Stewie Will She Be the Best Ever?

[hoophuskee]

But who from Uconn can say they win 4 NC other than Stewie and these senior class?
I love DT's heart and determination but 0 for 11 shooting and blew an 18 points lead at the half against ND??? Mean while here's Stewie put a dagger in Diggins's face with a barrage of dazzling plays during her frosh??
Not only can Stewie play in any position but she is the best defender of all time that ever played in WCBB. Don't tell me DT can top that!

1-- What happens if they don't win this year? Then it is 3 vs 3, right?

2-- No way the best defender ever. Noooooo waaaaaaaaayyyyy.

 

[cbraarj]

Diana the best player of all time.NC in 2003 and 2004 have never been won like that either before or after.Only AA for both teams!

 

[Phillyconn]

I thought Stewie put the team on her back during NCAA's her frosh year. ND during crunch time was always able to prevent KML from getting off a significant number of good shots and Dolson was not much of a scorer and Hartley was hurt/struggled during her jr year. And it's tough to knock Stewie about putting team on her back. She did average 19.5 points and 8 rebounds in her soph year final four with no one coming close to beating them in FF.

Just a comparison of Maya's frosh year her efg% in ff was 50%. Stewie's EFG% was 72.58%. For True Field Goal %, BS was 73.4% vs Maya at 51.4%.

And as for DT vs Maya - they are sort of opposite. DT came to a powerhouse. Maya was rebuilding toward a powerhouse. While UCONN hadn't been in FF in 3 years before Maya - after DT left - they had arguably their worst year they have had in their past 20 years or maybe 25 or maybe even longer. The next year they didn't make ff either and had to hit a last second shot to get to E8. When Maya came she had an upperclass pg who ended up being one of the great pg's in UCONN history and did have a 3rd team a/a in Tina Charles. So before Maya came her team was already E8 without her, while DT's team "crumbled" to S16 and among the worst UOONN had in 20+ years looking back from now once she left. So it's all how you look at it.

Right now I give very very very slight edge to DT over Maya. I'd rather not mention full reason - but minor reason is that I thought DT had less to work with in her final 2 years. And I thought in her soph year she was arguably the best player on the team and was only limited by minutes her frosh year. For Stewie and Maya as frosh the respective teams needed them to be big scorers. With DT they didn't need her as much until both a/a's went down. Maya as a frosh would have been coming off the bench on that 2001 team just like DT was. I won't argue though with anyone that says Maya. IMO they are so close. You say Maya over DT- I'm okay with it. They were both sensational.

As for BS- imo the grade is "incomplete" with her vs Maya and DT and until after the season.

You say DT was the only AA on her team. Maya, had AA's on her team, right? She became the all time leading scorer on a team that had other great players. Imagine the numbers, if she had none. Also, if Stewie had less help, she would put up astronomical numbers. Can't control who's on your team. Can't control the level of competition. DT never had to go against Griner, Diggins or Parker. The only real rival back then was Tennessee, I think.

 

[CocoHusky]

1-- What happens if they don't win this year? Then it is 3 vs 3, right?

2-- No way the best defender ever. Noooooo waaaaaaaaayyyyy.

If Stewie was not the best defender of all time then who was? Keep in mind Brittney Griner did not and could not defend on the perimeter.

 

[Hongster]

1-- What happens if they don't win this year? Then it is 3 vs 3, right?

2-- No way the best defender ever. Noooooo waaaaaaaaayyyyy.

Even if it's 3 vs 3 the edge go to Stewie because of her ultimate defense.

And, yes way.....

 

[bballnut90]

I thought Stewie put the team on her back during NCAA's her frosh year. ND during crunch time was always able to prevent KML from getting off a significant number of good shots and Dolson was not much of a scorer and Hartley was hurt/struggled during her jr year. And it's tough to knock Stewie about putting team on her back. She did average 19.5 points and 8 rebounds in her soph year final four with no one coming close to beating them in FF.

Just a comparison of Maya's frosh year her efg% in ff was 50%. Stewie's EFG% was 72.58%. For True Field Goal %, BS was 73.4% vs Maya at 51.4%.

And as for DT vs Maya - they are sort of opposite. DT came to a powerhouse. Maya was rebuilding toward a powerhouse. While UCONN hadn't been in FF in 3 years before Maya - after DT left - they had arguably their worst year they have had in their past 20 years or maybe 25 or maybe even longer. The next year they didn't make ff either and had to hit a last second shot to get to E8. When Maya came she had an upperclass pg who ended up being one of the great pg's in UCONN history and did have a 3rd team a/a in Tina Charles. So before Maya came her team was already E8 without her, while DT's team "crumbled" to S16 and among the worst UOONN had in 20+ years looking back from now once she left. So it's all how you look at it.

Right now I give very very very slight edge to DT over Maya. I'd rather not mention full reason - but minor reason is that I thought DT had less to work with in her final 2 years. And I thought in her soph year she was arguably the best player on the team and was only limited by minutes her frosh year. For Stewie and Maya as frosh the respective teams needed them to be big scorers. With DT they didn't need her as much until both a/a's went down. Maya as a frosh would have been coming off the bench on that 2001 team just like DT was. I won't argue though with anyone that says Maya. IMO they are so close. You say Maya over DT- I'm okay with it. They were both sensational.

As for BS- imo the grade is "incomplete" with her vs Maya and DT and until after the season.

I agree that it is hard to knock Stewart for having such outstanding teammates. I don't hold that against her as much as I give credit to Moore for being the standout player every season and for proving herself in both close games and blowouts, where Stewart has played in very few close games.

The biggest reason why I think Moore earns the distinction of being UCONN's best player ever is that she came in an Olympic caliber player from day 1 and dominated all 4 years. Her, Holdsclaw and Parker are the only players I've ever seen come in so polished. All were clearly far ahead of anyone in college basketball in their skill set and they played at a high level so consistently from day 1. Even in UCONN losses, Maya never really had a bad game (Stanford in 2010 maybe) and every night out you knew what you'd get, and that would be an outstanding POY worthy performance.

Taurasi and Stewart were inconsistent as freshman. Taurasi had moments where she looked out of control, took bad shots, made dumb decisions, etc. and Stewart looked rail thin and lacked confidence aside from having a really unique skill set for someone her size. Moore was one of the 2 best players in the country as a freshman.

What Taurasi and Stewart have are great narratives: they fought through some struggles and adversity to come out as champions. Moore never faced any struggle or adversity, she was gang busting and dominant from day 1 and never let her foot off the gas all 4 years. I think if UConn won it all in 2011, she would be widely viewed as UCONN's best of all time. The 2011 loss is a perfect example of how basketball is a team sport, she ran into a red hot Notre Dame and Skylar Diggins and got very little support from her young teammates that night.

 

[Hongster]

Maya is great but not ahead of DT and Stewie.
To counter Diggins stone cold face you need an unconscious fierce-less Stewie. Stewie is the anecdote against Diggins's and ND poison.
Ask any ND fan who they hate (fierce, nightmare) the most. It's Stewie, Stewie is the GOAT!

 

[hoophuskee]

You say DT was the only AA on her team. Maya, had AA's on her team, right? She became the all time leading scorer on a team that had other great players. Imagine the numbers, if she had none. Also, if Stewie had less help, she would put up astronomical numbers. Can't control who's on your team. Can't control the level of competition. DT never had to go against Griner, Diggins or Parker. The only real rival back then was Tennessee, I think.

1- Don't think this matters but in case if further discussions evolve- I didn't say TD had no other A/A's on her team. I said Maya had a better cast.

2a-- You mention "numbers." First off if she didn't have the teammates then her numbers would have been more spectacular. Sure she is an amazing player. I agree but this isn't baseball. Bill Russell's offensive numbers are pedestrian at best.

2b- In terms of "numbers" - she could have probably put the scoring off the charts however - so what? In her sr season vs for example she was 5-15 from the floor vs Stanford in which UCONN lost. In her jr year vs Notre Dame she was 4-13 from the floor in one game while Tina Charles was 7-11 from the floor with 16 points and had 17 rebounds. In 08-09 Maya was 3-9 from the floor vs RU, 0-5 from 3. Renee Montgomery had 23 points 8-14 from the floor and 7-12 from 3. So yes she could have scored a lot more - but so what?

3-- Again you want to say Maya okay. I'm okay with it. You're right Maya can't control who her estimates were. Nor her competition. But neither could DT. It goes both ways. And Maya never played against Parker. Not sure why you mentioned her? As far as Diggins - even though UCONN lost to ND in FF- not sure of the relevance. Maya was always far superior to Diggins senior vs frosh. DT would have been the same too. You're not putting Diggins on the Maya/DT pedestal are you? Or are you mentioning Diggins because she as 1-4 vs Maya then she was 3-4 for vs Stewart? I think it would be worng to look at it that way. Diggins is not in the tier of Maya or DT imo so she shouldn't be mentioned at all in this conversation.

 

[hoophuskee]

I agree that it is hard to knock Stewart for having such outstanding teammates. I don't hold that against her as much as I give credit to Moore for being the standout player every season and for proving herself in both close games and blowouts, where Stewart has played in very few close games.

The biggest reason why I think Moore earns the distinction of being UCONN's best player ever is that she came in an Olympic caliber player from day 1 and dominated all 4 years. Her, Holdsclaw and Parker are the only players I've ever seen come in so polished. All were clearly far ahead of anyone in college basketball in their skill set and they played at a high level so consistently from day 1. Even in UCONN losses, Maya never really had a bad game (Stanford in 2010 maybe) and every night out you knew what you'd get, and that would be an outstanding POY worthy performance.

Taurasi and Stewart were inconsistent as freshman. Taurasi had moments where she looked out of control, took bad shots, made dumb decisions, etc. and Stewart looked rail thin and lacked confidence aside from having a really unique skill set for someone her size. Moore was one of the 2 best players in the country as a freshman.

What Taurasi and Stewart have are great narratives: they fought through some struggles and adversity to come out as champions. Moore never faced any struggle or adversity, she was gang busting and dominant from day 1 and never let her foot off the gas all 4 years. I think if UConn won it all in 2011, she would be widely viewed as UCONN's best of all time. The 2011 loss is a perfect example of how basketball is a team sport, she ran into a red hot Notre Dame and Skylar Diggins and got very little support from her young teammates that night.

1-- Both Maya and Stewart are scorers. When Maya was a frosh she had two point guards in Monty and Ketia Swanier. Swanier went on to play in the WNBA for a few years. Stewie's pg was Bria Hartley who was hurt all year- didn't help Stewie in the big games.

2-- You can say I am mistaken or call it bull.... but I specifically remember - I wish I could find it on the internet that Chris Dailey admitted they didn't coach Stewie properly (there is a better word for this. Don't know what to use though.) early on. Stewart had to be coached differently. I remember Daily specifically saying /or reading "My fault . . . My fault . . . " near the end of the year. So if you don't hold the sr Maya at fault for her teammates not producing (which they didn't produce and the calls went against Dolson . . . I agree! Not Maya's fault.). Why hold Stewie at fault for the coaching staff not using her correctly right from the start? To be fair, imo they probably thought Hartley would have bounced back from her ankle injury which she hurt just before the season and therefore didn't need Stewie to be a force/ ie build the offense around her. Hartley only started playing better very late if I recall. Heck she even asked to be sent to the bench.

I know this doesn't change your or other's mind. If you don't hear it or read it about CD aying "her fault" etc- you can be skeptical of the context etc. Maybe she was just covering . . . Just offering another pov which I believe and understand completely those that are skeptical. Maya was amazing. Amazing. Put her number 1, no real fight from me. As you say Maya was gangbusters right from the start. I do value her bulldog mentality the 1st moment she stepped on the floor. I still have a knock on Stewie like you for her frosh play regardless of title. Let's take it to another level, if a player were to play like a dog for the whole year and been an awful teammate, her team finishes in last, but she becomes revitalized at end of year - they win their tourney, get an at-large birth, go on to win the championship - and here you have Maya who was super supreme throughout, and even in the game she lost she was super, does this mean the other player had the superior year? I love Amazing Maya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Her ability to score and her effort and bulldog relentless determination from day one was un-un-paralleled.

3-- Why do you think UCONN lost in 2011 vs Notre Dame and how do you think DT would have played the game differently?

 

[bballnut90]

1-- Both Maya and Stewart are scorers. When Maya was a frosh she had two point guards in Monty and Ketia Swanier. Swanier went on to play in the WNBA for a few years. Stewie's pg was Bria Hartley who was hurt all year- didn't help Stewie in the big games.

2-- You can say I am mistaken or call it bull.... but I specifically remember - I wish I could find it on the internet that Chris Dailey admitted they didn't coach Stewie properly (there is a better word for this. Don't know what to use though.) early on. Stewart had to be coached differently. I remember Daily specifically saying /or reading "My fault . . . My fault . . . " near the end of the year. So if you don't hold the sr Maya at fault for her teammates not producing (which they didn't produce and the calls went against Dolson . . . I agree! Not Maya's fault.). Why hold Stewie at fault for the coaching staff not using her correctly right from the start? To be fair, imo they probably thought Hartley would have bounced back from her ankle injury which she hurt just before the season and therefore didn't need Stewie to be a force/ ie build the offense around her. Hartley only started playing better very late if I recall. Heck she even asked to be sent to the bench.

I know this doesn't change your or other's mind. If you don't hear it or read it about CD aying "her fault" etc- you can be skeptical of the context etc. Maybe she was just covering . . . Just offering another pov which I believe and understand completely those that are skeptical. Maya was amazing. Amazing. Put her number 1, no real fight from me. As you say Maya was gangbusters right from the start. I do value her bulldog mentality the 1st moment she stepped on the floor. I still have a knock on Stewie like you for her frosh play regardless of title. Let's take it to another level, if a player were to play like a dog for the whole year and been an awful teammate, her team finishes in last, but she becomes revitalized at end of year - they win their tourney, get an at-large birth, go on to win the championship - and here you have Maya who was super supreme throughout, and even in the game she lost she was super, does this mean the other player had the superior year? I love Amazing Maya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Her ability to score and her effort and bulldog relentless determination from day one was un-un-paralleled.

3-- Why do you think UCONN lost in 2011 vs Notre Dame and how do you think DT would have played the game differently?

I'd take the player who had the better season over the player who won the title with just moments of greatness throughout the year. From a team perspective, 2013 was a better year than 2011 because they won a title and overcame their Notre Dame demons in the Final Four. But from an individual season standpoint, Maya's was far and away better even without a title to her credit.

In regards to why UCONN lost in 2011 to ND, they lost because Notre Dame's offense was outstanding that night and they couldn't stop Skylar Diggins. I don't think DT changes that. If DT was in the lineup in 2011 instead of Moore...Uconn would've been a very different team. I don't think DT gets 30 shots like Moore did. In hindsight, since Notre Dame won, it could have helped to have a DT like presence in the lineup. On the flip side, I'm not sure UCONN comes back against Georgetown in the Sweet 16 with a DT instead of a Moore, and I think you can make a strong argument that UCONN doesn't come back and knock off Stanford in 2010 with DT in the lineup in place of Moore, so I don't find it a compelling argument to play the "what if xx player was in the lineup instead of this player?" game since it's purely hypothetical, although I find it interesting to think about. I don't know if that's the route you were going with this, but just my 2 cents.

 

[Phillyconn]

1- Don't think this matters but in case if further discussions evolve- I didn't say TD had no other A/A's on her team. I said Maya had a better cast.

2a-- You mention "numbers." First off if she didn't have the teammates then her numbers would have been more spectacular. Sure she is an amazing player. I agree but this isn't baseball. Bill Russell's offensive numbers are pedestrian at best.

2b- In terms of "numbers" - she could have probably put the scoring off the charts however - so what? In her sr season vs for example she was 5-15 from the floor vs Stanford in which UCONN lost. In her jr year vs Notre Dame she was 4-13 from the floor in one game while Tina Charles was 7-11 from the floor with 16 points and had 17 rebounds. In 08-09 Maya was 3-9 from the floor vs RU, 0-5 from 3. Renee Montgomery had 23 points 8-14 from the floor and 7-12 from 3. So yes she could have scored a lot more - but so what?

3-- Again you want to say Maya okay. I'm okay with it. You're right Maya can't control who her estimates were. Nor her competition. But neither could DT. It goes both ways. And Maya never played against Parker. Not sure why you mentioned her? As far as Diggins - even though UCONN lost to ND in FF- not sure of the relevance. Maya was always far superior to Diggins senior vs frosh. DT would have been the same too. You're not putting Diggins on the Maya/DT pedestal are you? Or are you mentioning Diggins because she as 1-4 vs Maya then she was 3-4 for vs Stewart? I think it would be worng to look at it that way. Diggins is not in the tier of Maya or DT imo so she shouldn't be mentioned at all in this conversation.

1. Ok

2. I'm just saying that Maya became the all time leading scorer, on a team with AA's, a testament to how truly great she was.

3. DT is my all time favorite player. Maya was the greatest ALL AROUND player until Stewie. DT, had a letdown in the tourney as a freshman. Stewie stepped up, to LEAD her team to victory, as a freshman. Stewie impacts the game on both ends of the floor like no other player in UCONN history. I'll put it like this imho, Greatest leader and all around offensive player, (assists included) DT. Greatest scorer and great all around player, MM. Greatest all around player Stewie, numbers don't lie. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe MM and Stewie had stiffer competition.
No, Diggins is not in the tier of DT or MM. Give me five players that DT played against, that was better than Diggins or Griner.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'd take the player who had the better season over the player who won the title with just moments of greatness throughout the year. From a team perspective, 2013 was a better year than 2011 because they won a title and overcame their Notre Dame demons in the Final Four. But from an individual season standpoint, Maya's was far and away better even without a title to her credit.

In regards to why UCONN lost in 2011 to ND, they lost because Notre Dame's offense was outstanding that night and they couldn't stop Skylar Diggins. I don't think DT changes that. If DT was in the lineup in 2011 instead of Moore...Uconn would've been a very different team. I don't think DT gets 30 shots like Moore did. In hindsight, since Notre Dame won, it could have helped to have a DT like presence in the lineup. On the flip side, I'm not sure UCONN comes back against Georgetown in the Sweet 16 with a DT instead of a Moore, and I think you can make a strong argument that UCONN doesn't come back and knock off Stanford in 2010 with DT in the lineup in place of Moore, so I don't find it a compelling argument to play the "what if xx player was in the lineup instead of this player?" game since it's purely hypothetical, although I find it interesting to think about. I don't know if that's the route you were going with this, but just my 2 cents.

I agree I take the player that plays better overall -- but that is to a point. There is something to say about players that have "the clutch gene." For example, every so often teams would have better record than the Bulls, and a couple of times Jordan didn't get MVP during Bulls run yet they still won and Jordan was very clutch. Russell and Jones won in 68-69 w/o having the best record. Havlicek seemed to have some uncanny abilities. I believe DT "has it." As does Maya. DT's team was not regarded as number 1 or number 2. Even during her junior year there was talk that UCONN wasn't as strong as Tenn or Texas or Duke. Winning a championship - playing clutch for the title- has to count for something especially when overall your team is not as good even though UCONN had such a great record.

And when we speak of comparing players- it ALL is hypothetical. You' said you don't think DT could have made a comeback vs Stanford in 2010 or vs GTWON or vs ND - these are hypotheticals. I think it is possible that UCONN would never have been in the box they were in vs ND because she would have been passing from the start thus UCONN may very well have scored more than 63 points. Instead they would have been more in-line with the 70plus points they scored in her junior year in Finalfour vs Texas and Tennessee. As far as GTOWN -- Maya was 7-20 from the floor and 3-10 from 3. The team had 20 assists with 18 turnovers in that game. DT could have done better shooting and with the ball in her hands more on the perimeter thus more likely the team would have had more assists and less turnovers. Guard play means a lot in the NCAA's which is why for example Diggins went off too.

While you indicate "a strong argument" one way- I say there can be a strong argument the other which is why they are so darn close imo. It's tough though to compare team vs team because the teams would have been structured so differently from the outset of each respective season. That's why your comment "and knock off Stanford in 2010 with DT in the lineup in place of Moore," - I think same can be said with Maya. If Maya was misfiring for example like that awful 1st half in 2010 title game vs Stanford which may have set back basketball for 50 years (sarcasm ofc-- but it was an AWFULLY played game.) I'm not sure UCONN wins in 02-03 or 03-04 if you pull DT for Maya vs Minnesota and/or Texas- especially having just Maria Conlon in the backcourt as the primary guard getting huge minutes. UCONN did put up a bit over 70 points in those games 02-03.

 

[hoophuskee]

1. Ok

2. I'm just saying that Maya became the all time leading scorer, on a team with AA's, a testament to how truly great she was.

3. DT is my all time favorite player. Maya was the greatest ALL AROUND player until Stewie. DT, had a letdown in the tourney as a freshman. Stewie stepped up, to LEAD her team to victory, as a freshman. Stewie impacts the game on both ends of the floor like no other player in UCONN history. I'll put it like this imho, Greatest leader and all around offensive player, (assists included) DT. Greatest scorer and great all around player, MM. Greatest all around player Stewie, numbers don't lie. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe MM and Stewie had stiffer competition.
No, Diggins is not in the tier of DT or MM. Give me five players that DT played against, that was better than Diggins or Griner.

What did you think of Maria Conlon as a pg? She was playing near the whole game too during the later stages of the tourney, wasn't she? Wasn't there one game in 02-03 I think where both Maria and Ann scored a combined 4 points?

DT went against Whelan in 03-04. A very hot Minny team. I'll take Whelan over Diggins. Beard as a college player was great. Far superior imo in her junior and senior years than Diggins. In Maya's junior year it was Griner vs Tina. Yeah her sr year The Amazing Maya got it done. The Amazing Amazing Amazing Amazing Maya Moore.

I asked a question of bballnut in terms of championship - what do you think of the following?

Let's take it to another level, if a player were to play like a dog for the whole year and been an awful teammate, her team finishes in last, but she becomes revitalized at end of year - they win their tourney, get an at-large birth, go on to win the championship - and here you have Maya who was super supreme throughout, and even in the game she lost she was super, does this mean the other player had the superior year because they won the championship?

I love Amazing Maya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Her ability to score and her effort and bulldog relentless determination from day one was un-un-paralleled.

 

[bballnut90]

1. Ok

2. I'm just saying that Maya became the all time leading scorer, on a team with AA's, a testament to how truly great she was.

3. DT is my all time favorite player. Maya was the greatest ALL AROUND player until Stewie. DT, had a letdown in the tourney as a freshman. Stewie stepped up, to LEAD her team to victory, as a freshman. Stewie impacts the game on both ends of the floor like no other player in UCONN history. I'll put it like this imho, Greatest leader and all around offensive player, (assists included) DT. Greatest scorer and great all around player, MM. Greatest all around player Stewie, numbers don't lie. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe MM and Stewie had stiffer competition.
No, Diggins is not in the tier of DT or MM. Give me five players that DT played against, that was better than Diggins or Griner.

I think you're 100% right in regards to stiffer competition. I might get a lot of people with differing opinions on this, but college basketball had a peak in talent level in 2001 with possibly the best senior class of all time. In 2000, all 5 AP 1st team All Americans were juniors, and 3/5 of the 2nd team players were juniors. After 2001, every top team suffered major losses due to graduation. UCONN included, but UCONN's lineup at the end of 2001 was virtually the same lineup (sans Kennitra Johnson and Schumacher) which put them at a big advantage talent wise and chemistry wise over everyone else. The best players DT faced her last 3 years were Lindsay Whalen, Stacey Dales, Alana Beard, Chantelle Anderson, Kara Lawson and Kelly Mazzante.

Compare that to Moore's last 3 years (2008 was another loaded class, so I'll omit them like I did the 2001 class), and Moore faced McCoughtry, Diggins, both Ogwumikes, Jayne Appel, Courtney Paris, and Brittney Griner.

Compare that to Stewart's last 3 years (2013 was a very top heavy class, so to keep it consistent I'll eliminate 2013) where she faced Chiney Ogwumike, Kayla McBride, Odyssey Sims, Alyssa Thomas, Tiffany Mitchell, Jewell Loyd, Brianna Turner, and A'ja Wilson. Who knows how most of these players will turn out at the next level, but I'm guessing these players will be remembered as stiffer competition than the players DT faced from 2002 to 2004.

 

[hoophuskee]

I think you're 100% right in regards to stiffer competition. I might get a lot of people with differing opinions on this, but college basketball had a peak in talent level in 2001 with possibly the best senior class of all time. In 2000, all 5 AP 1st team All Americans were juniors, and 3/5 of the 2nd team players were juniors. After 2001, every top team suffered major losses due to graduation. UCONN included, but UCONN's lineup at the end of 2001 was virtually the same lineup (sans Kennitra Johnson and Schumacher) which put them at a big advantage talent wise and chemistry wise over everyone else. The best players DT faced her last 3 years were Lindsay Whalen, Stacey Dales, Alana Beard, Chantelle Anderson, Kara Lawson and Kelly Mazzante.

Compare that to Moore's last 3 years (2008 was another loaded class, so I'll omit them like I did the 2001 class), and Moore faced McCoughtry, Diggins, both Ogwumikes, Jayne Appel, Courtney Paris, and Brittney Griner.

Compare that to Stewart's last 3 years (2013 was a very top heavy class, so to keep it consistent I'll eliminate 2013) where she faced Chiney Ogwumike, Kayla McBride, Odyssey Sims, Alyssa Thomas, Tiffany Mitchell, Jewell Loyd, Brianna Turner, and A'ja Wilson. Who knows how most of these players will turn out at the next level, but I'm guessing these players will be remembered as stiffer competition than the players DT faced from 2002 to 2004.

I'll ask you what I asked phillyconn:

What did you think of Maria Conlon as a pg? She was playing near the whole game too during the later stages of the tourney, wasn't she? Wasn't there one game in 02-03 I think where both Maria and Ann scored a combined 4 points?

 

[MilfordHusky]

Maya is great but not ahead of DT and Stewie.
To counter Diggins stone cold face you need an unconscious fierce-less Stewie. Stewie is the anecdote against Diggins's and ND poison.
Ask any ND fan who they hate (fierce, nightmare) the most. It's Stewie, Stewie is the GOAT!

For some reason, Diana underperformed against ND, unlike her stellar work against Tennessee. She was fortunate, because Barb Turner was a lethal leprechaun killer.

 

[bballnut90]

I agree I take the player that plays better overall -- but that is to a point. There is something to say about players that have "the clutch gene." For example, every so often teams would have better record than the Bulls, and a couple of times Jordan didn't get MVP during Bulls run yet they still won and Jordan was very clutch. Russell and Jones won in 68-69 w/o having the best record. Havlicek seemed to have some uncanny abilities. I believe DT "has it." As does Maya. DT's team was not regarded as number 1 or number 2. Even during her junior year there was talk that UCONN wasn't as strong as Tenn or Texas or Duke. Winning a championship - playing clutch for the title- has to count for something especially when overall your team is not as good even though UCONN had such a great record.

And when we speak of comparing players- it ALL is hypothetical. You' said you don't think DT could have made a comeback vs Stanford in 2010 or vs GTWON or vs ND - these are hypotheticals. I think it is possible that UCONN would never have been in the box they were in vs ND because she would have been passing from the start thus UCONN may very well have scored more than 63 points. Instead they would have been more in-line with the 70plus points they scored in her junior year in Finalfour vs Texas and Tennessee. As far as GTOWN -- Maya was 7-20 from the floor and 3-10 from 3. The team had 20 assists with 18 turnovers in that game. DT could have done better shooting and with the ball in her hands more on the perimeter thus more likely the team would have had more assists and less turnovers. Guard paly means a lot in the NCAA's which is why for example Diggins went off too.

While you indicate "a strong argument" one way- I say there can be a strong argument the other which is why they are so darn close imo. It's tough though to compare team vs team because the teams would have been structured so differently from the outset of each respective season. That's why your comment "and knock off Stanford in 2010 with DT in the lineup in place of Moore," - I think same can be said with Maya. If Maya was misfiring for example like that awful 1st half in 2010 title game vs Stanford which may have set back basketball for 50 years (sarcasm ofc-- but it was an AWFULLY played game.) I'm not sure UCONN wins in 02-03 or 03-04 if you pull DT for Maya vs Minnesota and/or Texas- especially having just Maria Conlon in the backcourt as the primary guard getting huge minutes. UCONN did put up a bit over 70 points in those games 02-03.

I agree that elevating your play in clutch moments should count big time. Look at Moore's performances in the Final Four:
2008 Stanford: 20 points, 9 rebounds
2009 Stanford: 24 points, 8 rebounds
2009 Louisville: 18 points, 9 rebounds
2010 Baylor: 34 points, 12 rebounds
2010 Stanford: 23 points, 11 rebounds (18 in the 2nd half)
2011 Notre Dame: 36 points, 8 rebounds

Compare that to DT's:
2001: Notre Dame: 4 points, 1/15 shooting
2002: Tennessee: 17 points, 7/16 shooting
2002: Oklahoma: 13 points, 5/16 shooting
2003: Texas: 26 points, 10/22 shooting
2003: Tennessee: 28 points, 8/15 shooting
2004: Minnesota: 18 points, 6/17 shooting
2004: Tennessee: 17 points, 6/11 shooting

The numbers don't paint the story accurately for Taurasi, and she is unquestionably one of the best big game players ever, but it is pretty astounding how Moore gets overlooked as a big game player during her collegiate career and she managed to average 25.8 points and 9.5 rebounds per game on the biggest stage. With those kinds of performances, I'd say she has as good of a clutch gene as anyone in Final Four history.

I feel there is somewhat of a stigma among UCONN fans that Moore is somehow less great of a collegiate player than Taurasi because she only won 2 titles compared to Taurasi's 3 and when she won, it wasn't in dramatic fashion like Taurasi's year as a junior. Having a 3rd title on her resume would put her in a rarefied group, but I think even without it, she stands alone at the top.

Also, in 2011 there were a lot of UCONN doubters when they lost Charles and Greene. It wasn't nearly to the degree that people doubted UCONN going into 2003, but I believe at the outset of the 2011 season, a 36-2 finish is better than most UCONN fans were expecting that season. They came close to winning a 3rd straight and Moore had a season for the ages.

 

[FairView]

I do not like the term,"the best ever"pinned on anyone.Greatness can be shared as the parts of a body.You need all the parts of a body to make the greatness of life,and though some parts may seem more important or outstanding,none of the major parts mean much without the others performing at your best.
.

You and Roy Hobbs.

 

[hoophuskee]

I agree that elevating your play in clutch moments should count big time. Look at Moore's performances in the Final Four:
2008 Stanford: 20 points, 9 rebounds
2009 Stanford: 24 points, 8 rebounds
2009 Louisville: 18 points, 9 rebounds
2010 Baylor: 34 points, 12 rebounds
2010 Stanford: 23 points, 11 rebounds (18 in the 2nd half)
2011 Notre Dame: 36 points, 8 rebounds

Compare that to DT's:
2001: Notre Dame: 4 points, 1/15 shooting
2002: Tennessee: 17 points, 7/16 shooting
2002: Oklahoma: 13 points, 5/16 shooting
2003: Texas: 26 points, 10/22 shooting
2003: Tennessee: 28 points, 8/15 shooting
2004: Minnesota: 18 points, 6/17 shooting
2004: Tennessee: 17 points, 6/11 shooting

The numbers don't paint the story accurately for Taurasi, and she is unquestionably one of the best big game players ever, but it is pretty astounding how Moore gets overlooked as a big game player during her collegiate career and she managed to average 25.8 points and 9.5 rebounds per game on the biggest stage. With those kinds of performances, I'd say she has as good of a clutch gene as anyone in Final Four history.

I feel there is somewhat of a stigma among UCONN fans that Moore is somehow less great of a collegiate player than Taurasi because she only won 2 titles compared to Taurasi's 3 and when she won, it wasn't in dramatic fashion like Taurasi's year as a junior. Having a 3rd title on her resume would put her in a rarefied group, but I think even without it, she stands alone at the top.

Also, in 2011 there were a lot of UCONN doubters when they lost Charles and Greene. It wasn't nearly to the degree that people doubted UCONN going into 2003, but I believe at the outset of the 2011 season, a 36-2 finish is better than most UCONN fans were expecting that season. They came close to winning a 3rd straight and Moore had a season for the ages.

Where are you getting the stats from? Do you have a link? I'd like to look at all the stats. Maybe get DT's full seaosns too? For example the game in Htfd Tenn vs UCON was clutch as was Maya's steal vs DePaul but doesn't show in the offense numbers. Secondly. who said Maya wasn't clutch? So I don't buy your stigma pov. You are replying to me though, so I hope you aren't implying I said Amazing Maya wasn't clutch? I don't think you are but want to make that point clear. Third, I don't agree with the stats you are choosing as if to imply Maya was more clutch / or greater in some manner than DT in the clutch. Maya was a scorer. Of course the stats you choose to show- scoring - are going to show her to be superior. You chose the scoring stats which was Maya's best offensive strength . What I'd like to see is also assists vs turnovers too.

That's sort of a point we are arguing, is it not? I mean that is the point I brought up to you, that DT would might have gotten her team more involved vs ND because she is guard that is also a great passer, and imo as a superior passer. The game for example in Maya's senior year that Maya was such an amazing scorer, DT would have passed more, maybe getting her team more involved so maybe they would have scored more than 63 points. The stats you are showing have no way of clarifying the passing part of the game. They are skewed to favor Maya - the scorer. That's DT was a guard, she passed a lot too. While Maya in the games she was in the final four she averaged 2.33 assists vs 2.5 turnovers. One game she had 5 assists vs 2 turnovers vs an overmatched Louisville Team which imo was the worst/easiest opponent that either had to face at the start of the game for a Final Four. I'd be surprised if DT's passing wasn't much better than Maya's. Maybe it isn't if you count her awful frosh game-- I don't know. I just think all the stats are relevant not just the scoring stats.

Re: to scoring numbers - I think sometimes a guard that manages the game gets over-looked - the have their own stigma. I do put more value in a player's ability to score than a dominant-pg-passer. But if you have someone who does both very well, their aggregate as a "triple-Threat" can be superior to the scorer. If one were to argue who is greater Melo or Chris Paul? Melo has gone to Western Conference Finals once while Paul has never. And using your stats of scoring, Melo would be shown as superior. But I would take Paul.

And again I'll ask--
What did you think of Maria Conlon as a pg? She was playing near the whole game too during the later stages of the tourney, wasn't she? Wasn't there one game in 02-03 tourney, later rounds in which I think where both Maria and Ann scored a combined 4 points?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

I agree that elevating your play in clutch moments should count big time. Look at Moore's performances in the Final Four:
2008 Stanford: 20 points, 9 rebounds
2009 Stanford: 24 points, 8 rebounds
2009 Louisville: 18 points, 9 rebounds
2010 Baylor: 34 points, 12 rebounds
2010 Stanford: 23 points, 11 rebounds (18 in the 2nd half)
2011 Notre Dame: 36 points, 8 rebounds

Compare that to DT's:
2001: Notre Dame: 4 points, 1/15 shooting
2002: Tennessee: 17 points, 7/16 shooting
2002: Oklahoma: 13 points, 5/16 shooting
2003: Texas: 26 points, 10/22 shooting
2003: Tennessee: 28 points, 8/15 shooting
2004: Minnesota: 18 points, 6/17 shooting
2004: Tennessee: 17 points, 6/11 shooting

The numbers don't paint the story accurately for Taurasi, and she is unquestionably one of the best big game players ever, but it is pretty astounding how Moore gets overlooked as a big game player during her collegiate career and she managed to average 25.8 points and 9.5 rebounds per game on the biggest stage. With those kinds of performances, I'd say she has as good of a clutch gene as anyone in Final Four history.

I feel there is somewhat of a stigma among UCONN fans that Moore is somehow less great of a collegiate player than Taurasi because she only won 2 titles compared to Taurasi's 3 and when she won, it wasn't in dramatic fashion like Taurasi's year as a junior. Having a 3rd title on her resume would put her in a rarefied group, but I think even without it, she stands alone at the top.

Also, in 2011 there were a lot of UCONN doubters when they lost Charles and Greene. It wasn't nearly to the degree that people doubted UCONN going into 2003, but I believe at the outset of the 2011 season, a 36-2 finish is better than most UCONN fans were expecting that season. They came close to winning a 3rd straight and Moore had a season for the ages.

I don't think it's really possible to say one or the other was "the greatest." They were both absolutely amazing. I believe Geno has said on more than one occasion that Diana is the greatest to ever play the women's game. But I would make a distinction with Breanna, because at 6'4", she is a very different player. I think Breanna has to be compared with Parker and other bigs, not with a 6' wing. Very different games.

For me, I think Diana's last national championship was an amazing feat. She really took that team to the title almost single-handedly. And the fact that the very next year the team lost 8 games without her shows how weak a supporting cast she had. Breanna has had a great team around her all four years. Maya had Tina for three years, and that was a major boost. But can anyone really pick D or Maya?

 

[j66kicker]

For me, I think Diana's last national championship was an amazing feat. She really took that team to the title almost single-handedly. And the fact that the very next year the team lost 8 games without her shows how weak a supporting cast she had. Breanna has had a great team around her all four years. Maya had Tina for three years, and that was a major boost. But can anyone really pick D or Maya?

I can. D all the way.

 

[Sonny44]

I thought Stewie put the team on her back during NCAA's her frosh year. ND during crunch time was always able to prevent KML from getting off a significant number of good shots and Dolson was not much of a scorer and Hartley was hurt/struggled during her jr year. And it's tough to knock Stewie about putting team on her back. She did average 19.5 points and 8 rebounds in her soph year final four with no one coming close to beating them in FF.

I do think that was her greatest game ever.

 

[Sonny44]

You say DT was the only AA on her team. Maya, had AA's on her team, right? She became the all time leading scorer on a team that had other great players. Imagine the numbers, if she had none. Also, if Stewie had less help, she would put up astronomical numbers. Can't control who's on your team. Can't control the level of competition. DT never had to go against Griner, Diggins or Parker. The only real rival back then was Tennessee, I think.

The only knock on Maya was that she could not carry her team to the NC in her senior year. Her team let her down. I think you have to go out a winner to be thought of as the best; that last memory hangs around. I also think that if Breanna had the minutes that that Maya and Diana had her numbers alone would make this whole thread look foolish.

 

[hoophuskee]

The only knock on Maya was that she could not carry her team to the NC in her senior year. Her team let her down. I think you have to go out a winner to be thought of as the best; that last memory hangs around. I also think that if Breanna had the minutes that that Maya and Diana had her numbers alone would make this whole thread look foolish.

What if Stewie doesn't win the title this year?

 

[Phillyconn]

The only knock on Maya was that she could not carry her team to the NC in her senior year. Her team let her down. I think you have to go out a winner to be thought of as the best; that last memory hangs around. I also think that if Breanna had the minutes that that Maya and Diana had her numbers alone would make this whole thread look foolish.

Much stiffer competition for Maya, in her senior year. Geno had Pats number, for DT's final year. ND, Stanford have better coached teams. DT, is my favorite of all time because, not only was she a great player, she was the consummate teammate, but most of all, she was tough. Didn't mind throwing a elbow or letting opposing players know what was on her mind. I love her cockiness, or what the kids today call swag. I wish Maya and Stewie had a bit more of what DT had. It most certainly would stop all of the cheapshots.

 

[Sonny44]

What if Stewie doesn't win the title this year?

Guess we'll have to do this all over again.

 

[JRRRJ]

Where are you getting the stats from? Do you have a link? I'd like to look at all the stats. Maybe get DT's full seaosns too? For example the game in Htfd Tenn vs UCON was clutch as was Maya's steal vs DePaul but doesn't show in the offense numbers. Secondly. who said Maya wasn't clutch? So I don't buy your stigma pov. You are replying to me though, so I hope you aren't implying I said Amazing Maya wasn't clutch? I don't think you are but want to make that point clear. Third, I don't agree with the stats you are choosing as if to imply Maya was more clutch / or greater in some manner than DT in the clutch. Maya was a scorer. Of course the stats you choose to show- scoring - are going to show her to be superior. You chose the scoring stats which was Maya's best offensive strength . What I'd like to see is also assists vs turnovers too.
...
And again I'll ask--
What did you think of Maria Conlon as a pg? She was playing near the whole game too during the later stages of the tourney, wasn't she? Wasn't there one game in 02-03 tourney, later rounds in which I think where both Maria and Ann scored a combined 4 points?

For your "where are the stats" question, your answer is here. Any NCAA sport, any division, long list of years (varies by sport/division, click the link in the middle top of the page to see the available years). You can also search by player or coach, though the team cumulative stats pages for each year (going back to at least 2000 for UConn WBB) have a link to each player's stats for that year.

The search page is linked at the bottom of my "Interesting NCAA Site Pages" page.

Your Conlon question comes at an interesting time for me. Colleen & I just watched the 2002 NCAA semi-final vs Tennessee a couple days ago. Maria played significant minutes in the game and made me cringe because I'd used Geno's "short, but slow" (humerous) description of her when bringing Colleen up to speed on the context of the year. She played quite well -- defense and offense -- vs whatever players Pat had on the floor at the time.

 

[UcMiami]

Oh my. Lots of stuff here and the bottom line is we have three of the GOATs playing in three different sets of 4 years with no overlap of competition. They all three have had stretches of sheer brilliance and others when they were less than stellar. They all played with great teammates and for the same great coaching staff.
I will say that of the three, Stewart's performance in her freshman year NCAA tournament was greater than the other two - perhaps Maya's freshman year team was not as good as DT's or Stewarts, but if so, it is a distinction without a difference - all three teams were great.
Perhaps DT had to do more for her team her last two years than Maya did or Stewart will, but does that detract from either of them? Hard to really argue that. And DT's had more upperclass support than Moore had as a senior - that experience really helps in the NCAAs.
Moore was probably the most college ready of the three, but what does that buy you at the end of your freshman year - or when you graduate? The points leadership I guess.

They all three have/will graduated with great individual stats and great team records and multiple NCs - DT left as the leader in assists (perhaps to be broken eleven years later), Moore with the points record, and Stewart likely with the Blocks leadership, but those records only tell a fraction of their story as they filled up stats across the board. And their most important aspects were what they gave to their teammates and team, and their will to win.

Love all three and a bunch of other uconn players as well. And i will not denigrate one's accomplishments to build up another's.

 

[hoophuskee]

For your "where are the stats" question, your answer is here. Any NCAA sport, any division, long list of years (varies by sport/division, click the link in the middle top of the page to see the available years). You can also search by player or coach, though the team cumulative stats pages for each year (going back to at least 2000 for UConn WBB) have a link to each player's stats for that year.

The search page is linked at the bottom of my "Interesting NCAA Site Pages" page.

Your Conlon question comes at an interesting time for me. Colleen & I just watched the 2002 NCAA semi-final vs Tennessee a couple days ago. Maria played significant minutes in the game and made me cringe because I'd used Geno's "short, but slow" (humerous) description of her when bringing Colleen up to speed on the context of the year. She played quite well -- defense and offense -- vs whatever players Pat had on the floor at the time.

Thank you!!! I love looking up this stuff sometimes. Appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hoophuskee]

Oh my. Lots of stuff here and the bottom line is we have three of the GOATs playing in three different sets of 4 years with no overlap of competition. They all three have had stretches of sheer brilliance and others when they were less than stellar. They all played with great teammates and for the same great coaching staff.
I will say that of the three, Stewart's performance in her freshman year NCAA tournament was greater than the other two - perhaps Maya's freshman year team was not as good as DT's or Stewarts, but if so, it is a distinction without a difference - all three teams were great.
Perhaps DT had to do more for her team her last two years than Maya did or Stewart will, but does that detract from either of them? Hard to really argue that. And DT's had more upperclass support than Moore had as a senior - that experience really helps in the NCAAs.
Moore was probably the most college ready of the three, but what does that buy you at the end of your freshman year - or when you graduate? The points leadership I guess.

They all three have/will graduated with great individual stats and great team records and multiple NCs - DT left as the leader in assists (perhaps to be broken eleven years later), Moore with the points record, and Stewart likely with the Blocks leadership, but those records only tell a fraction of their story as they filled up stats across the board. And their most important aspects were what they gave to their teammates and team, and their will to win.

Love all three and a bunch of other uconn players as well. And i will not denigrate one's accomplishments to build up another's.

Loved your post. When you get into these things -- even who is best pg ever. Who is best center ever-- so darn hard to choose!! Dt vs Maya Vs BS.

Then Bird vs MoJeff. Then Lobo vs Tina. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I felt like I was bashing Maya but no way meant to. Amazing Maya in her sr year had to play center. Anywhere on the court Amazing Maya can get off a jumper and the ball has a high chance of going in. Amazing Maya had a motor offense and defense which was brought up by bballnut that was evident since day one to her last day. Amazing Maya could guard 5 positions on the floor. That steal vs DePaul was all about what Amazing Maya was. Relentless. Never give up. Even in ND game her last - when it looked as though from what I recall 2/3 people at her - yet she just elevated over them and gave Huskies a chance- just didn''t give up.