d never call him overrated.
 
StllH8L8ner said:
We’ve seen plenty of examples of players who wilted when playing for the Yankees. While Jeter’s numbers weren’t off the charts astounding, he consistently did well for 20 years in a market where the fans and media will turn on you in a heartbeat. It’s a pressure cooker of expectations that no other team has to experience and IMO that should account for something which is why I’d never call him overrated.
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As a huge Rays fan, you can guess my feeling about the yanks. But Since he left They have been trying to, not only find the next great yankee short stop, but also the next great leader. As great a person and player as Judge is, there isn't any Jeter in him. (I've heard a few yankee fans last year saying how they found their next Jeter in Volpe. Just desperate)
 
RuffRuff said:
Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
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And the first post on the topic is.....the intangibles. LOL
 
StllH8L8ner said:
We’ve seen plenty of examples of players who wilted when playing for the Yankees. While Jeter’s numbers weren’t off the charts astounding, he consistently did well for 20 years in a market where the fans and media will turn on you in a heartbeat. It’s a pressure cooker of expectations that no other team has to experience and IMO that should account for something which is why I’d never call him overrated.
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Agreed. Consistently did very well on top of a dynasty HOF riddled lineup. Stayed healthy his entire career.
 
Jaydumo20 said:
As a huge Rays fan, you can guess my feeling about the yanks. But Since he left They have been trying to, not only find the next great yankee short stop, but also the next great leader. As great a person and player as Judge is, there isn't any Jeter in him. (I've heard a few yankee fans last year saying how they found their next Jeter in Volpe. Just desperate)
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Take Judge for example. Pouring on the stats, but doesn’t have nearly the NY swag or aura of a leader in that market for that franchise. There are just some players that exude winning and it’s contagious. Buster Posey had that for SF.
 
Iron Mike Tyson.

I love Mike Tyson and he is a big reason I am the boxing fan that I am today, but I hear far too often his name brought up as being the best heavyweight of all time. He was great in his prime, a very short prime, and had the skills to potentially become the all time great he is often mentioned as but when you look at his career as whole it is actually a little disappointing considering his ferocious start. Mike is probably a top 15 heavyweight of all time, closer to the 15 mark than top 10 by a pretty wide margin IMO.
 
superjohn said:
The Jeter one is said so often and is so silly that he's probably underrated at this point. No, Miguel Tejada wasn't better than Jeter despite juicing his entire career.
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So now Jeter is underrated? Really?

Good luck coming up with any MLB player in history more overrated on defense (lifetime -8.3 defensive WAR). Yet despite having limited range and a below average arm he somehow managed to win 5 Gold Gloves.

No doubt he compiled great career offensive numbers from being a good-to-great hitter over a long healthy career, but the fact that he had a grand total of 20 homers and 61 RBIs in 158 career playoff games is telling. Yes, he had more than his share of highlight moments when the Yankees won it all, but he also had plenty of forgettable ones when they lost. He is the epitome of "great but still overrated."
 
OK my bad to bring up Jeter - hornets nest of NY fans etc.

Now onto some fresh names for this - can be great by legacy is greater kinda vibe:

1. David Thompson - known as Skywalker, but the legacy eclipsed his actual playing stats - this one can go either way
2. Pierre-Luc Dubois
3. Andy Murray
4. Ilie Nastase (kuddos for being a Romanian pro player in the US) - but temper and relatively short ('72-'73) accomplishments show more lore than talent shown
5. David Wells (yes, I dare bring up another Yankee) - had 20 wins all of once with a 4.11 ERA - generally given way too much credit for wins, but when you play for the Yankees you get run support so ERA is ignored. With Toronto had a 3.14 ERA one year and had 11 wins.
 
RuffRuff said:
Take Judge for example. Pouring on the stats, but doesn’t have nearly the NY swag or aura of a leader in that market for that franchise. There are just some players that exude winning and it’s contagious. Buster Posey had that for SF.
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The intangible thing keeps coming up in this thread. I lean towards your viewpoint. Great call with Buster, BTW. Also, our favorite son Cam Spencer brainwashes coaches and fans because of his intangibles.

Also: the phrase "he lost the locker room" is overused because it's true. You can have a team of outstanding talent but if there is no leader or emotional center then things can go haywire. We as fans never know because they don't let us into those situations.
 
superjohn said:
Who are all these Hall of Famers in the lineup when Jeter won those 5 World Series?

I've got Rock Raines and Boggs at the end of their careers on the '96 team and ARod on the 2009 team.
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Off the top of my head? Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, CC Sabathia and Ichiro. Not sure what years or if they were on WS teams without looking...

Arguably? Posada, Bernie Williams, Clemens, Mike Mussina. I believe Dave Justice was no slouch and he was on some of those teams. Soriano? Strawberry? Maybe not inducted in or maybe not that close? But certainly better than what other lineups put out there, by a lot.
 
It’s fair to knock Jeter for his poor defense. He 100% should have moved to third instead of ARod. But you can’t deny the effect he had on rejuvenating the Yanks.
 
RuffRuff said:
Sometimes you just can’t overlook intangibles. To this day, when Jeter speaks, like EF Hutton, I listen. I would consider him a top 5 leader in all sports in my lifetime, especially in non QB roles. Those Yankee teams did all the little things well, and I’d be shocked if culturally it didn’t all start with Jeter in the clubhouse.

And I’m a Mets fan.
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Of the many many things about Jeter that are overrated - his leadership may be the most. He was a cheerleader, but not a leader. He never confronted a teammate who wasn't hustling (like Cano) and he didn't have his teammates' backs (like ARod). Jeter was just everyone's buddy. That's not leadership. Jorge Posada was the true leader of that team, and when guys were not pulling their weight, that is who they would hear from. Also, a true leader would have put his team first and moved to LF where he belonged. Instead he insisted on playing SS while the guy they made move to 3B was a much better fielding SS than Jeter.
 
Deepster said:
Off the top of my head? Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, CC Sabathia and Ichiro. Not sure what years or if they were on WS teams without looking...

Arguably? Posada, Bernie Williams, Clemens, Mike Mussina. I believe Dave Justice was no slouch and he was on some of those teams. Soriano? Strawberry? Maybe not inducted in or maybe not that close? But certainly better than what other lineups put out there, by a lot.
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I thought you were talking about the lineup because you said Jeter did very well on top of a dynasty Hall of Fame lineup.

Yes. Clemens, Mariano, and Sabathia are Hall of Famers. Yes, Ichiro was in the lineup at around 39 years old and never won a World Series. Mussina is a Hall of Famer but never won a World Series. None of those other guys are Hall of Famers.
 
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