Something while we wait

[Biff]

Since we have several days without a game, I thought it would be a good time to kick around something that is not "resolvable".

I've posted videos like this before. It's the famous Charge/block issue. One of those areas in basketball that I don't think will ever be consistent. This one is one of the charges called against KML.

The biggest gray issue in this sequence to me is "What constitutes a lowered shoulder? I disagree with most of what Meg says in describing the play. After examining the video several times the only issue is whether or not there is any kind of definition of what constitutes a lowered shoulder. I can easily argue that for KML to attack the basket on the line she is using her body angle must naturally be what it is. I see no excessively or exaggerated lowering of her shoulder. Even more clear to me is the fact that she neither extends her arm or pushes off with it in any way. In fact, when their two vectors finally merge she pulls up immediately and does not drive through Lucas.

My amateur conclusion is that while I can see why a ref would make a charge call in real time, especially with the reactive body motion that Lucas sells, I think this was a bad call and Meg's description and explanation afterwards is inaccurate at best.

I'm sure other opinions will vary (all over the map if past experiences with these things are any indicator)

 

[magic]

Since we have several days without a game, I thought it would be a good time to kick around something that is not "resolvable".

I've posted videos like this before. It's the famous Charge/block issue. One of those areas in basketball that I don't think will ever be consistent. This one is one of the charges called against KML.

The biggest gray issue in this sequence to me is "What constitutes a lowered shoulder? I disagree with most of what Meg says in describing the play. After examining the video several times the only issue is whether or not there is any kind of definition of what constitutes a lowered shoulder. I can easily argue that for KML to attack the basket on the line she is using her body angle must naturally be what it is. I see no excessively or exaggerated lowering of her shoulder. Even more clear to me is the fact that she neither extends her arm or pushes off with it in any way. In fact, when their two vectors finally merge she pulls up immediately and does not drive through Lucas.

My amateur conclusion is that while I can see why a ref would make a charge call in real time, especially with the reactive body motion that Lucas sells, I think this was a bad call and Meg's description and explanation afterwards is inaccurate at best.

I'm sure other opinions will vary (all over the map if past experiences with these things are any indicator)

I have watched this over again many times w/slow, and keep coming up with the same conclusion. One of the worst offensive fouls calls you will ever see. Apparently, the woman's game is playing a different game than I grew up watching , and I'm no kid.

 

[VAMike23]

That was one of the calls where I definitely share in the disagreement with MC - the PSU player caused the contact by coming into KML from sort of a side angle. KML's body lean was from trying to drive hard to the baseline to beat the defender. It was not being lowered into a player with established defensive position. (I understand a player does not have to be stationary to have an established position in this situation, where it's a question of the shoulder being lowered or a player pushing off with the arm.)

For the record I also had a clear disagreement with the charge call in the first half where KML was driving from the right side. On replay, I believe she had already left her feet so the defender was too late.

The other 3 calls were, IMO, close but I wouldn't bicker about them. The two above were just plain bad.

 

[Rb335]

I think that the shoulder is not even lowered when she makes contact with Lucas. I too disagree with this call, the only case I think could be made is the stiff arm, but even that is weak. Good sell by Lucas to the refs.

 

[Kibitzer]

The correct call should have been a personal foul against Lucas for whacking Kaleena's shoulder with her chin.

 

[OneTrickPony]

It seems like Maggie was rewarded for a good acting job...the slow-mo analysis during the game was inexplicable...I can't imagine an NBA player getting that call and can imagine a warning for flopping...which would be a good addition to the college game if practical.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I agree that was a bad call. It looks as if Lucas cut off KML's path and caused the contact. KML did not push off. AFTER the impact, Kaleena's arm is extended slightly as a reflexive move following contact. Poor, poor call.

 

[Sonny44]

Watch KML's elbow. If she raises it into the defender's body it's a charge.
But she didn't.

 

[Icebear]

Watch KML's elbow. If she raises it into the defender's body it's a charge.
But she didn't.

Indeed and the elbow was after the initial contact of Maggie Lucas crowding Kaleena's space.

 

[HGN]

Actually should have been a No Call.

 

[meyers7]

Actually should have been a No Call.

Yes I think that would have been best.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I think there is too much contact, especially where the ball is, for a no call. In a game where little is called, that might work. Clearly a no call is better and more accurate than a charge.

When I saw KML's high school tapes, I was a little concerned about her use of the off hand to get space. That was not the issue on this play.

 

[UCONNfan1]

I actually was O.K. with that call, but found the 2nd foul call against KML worse.

For the call linked above, she's dribbling with her right arm down at her side, then just before the contact, she brings her right arm up and even if she doesn't "push off", it looks like she probably did.

It's just like when Stefanie goes to block a shot, and instead of holding her hands up, she angles down in a downward motion. Even if she gets all ball, she's likely to be called for a foul.

While I generally agree it should have been a no-call, I can see why the call was made against KML. Of course, it was pointed out that Lucas came in at an angle, was still moving, and ran right into KML so I also would have been O.K. with a block being called.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

I actually was O.K. with that call, but found the 2nd foul call against KML worse.

For the call linked above, she's dribbling with her right arm down at her side, then just before the contact, she brings her right arm up and even if she doesn't "push off", it looks like she probably did.

It's just like when Stefanie goes to block a shot, and instead of holding her hands up, she angles down in a downward motion. Even if she gets all ball, she's likely to be called for a foul.

While I generally agree it should have been a no-call, I can see why the call was made against KML. Of course, it was pointed out that Lucas came in at an angle, was still moving, and ran right into KML so I also would have been O.K. with a block being called.

A defensive player has to establish position..the push off was in response to the moving intrusion of Lucas, who has no feet set. If you can play defense this way, it is an easy job.

 

[Icebear]

A defensive player has to establish position..the push off was in response to the moving intrusion of Lucas, who has no feet set. If you can play defense this way, it is an easy job.

Feet do not need to be set but you must have preoccupied the position. Rebecca correctedly noted that in the game against MD.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

So you can jump around as long as you were there first? Whatever...

 

[VAMike23]

So you can jump around as long as you were there first? Whatever...

That's one of the situations that can result in offensive fouls: the traditional block/charge where the defender has to beat the player to the spot. But if you're moving with the player (backpedalling, riding them at an angle, whatever) without pushing and they plow over you with their shoulder or shed you with their arm, that is still an offensive foul. Either one used to be called a "player control" foul, and the ref put his/her hand behind the head to make that call. They don't seem to do that now, though.

 

[Icebear]

That's one of the situations that can result in offensive fouls: the traditional block/charge where the defender has to beat the player to the spot. But if you're moving with the player (backpedalling, riding them at an angle, whatever) without pushing and they plow over you with their shoulder or shed you with their arm, that is still an offensive foul. Either one used to be called a "player control" foul, and the ref put his/her hand behind the head to make that call. They don't seem to do that now, though.

Exactly. You do not not have to be stationary with feet set.

 

[jplotinus]

Well, I suppose these are the dog days of the WCBB season. Still, the thread topic is akin to watching paint dry. :-(

 

[willtalk]

I don't see any lowering of the shoulder before contact. It's edgy but still an offensive foul. I think this video doesn't give a clear perspective of the relationship of each player in respect to a direct line to the basket, so the stationary ref and the three point lines must be used. KLM doesn't take a direct route to the basket but is traveling in an outward curve. The video might give the impression that the defender is moving into her but she is actually moving along side her only maintaining the same space- adjusting to the outward curve. KLM then moves abruptly into her. It's a charge.

No she wouldn't get that call in the NBA because the NBA has adjusted their calls to make their Stars look better than they are. You seldom even see blatant push offs called. It's no longer about actual basketball rules but marketing entertainment.

VAmike23 just read your post and you are correct.