So the SEC wants ND to join a conference

[ctchamps]

Here's where I agree with TerryD: the point is that the Big Ten (and Pac-12 and SEC) DO NOT want Notre Dame to join the ACC.

It's a college football version of Mutually Assured Destruction: everyone wants Notre Dame to join their own conference, but NOT someone else's conference. As a result, they'd all rather have Notre Dame stay independent than to take their national brand name and TV power to elevate a competing conference. Trust me: the Big Ten wants absolutely nothing to do with Notre Dame joining the ACC as a full-member and would greatly prefer the independence status quo in that regard if the Irish don't want to join the B1G.

That's why all of these power conference commissioners continue to let ND have full access to the adult table. They can't afford ND to join any conference that isn't their own conference. Coaches (who are irrelevant in college football business matters) can complain all they want, but Notre Dame is a money maker for the power system, so the people that actually matter (the money people) are more than willing to provide them concessions (whereas the ones that they truly despise are who they perceive to be the money takers AKA the Group of Five conferences).

You would lose in the game of risk! This is a static argument and not a dynamic argument!

 

[SubbaBub]

I don't understand. If the true P4 force ND to join the ACC they are weakened. They become a better version if VT and have to fight with FSU for a playoff slot.

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[specialisthusky]

I don't understand. If the true P4 force ND to join the ACC they are weakened. They become a better version if VT and have to fight with FSU for a playoff slot.

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I think he's referring to the $ that would be involved.

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[frankthetank]

I think he's referring to the $ that would be involved.

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Exactly. What happens to the Big Ten's plans for the East Coast if Notre Dame joins the ACC as a full member? Heck, what happens to the Big Ten's own home base of Chicago (where ND is still the most popular college sports team)? Who gets into the playoff is an rounding error concern compared to the big dollars that affect 95% of the power conference schools that aren't realistically competing for national championships regularly (those that aren't named Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc.).

Let me repeat this again: NO ONE wants to force Notre Dame to join *a* conference. They only want Notre Dame to join *their* conference. Coaches care about who gets into a playoff, which makes sense because that's an on-the-field matter that affects their job security. However, Notre Dame joining (or not joining) a conference is completely an off-the-field matter that's driven by money, power and prestige that guys like Steve Spurrier are either (a) clueless about or (b) don't care about since they are paid to have a laser-like focus on wins and recruiting.

Believe me: the Big Ten would rather let Notre Dame into the new CFP playoff 1000 times over compared to letting any Group of Five team into it. Notre Dame still makes the Big Ten (and every other power conference) money, but the Group of Five takes money away from them. All complaints about ND arise because they are such a high profile team, which is a de facto indicator of their unique power in college sports (and I say this as a complete Big Ten guy that thinks the average Domer are indoctrinated like the Borg).

 

[frankthetank]

You would lose in the game of risk! This is a static argument and not a dynamic argument!

It has taken over 130 years for college football to finally implement just a four-team playoff. Dynamism isn't exactly a dominant trait of college sports people, particularly in a world where elitism and blue blooded credentials mean everything.

 

[UPitt]

I don't understand. If the true P4 force ND to join the ACC they are weakened. They become a better version if VT and have to fight with FSU for a playoff slot.

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The additional money ND would bring may allow the ACC to be more of an equal with the B1G and SEC, especially in terms of national fan following and money.

Most importantly though, the P5 really like the system in place today and do not want to upset it. They get almost full control of the scheduling, playoffs, major bowls, and most minor bowls. They have formed a small 4 team playoff that will likely be exclusive to the P5 and ND, excluding just about everyone else. They control the size of the playoffs, which will allow them to keep it exclusive and small. A small exclusive playoff system is more valuable to the P5 because of regular season TV contracts. As long as teams such as ND and BYU remain independant, it makes it harder for the NCAA to step in and regulate the post season.

 

[woomba]

Back at you continuing the "good discussion" - I appreciate your point of view. BTW, Mendoza is probably your best grad school and it is very good, but I don't think a kid is passing up a Harvard MBA to go there. (IMO) (Speaking of Harvard, it must be nice to be in a conference [or league as they put it] where conference expansion or realignment is really off the table.)

Mendoza's ranking is for its BBA - it's generally considered to be a Top 3 program most years. It struggles a bit at the graduate level though and is usually ranked around #20 at the MBA level.

 

[Husky25]

(Speaking of Harvard, it must be nice to be in a conference [or league as they put it] where conference expansion or realignment is really off the table.)

Ugh...Reeks of small time.

 

[Sea Goat]

Ugh...Reeks of small time.

Sure it is - but they don't need a massive TV contract to fund anything.

 

[ctchamps]

It has taken over 130 years for college football to finally implement just a four-team playoff. Dynamism isn't exactly a dominant trait of college sports people, particularly in a world where elitism and blue blooded credentials mean everything.

For good or bad, depending on one' perspective, the pace of things has accelerated including changes in college sports. And things will really accelerate as the pre baby boomers die out.

The points you made in the post I originally responded to have merit. But the dynamics of the current world makes me feel the counter arguments to your position have more merit. Certainly there is an inertia to behavioral change. And the more complex the behavior, such as institutional behavior, the greater the inertia. So what makes me take issue with your post. The things that tend to overcome inertia: the desire for power/money/image. When the value increases for any of these things the rate of change increases.

No one is arguing whether ND has cache. They do. The argument is whether that cache is worth the power/money they are currently getting. This vote by the SEC coaches, imo, was more than just an empty statement. It was the first salvo to challenge the ND paradigm. There are a lot of interests that want to see ND brought down several pegs. And the consensus is shifting away from the belief that ND is a football powerhouse. There are a lot of people in this forum who strongly feel that if ND were in a conference they would struggle and become mediocre if their schedule was more regimented than tailored. IMO, the SEC coaches also feel that way. And imo they have judged ND football correctly. The boost the ACC would get with the initial agreement by ND to fully join their conference could be disastrous to the conference if ND does not perform. The SEC coaches are predicting that would happen.

University leaders had tasted blood when they asserted themselves in demanding a greater share of media money. Egos are getting involved and there will be more and more decision makers who want to assert their control over things. ND, even with its cache, would be the perfect entity for the power three conferences (The ACC and the Texas conference are more reactionary imo) to send a message to the NCAA and the media entities they are associated with, that the universities in these three conferences are the ones controlling things. ND is on thin ice because the network they are affiliated with is not sending monies to any of these conferences. Certainly ND will still have NBC's contract but the loss of the generous bowl agreement they currently have could accelerate ND's football decline and marginalize NBC in the process. The SEC coaches are betting ND will become mediocre either way and that reduces the pie significantly. It would be the same reduction as the choice to squeeze out all the non power five conferences.

Once a wild animal tastes blood, the desire for more blood is increased. And there is a little bit of wild beast in most of us, even those who mask it well.

 

[Husky25]

Sure it is - but they don't need a massive TV contract to fund anything.

Where's fanDan when we need him?

 

[B1GALUM]

Here's where I agree with TerryD: the point is that the Big Ten (and Pac-12 and SEC) DO NOT want Notre Dame to join the ACC.

It's a college football version of Mutually Assured Destruction: everyone wants Notre Dame to join their own conference, but NOT someone else's conference. As a result, they'd all rather have Notre Dame stay independent than to take their national brand name and TV power to elevate a competing conference. Trust me: the Big Ten wants absolutely nothing to do with Notre Dame joining the ACC as a full-member and would greatly prefer the independence status quo in that regard if the Irish don't want to join the B1G.

That's why all of these power conference commissioners continue to let ND have full access to the adult table. They can't afford ND to join any conference that isn't their own conference. Coaches (who are irrelevant in college football business matters) can complain all they want, but Notre Dame is a money maker for the power system, so the people that actually matter (the money people) are more than willing to provide them concessions (whereas the ones that they truly despise are who they perceive to be the money takers AKA the Group of Five conferences).

Would the B1G care about Notre Dame in the ACC as a full member if some combination of Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas were to join the B1G; especially Texas?

 

[cheech63]

My guess is if ND was forced to join a conference (highly doubt it since no one has been able to yet) it would be the ACC. ND doesn't want to be tied to the Big 10 and has made that apparent. I would expect the ACC to take Cincy, Texas, Navy, or several others before Uconn was considered. The ACC already has their share of the NE with BC, Syracuse, and Duke.

The great additions of Pitt and Louisville round out the ACC nicely and would make an attractive home for ND.

since when is duke part of the NE ?

 

[larryredbull]

since when is duke part of the NE ?

Duke probably has more alumni in New Jersey than North Carolina. There is a reason they call it The State University of New Jersey at Durham

 

[CL82]

BC a poster replying to himself, now that is original.

Clear violation of troll rule #32: When using multiple handles be sure to switch them up before replying to your alter ego's messsage.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

While the SEC is a powerful conference, primarily in football, they are still a regional group of universities that, for the most part, are not on the same level as ND, the B1G and others (Vandy being an obvious exception).
Thus, ND is not going to the SEC. ND will preserve the current structure of the P5, outside of a few fridge adds/subtracts, for as long as possible as it allows them to remain independent, which is ND’s primary goal, especially their powerful alumni base.
ND views itself as a truly ‘national’ university with no peer in the regionally based conferences. Plus, they have some bad blood with their most natural partner, the B1G, due to some historical religious issues (not so historical to Ohio St) and more recently when ND flipped-off the B1G to join as an associate member of the new B1G hockey league. They only joined the ACC because the ACC offered a juiced-up Big E sweetheart deal to ND and helped their non-football sports.
The only way that ND will join any conference is if UNC or Texas bail on their current conferences, which would result in the decimation of the ACC or XII respectively and create a P4 with 18 to 24 schools each. In that scenario, ND would likely be cut-off from a football championship game (4 team conference oriented playoff). Thus, ND would join the ACC if the XII died or the B1G if the ACC died.

 

[woomba]

Plus, they have some bad blood with their most natural partner, the B1G, due to some historical religious issues (not so historical to Ohio St) and more recently when ND flipped-off the B1G to join as an associate member of the new B1G hockey league.

Just a small correction here - ND was interested in joining the Big Ten Hockey league as an associate member and was rebuffed, not the other way around.

I also think the whole 'bad blood' thing between ND and the Big Ten is overblown. There is some legit history there between Michigan and ND but that's a sports-only thing and not an institution-wide thing...and it was also 80+ years ago. It's just that they value FB independence over everything else and will do whatever it takes to preserve it.

 

[TerryD]

For good or bad, depending on one' perspective, the pace of things has accelerated including changes in college sports. And things will really accelerate as the pre baby boomers die out.

The points you made in the post I originally responded to have merit. But the dynamics of the current world makes me feel the counter arguments to your position have more merit. Certainly there is an inertia to behavioral change. And the more complex the behavior, such as institutional behavior, the greater the inertia. So what makes me take issue with your post. The things that tend to overcome inertia: the desire for power/money/image. When the value increases for any of these things the rate of change increases.

No one is arguing whether ND has cache. They do. The argument is whether that cache is worth the power/money they are currently getting. This vote by the SEC coaches, imo, was more than just an empty statement. It was the first salvo to challenge the ND paradigm. There are a lot of interests that want to see ND brought down several pegs. And the consensus is shifting away from the belief that ND is a football powerhouse. There are a lot of people in this forum who strongly feel that if ND were in a conference they would struggle and become mediocre if their schedule was more regimented than tailored. IMO, the SEC coaches also feel that way. And imo they have judged ND football correctly. The boost the ACC would get with the initial agreement by ND to fully join their conference could be disastrous to the conference if ND does not perform. The SEC coaches are predicting that would happen.

University leaders had tasted blood when they asserted themselves in demanding a greater share of media money. Egos are getting involved and there will be more and more decision makers who want to assert their control over things. ND, even with its cache, would be the perfect entity for the power three conferences (The ACC and the Texas conference are more reactionary imo) to send a message to the NCAA and the media entities they are associated with, that the universities in these three conferences are the ones controlling things. ND is on thin ice because the network they are affiliated with is not sending monies to any of these conferences. Certainly ND will still have NBC's contract but the loss of the generous bowl agreement they currently have could accelerate ND's football decline and marginalize NBC in the process. The SEC coaches are betting ND will become mediocre either way and that reduces the pie significantly. It would be the same reduction as the choice to squeeze out all the non power five conferences.

Once a wild animal tastes blood, the desire for more blood is increased. And there is a little bit of wild beast in most of us, even those who mask it well.

Well, here are the typical opponents ND has played mostly every year in the past 20 or so years:

Michigan
Michigan State
Purdue
Pitt
Southern Cal
Stanford
Navy
BC

That isn't "regimented"?

What loss of generous bowl agreement? The BCS? ND got $4.5 million if it made a BCS bowl, $1.3 million if it did not. With the playoffs, access bowls, Orange Bowl in play for ND, I am not sure that I know what "generous" bowl ND has lost access to. It has full access to all minor ACC bowls.

I "feel" that your "feeling" is mostly wishful thinking. We will just have to agree to disagree.

My wife and I are heading out in the morning for a 17 day vacation in Scotland and Ireland. I will be out of touch for a while so this may be my last post on this topic (I am sure that makes many happy).

Good luck to UConn this coming season. I am hopeful that the ACC expands soon and adds UConn. I don't want the Big Ten to expand any further into the Northeast.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Exactly. What happens to the Big Ten's plans for the East Coast if Notre Dame joins the ACC as a full member? Heck, what happens to the Big Ten's own home base of Chicago (where ND is still the most popular college sports team)? Who gets into the playoff is an rounding error concern compared to the big dollars that affect 95% of the power conference schools that aren't realistically competing for national championships regularly (those that aren't named Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc.).

Let me repeat this again: NO ONE wants to force Notre Dame to join *a* conference. They only want Notre Dame to join *their* conference. Coaches care about who gets into a playoff, which makes sense because that's an on-the-field matter that affects their job security. However, Notre Dame joining (or not joining) a conference is completely an off-the-field matter that's driven by money, power and prestige that guys like Steve Spurrier are either (a) clueless about or (b) don't care about since they are paid to have a laser-like focus on wins and recruiting.

Believe me: the Big Ten would rather let Notre Dame into the new CFP playoff 1000 times over compared to letting any Group of Five team into it. Notre Dame still makes the Big Ten (and every other power conference) money, but the Group of Five takes money away from them. All complaints about ND arise because they are such a high profile team, which is a de facto indicator of their unique power in college sports (and I say this as a complete Big Ten guy that thinks the average Domer are indoctrinated like the Borg).

This makes sense. But the sec, pac12, and likely the big12 have minimal chances of landing nd. Does the sec care if nd joins acc for FB?

 

[CL82]

Would the B1G care about Notre Dame in the ACC as a full member if some combination of Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas were to join the B1G; especially Texas?

Yes.

 

[Adios]

I feel the need to point out that in 2002, Buffalo won their only game of the season against Rutgers. In New Jersey. Only 19K. Their only win ever against a BCS team.

Rutgers only won one game that season, their next game against Army. Attendance at home went as low as 10K that season. They couldn't even sell out a home game against #1 Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Buffalo_Bulls_football_team

The Bulls even lost to Lehigh at home to open the season that year.

We've never had anywhere near as low as 10K for a home crowd since we went BCS, so far. Let's hope the team keeps winning.

Syracuse fans always show up. Their attendance numbers during the Greg Robinson years are impressive.

 

[B1GALUM]

I am hopeful that the ACC expands soon and adds UConn. I don't want the Big Ten to expand any further into the Northeast.

I am personally supportive of B1G expansion into the east and UConn being included in this expansion; regrettably, I do not think further expansion into the East is on the B1G agenda. My impression is that Delany et al. really think the addition of Rutgers and Maryland - with the restructure of the divisions to bring OSU, PSU and UM into the East - as well as inclusion of Johns Hopkins for the affiliate membership are enough to gain an East coast presence for the B1G.
It is my sense that a concern among the western B1G teams about imbalance with the restructure of the divisions and movement away from the Midwest roots of the conference will be voiced at some point if not already done. I suspect that Nebraska in particular would lobby Delany et al. - were realignment placed back on the B1G agenda - to make a push for inclusion of at least two former Big 8 foes such as Kansas and Oklahoma to renew rivalries and balance the divisions rather than attempt further expansion into the East.
UConn belongs in a P5 conference. I am just having a difficult time envisioning a scenario for UConn to get into the B1G given the ACC GOR and the B1G already passing on Missouri multiple times. It is my hope that the ACC will realize the value of having UConn in the conference and extend an invitation to you if the B1G is not to be.

 

[Adios]

My impression is that Delany et al. really think the addition of Rutgers and Maryland - with the restructure of the divisions to bring OSU, PSU and UM into the East - as well as inclusion of Johns Hopkins for the affiliate membership are enough to gain an East coast presence for the B1G.

East enough for now. Those three schools need to assimilate into the fabric of the B1G culture. Cannot expand fast. We're stranded for a while, but upside is far better than plenty of Power 5 football programs

 

[NickyNewark]

I feel the need to point out that in 2002, Buffalo won their only game of the season against Rutgers. In New Jersey. Only 19K. Their only win ever against a BCS team.

Rutgers only won one game that season, their next game against Army. Attendance at home went as low as 10K that season. They couldn't even sell out a home game against #1 Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Buffalo_Bulls_football_team

The Bulls even lost to Lehigh at home to open the season that year.

We've never had anywhere near as low as 10K for a home crowd since we went BCS, so far. Let's hope the team keeps winning.

Syracuse fans always show up. Their attendance numbers during the Greg Robinson years are impressive.

@Butch,thank's for reminding me! lol!Your not serious about SU's fans are you?

 

[NickyNewark]

East enough for now. Those three schools need to assimilate into the fabric of the B1G culture. Cannot expand fast. We're stranded for a while, but upside is far better than plenty of Power 5 football programs

@Butch,I don't think many midwesterner's grasp the density/power/wealth of the eastern seaboard but fortunately Delany doe's and it would be foolish to leave the last gap wide open for the ACC ! Even the ACC made the mistake of leaving the "key" to eastern dominance open by taking 2 fringe school's (Pitt/SU) instead of the wise move of RU/UConn which would have assured the ACC of relevance at least and probably dominance in the #1 market!It's as obvious to me as the nose on my face!!What on earth were they (ACC) thinking of ?No way the B1G let's the ACC into Connecticut!!In addition I think an east/west add is the way they go as Temple would be the last eastern school of any relevance but not B1G material "by their standard's" but a western Mizzou/Kansas? add to pacify the western B1G school's!