So the SEC wants ND to join a conference

[DarthGrumpy]

While the SEC is a powerful conference, primarily in football, they are still a regional group of universities that, for the most part, are not on the same level as ND, the B1G and others (Vandy being an obvious exception).
Thus, ND is not going to the SEC. ND will preserve the current structure of the P5, outside of a few fridge adds/subtracts, for as long as possible as it allows them to remain independent, which is ND’s primary goal, especially their powerful alumni base.
ND views itself as a truly ‘national’ university with no peer in the regionally based conferences. Plus, they have some bad blood with their most natural partner, the B1G, due to some historical religious issues (not so historical to Ohio St) and more recently when ND flipped-off the B1G to join as an associate member of the new B1G hockey league. They only joined the ACC because the ACC offered a juiced-up Big E sweetheart deal to ND and helped their non-football sports.
The only way that ND will join any conference is if UNC or Texas bail on their current conferences, which would result in the decimation of the ACC or XII respectively and create a P4 with 18 to 24 schools each. In that scenario, ND would likely be cut-off from a football championship game (4 team conference oriented playoff). Thus, ND would join the ACC if the XII died or the B1G if the ACC died.

 

[woomba]

Plus, they have some bad blood with their most natural partner, the B1G, due to some historical religious issues (not so historical to Ohio St) and more recently when ND flipped-off the B1G to join as an associate member of the new B1G hockey league.

Just a small correction here - ND was interested in joining the Big Ten Hockey league as an associate member and was rebuffed, not the other way around.

I also think the whole 'bad blood' thing between ND and the Big Ten is overblown. There is some legit history there between Michigan and ND but that's a sports-only thing and not an institution-wide thing...and it was also 80+ years ago. It's just that they value FB independence over everything else and will do whatever it takes to preserve it.

 

[TerryD]

For good or bad, depending on one' perspective, the pace of things has accelerated including changes in college sports. And things will really accelerate as the pre baby boomers die out.

The points you made in the post I originally responded to have merit. But the dynamics of the current world makes me feel the counter arguments to your position have more merit. Certainly there is an inertia to behavioral change. And the more complex the behavior, such as institutional behavior, the greater the inertia. So what makes me take issue with your post. The things that tend to overcome inertia: the desire for power/money/image. When the value increases for any of these things the rate of change increases.

No one is arguing whether ND has cache. They do. The argument is whether that cache is worth the power/money they are currently getting. This vote by the SEC coaches, imo, was more than just an empty statement. It was the first salvo to challenge the ND paradigm. There are a lot of interests that want to see ND brought down several pegs. And the consensus is shifting away from the belief that ND is a football powerhouse. There are a lot of people in this forum who strongly feel that if ND were in a conference they would struggle and become mediocre if their schedule was more regimented than tailored. IMO, the SEC coaches also feel that way. And imo they have judged ND football correctly. The boost the ACC would get with the initial agreement by ND to fully join their conference could be disastrous to the conference if ND does not perform. The SEC coaches are predicting that would happen.

University leaders had tasted blood when they asserted themselves in demanding a greater share of media money. Egos are getting involved and there will be more and more decision makers who want to assert their control over things. ND, even with its cache, would be the perfect entity for the power three conferences (The ACC and the Texas conference are more reactionary imo) to send a message to the NCAA and the media entities they are associated with, that the universities in these three conferences are the ones controlling things. ND is on thin ice because the network they are affiliated with is not sending monies to any of these conferences. Certainly ND will still have NBC's contract but the loss of the generous bowl agreement they currently have could accelerate ND's football decline and marginalize NBC in the process. The SEC coaches are betting ND will become mediocre either way and that reduces the pie significantly. It would be the same reduction as the choice to squeeze out all the non power five conferences.

Once a wild animal tastes blood, the desire for more blood is increased. And there is a little bit of wild beast in most of us, even those who mask it well.

Well, here are the typical opponents ND has played mostly every year in the past 20 or so years:

Michigan
Michigan State
Purdue
Pitt
Southern Cal
Stanford
Navy
BC

That isn't "regimented"?

What loss of generous bowl agreement? The BCS? ND got $4.5 million if it made a BCS bowl, $1.3 million if it did not. With the playoffs, access bowls, Orange Bowl in play for ND, I am not sure that I know what "generous" bowl ND has lost access to. It has full access to all minor ACC bowls.

I "feel" that your "feeling" is mostly wishful thinking. We will just have to agree to disagree.

My wife and I are heading out in the morning for a 17 day vacation in Scotland and Ireland. I will be out of touch for a while so this may be my last post on this topic (I am sure that makes many happy).

Good luck to UConn this coming season. I am hopeful that the ACC expands soon and adds UConn. I don't want the Big Ten to expand any further into the Northeast.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Exactly. What happens to the Big Ten's plans for the East Coast if Notre Dame joins the ACC as a full member? Heck, what happens to the Big Ten's own home base of Chicago (where ND is still the most popular college sports team)? Who gets into the playoff is an rounding error concern compared to the big dollars that affect 95% of the power conference schools that aren't realistically competing for national championships regularly (those that aren't named Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc.).

Let me repeat this again: NO ONE wants to force Notre Dame to join *a* conference. They only want Notre Dame to join *their* conference. Coaches care about who gets into a playoff, which makes sense because that's an on-the-field matter that affects their job security. However, Notre Dame joining (or not joining) a conference is completely an off-the-field matter that's driven by money, power and prestige that guys like Steve Spurrier are either (a) clueless about or (b) don't care about since they are paid to have a laser-like focus on wins and recruiting.

Believe me: the Big Ten would rather let Notre Dame into the new CFP playoff 1000 times over compared to letting any Group of Five team into it. Notre Dame still makes the Big Ten (and every other power conference) money, but the Group of Five takes money away from them. All complaints about ND arise because they are such a high profile team, which is a de facto indicator of their unique power in college sports (and I say this as a complete Big Ten guy that thinks the average Domer are indoctrinated like the Borg).

This makes sense. But the sec, pac12, and likely the big12 have minimal chances of landing nd. Does the sec care if nd joins acc for FB?

 

[CL82]

Would the B1G care about Notre Dame in the ACC as a full member if some combination of Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas were to join the B1G; especially Texas?

Yes.

 

[Adios]

I feel the need to point out that in 2002, Buffalo won their only game of the season against Rutgers. In New Jersey. Only 19K. Their only win ever against a BCS team.

Rutgers only won one game that season, their next game against Army. Attendance at home went as low as 10K that season. They couldn't even sell out a home game against #1 Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Buffalo_Bulls_football_team

The Bulls even lost to Lehigh at home to open the season that year.

We've never had anywhere near as low as 10K for a home crowd since we went BCS, so far. Let's hope the team keeps winning.

Syracuse fans always show up. Their attendance numbers during the Greg Robinson years are impressive.

 

[B1GALUM]

I am hopeful that the ACC expands soon and adds UConn. I don't want the Big Ten to expand any further into the Northeast.

I am personally supportive of B1G expansion into the east and UConn being included in this expansion; regrettably, I do not think further expansion into the East is on the B1G agenda. My impression is that Delany et al. really think the addition of Rutgers and Maryland - with the restructure of the divisions to bring OSU, PSU and UM into the East - as well as inclusion of Johns Hopkins for the affiliate membership are enough to gain an East coast presence for the B1G.
It is my sense that a concern among the western B1G teams about imbalance with the restructure of the divisions and movement away from the Midwest roots of the conference will be voiced at some point if not already done. I suspect that Nebraska in particular would lobby Delany et al. - were realignment placed back on the B1G agenda - to make a push for inclusion of at least two former Big 8 foes such as Kansas and Oklahoma to renew rivalries and balance the divisions rather than attempt further expansion into the East.
UConn belongs in a P5 conference. I am just having a difficult time envisioning a scenario for UConn to get into the B1G given the ACC GOR and the B1G already passing on Missouri multiple times. It is my hope that the ACC will realize the value of having UConn in the conference and extend an invitation to you if the B1G is not to be.

 

[Adios]

My impression is that Delany et al. really think the addition of Rutgers and Maryland - with the restructure of the divisions to bring OSU, PSU and UM into the East - as well as inclusion of Johns Hopkins for the affiliate membership are enough to gain an East coast presence for the B1G.

East enough for now. Those three schools need to assimilate into the fabric of the B1G culture. Cannot expand fast. We're stranded for a while, but upside is far better than plenty of Power 5 football programs

 

[NickyNewark]

I feel the need to point out that in 2002, Buffalo won their only game of the season against Rutgers. In New Jersey. Only 19K. Their only win ever against a BCS team.

Rutgers only won one game that season, their next game against Army. Attendance at home went as low as 10K that season. They couldn't even sell out a home game against #1 Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Buffalo_Bulls_football_team

The Bulls even lost to Lehigh at home to open the season that year.

We've never had anywhere near as low as 10K for a home crowd since we went BCS, so far. Let's hope the team keeps winning.

Syracuse fans always show up. Their attendance numbers during the Greg Robinson years are impressive.

@Butch,thank's for reminding me! lol!Your not serious about SU's fans are you?

 

[NickyNewark]

East enough for now. Those three schools need to assimilate into the fabric of the B1G culture. Cannot expand fast. We're stranded for a while, but upside is far better than plenty of Power 5 football programs

@Butch,I don't think many midwesterner's grasp the density/power/wealth of the eastern seaboard but fortunately Delany doe's and it would be foolish to leave the last gap wide open for the ACC ! Even the ACC made the mistake of leaving the "key" to eastern dominance open by taking 2 fringe school's (Pitt/SU) instead of the wise move of RU/UConn which would have assured the ACC of relevance at least and probably dominance in the #1 market!It's as obvious to me as the nose on my face!!What on earth were they (ACC) thinking of ?No way the B1G let's the ACC into Connecticut!!In addition I think an east/west add is the way they go as Temple would be the last eastern school of any relevance but not B1G material "by their standard's" but a western Mizzou/Kansas? add to pacify the western B1G school's!

 

[NickyNewark]

Va would be even better but with the GOR I'd guess that's out of the question for the time being!

 

[specialisthusky]

Va would be even better but with the GOR I'd guess that's out of the question for the time being!

Well you can scratch Kansas off your list then as well.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Adios]

@NickyNewark...I'd like to imagine Delany is drooling over Connecticut.

 

[huskymedic]

From ACC Media Day Kick-off:

SportsBizMiss 12:51pm via TweetDeck
Swofford said if Notre Dame decides to join a conf in football, it'll be ACC through 2026/2027 per contract.

 

[NickyNewark]

From ACC Media Day Kick-off:

SportsBizMiss 12:51pm via TweetDeck
Swofford said if Notre Dame decides to join a conf in football, it'll be ACC through 2026/2027 per contract.

@i wonder why nd would be stupid enough to make that public with all the concession's the acc made?i wouldn't hold my breath if i was swoffard!

 

[Adios]

Who barked first? Notre Dame or the SEC?

 

[CL82]

From ACC Media Day Kick-off:

SportsBizMiss 12:51pm via TweetDeck
Swofford said if Notre Dame decides to join a conf in football, it'll be ACC through 2026/2027 per contract.

Welcome to having ND as a conference partner John. Enjoy.

 

[CTGoonie]

Our only hope with regards to ND in the ACC full-time is for the playoff to add weight to conference champions. It will only take 1 year where ND doesn't get in the playoff but finishes in the top 10 for them to seriously think about going in full-time.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The entire arrangement between ND and the ACC was to 1) appease ND’s rabid and very influential alumni base who believe in ‘independence or death’ by gradually moving ND towards a conference affiliation and 2) to give an opt-out from the ACC should the ACC not survive the consolidation from 5 to 4 conferences that is predicted at some point in the future (maybe when the current GOR’s expire?).
ND views itself as a national brand name and does not want to be hemmed in by the ‘regional’ Midwestern based B1G, which, of course, appears no longer to be the case. Outside of Chicago, ND also has stronger ties to the East Coast megapolis (NYC, DC and a lesser extent to Boston) that to the Midwet. Thus, the ACC gives ND the East Coast, which is what it wants, while allowing for partial football independence and a home to its other sport programs.
The next phase of major conference realignment, outside of some fringe adds/subtracts, which UConn may or may not be a part of, will take place when Texas or UNC decides to jumpship from their current homes which will then force ND to join either the ACC or B1G full-time.

 

[frankthetank]

Our only hope with regards to ND in the ACC full-time is for the playoff to add weight to conference champions. It will only take 1 year where ND doesn't get in the playoff but finishes in the top 10 for them to seriously think about going in full-time.

Honestly, it won't. ND alums (who, unlike 99% of schools, truly do control the governance of that institution) are unlike any other breed. Getting a downgrade for not being in a conference means nothing to them. Seriously. (Besides, they're not getting a downgrade with the schedule that they're playing, anyway. Let's not kid ourselves.) In fact, Domers will make that into a rallying cry about the "prejudice against independence" and become more hunkered down than ever. ND has to be literally BARRED from being in the college football playoff in order to even *start* considering to drop independence. Not only is this NOT the case with the new CFP system (which very clearly doesn't attach any weight to conference championships for the 4-team playoff), but they have a deal with the Orange Bowl on top of it (which is more than you can say for any of the Group of Five conferences).

I deal with Domers everyday. If anything, people across the country *underestimate* how crazy this group of people is compared to everyone else. Most people just know groups of T-shirt Irish fans that have more of a casual connection to the school. The people I deal with are actual alums that have spent four years getting completely brainwashed about how special independence is in South Bend. Independence is how they define themselves as an *institution* (NOT just for football). To them, Notre Dame is defined as being independent as much as it is defined as being Catholic. That's why they look at it so differently than 99% of the other college football fans in America - there is zero capitulation from Domers on the independence topic outside of being barred from the national championship by explicit rule (not just by voting habits).

 

[CTGoonie]

Frank - Are you saying that the Domers would rather remain independent than get a spot in the playoff? That's ludicrous. I'm not saying it isn't true but sacrificing a chance for an improved playoff seat to remain independent is just dumb and I thought the Domers were supposed to be smart?

 

[frankthetank]

Frank - Are you saying that the Domers would rather remain independent than get a spot in the playoff? That's ludicrous. I'm not saying it isn't true but sacrificing a chance for an improved playoff seat to remain independent is just dumb and I thought the Domers were supposed to be smart?

YES. It might be ludicrous to you or me, but YES. I'm dead serious. If it's a choice between a short-term playoff spot simply based on voting bias and long-term independence, the ND alumni base will choose independence every time (and the vote wouldn't be particularly close). Once again, it's a bit different if there's actually a hard-and-fast rule against independents being eligible for a playoff (where in that case, there truly is a black-and-white choice between playing in the playoff or independence), but arguing that third party voting bias could work against them would never, ever be enough for Notre Dame alums and, if anything, embolden them with tales of how anti-Catholic Michigan had kept them out of the Big Ten 90 years ago (and now the "big bad public schools" are trying to do the same today). The "ND will get shut of the national championship one of these days and then they'll have to join a conference" argument has been used for decades and Domers are still as crazy as ever about independence.

Now, to be sure, Notre Dame isn't getting shut out of the playoff based on the type of schedule that they play. It would take a fairly large set of coincidences (at least 4 power conference champs with the same or better records as ND) for ND to get jumped by a similarly situated power team. That might be possible, but it would have zero bearing on the Domers with respect to how they think about independence. Domers, believe or not, are actually *crazier* than what most college football fans think, which is scary.

 

[btstimpy]

Honestly, it won't. ND alums (who, unlike 99% of schools, truly do control the governance of that institution) are unlike any other breed. Getting a downgrade for not being in a conference means nothing to them. Seriously. (Besides, they're not getting a downgrade with the schedule that they're playing, anyway. Let's not kid ourselves.) In fact, Domers will make that into a rallying cry about the "prejudice against independence" and become more hunkered down than ever. ND has to be literally BARRED from being in the college football playoff in order to even *start* considering to drop independence. Not only is this NOT the case with the new CFP system (which very clearly doesn't attach any weight to conference championships for the 4-team playoff), but they have a deal with the Orange Bowl on top of it (which is more than you can say for any of the Group of Five conferences).

I deal with Domers everyday. If anything, people across the country *underestimate* how crazy this group of people is compared to everyone else. Most people just know groups of T-shirt Irish fans that have more of a casual connection to the school. The people I deal with are actual alums that have spent four years getting completely brainwashed about how special independence is in South Bend. Independence is how they define themselves as an *institution* (NOT just for football). To them, Notre Dame is defined as being independent as much as it is defined as being Catholic. That's why they look at it so differently than 99% of the other college football fans in America - there is zero capitulation from Domers on the independence topic outside of being barred from the national championship by explicit rule (not just by voting habits).

This is very true. They really like being independent in football. The funny thing is that now this independence boils down to being able to schedule 3 football games more than everyone else in the ACC because the ACC will be scheduling 5 of Notre Dame's football games each season. It also means that Notre Dame will have its own television contract for its home games with NBC too. I don't mean to discount the value of that, but we're only talking 3 football games in reality. The ACC is willing to let Notre Dame keep their NBC Contract if they move to a full schedule of 8 conference games.

 

[btstimpy]

Exactly. What happens to the Big Ten's plans for the East Coast if Notre Dame joins the ACC as a full member? Heck, what happens to the Big Ten's own home base of Chicago (where ND is still the most popular college sports team)? Who gets into the playoff is an rounding error concern compared to the big dollars that affect 95% of the power conference schools that aren't realistically competing for national championships regularly (those that aren't named Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc.).

Let me repeat this again: NO ONE wants to force Notre Dame to join *a* conference. They only want Notre Dame to join *their* conference. Coaches care about who gets into a playoff, which makes sense because that's an on-the-field matter that affects their job security. However, Notre Dame joining (or not joining) a conference is completely an off-the-field matter that's driven by money, power and prestige that guys like Steve Spurrier are either (a) clueless about or (b) don't care about since they are paid to have a laser-like focus on wins and recruiting.

Believe me: the Big Ten would rather let Notre Dame into the new CFP playoff 1000 times over compared to letting any Group of Five team into it. Notre Dame still makes the Big Ten (and every other power conference) money, but the Group of Five takes money away from them. All complaints about ND arise because they are such a high profile team, which is a de facto indicator of their unique power in college sports (and I say this as a complete Big Ten guy that thinks the average Domer are indoctrinated like the Borg).

Notre Dame will be contractually associated with the ACC football conference until 2026-2027. They are independent, but associated. They will be playing 5 games per year, which is 3 less than everyone else in the ACC. But they will be on television on many occasions playing ACC schools. They keep their NBC contract for home games, and they will schedule those 3 extra games on their own, and they have a different arrangement with the playoffs and the top 6 bowls. But in every other matter pertaining to football like lower tier bowl splits and access, they are an ACC school. They will not be looking at any other conference for at least 13 years because the ACC contract stipulates that if Notre Dame decides to join a football conference and be eligible for a conference championship it will be the ACC.

Outside of football, Notre Dame will be fully in the ACC for 24 sports. Chicago as you mention will be seeing a whole lot more ACC going forward than they are used to as will the East.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

@FranktheTank
ND alumni are also loaded like no other American University outside the Ivy League. I remember in the early 2000’s when they had to expand the tarmac at South Send airport to accommodate all of the private jets that fly in for ND football games.
Of course, that just makes UConn’s win at ND in 2009 that much sweeter, even if it did us no good with respect to CR.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

Here's the thing that Spurrier doesn't get apparently. Notre Dame is a national brand. Florida, Texas, Alabama and all the rest just are not national brands on the same level. You might want them to be. You might wish they were, but they just are not. And that is the reason they get treated like all the other conference commissioners. In the ratings game, the SEC might beat out Notre Dame, but no individual SEC team could go head to head over the course of a season. Nobody watches the Longhorn network outside of Austin, and if some numbers are to be believed, few in Austin watch it. there is no "national" market for Florida, and surely none for South Carolina! And that,ol ball caoch, is the reason Notre Dame gets treated as it does.

And that is the reason Spurrier was making his point. Notre Dame needs to play football like the rest of the country. What he really should be advocating is that none (as in zero) major programs schedule Notre Dame. Let them play UMass, Delaware, Montana and Appalachian State or . . . . . join a freakin conference.

 

[TerryD]

And that is the reason Spurrier was making his point. Notre Dame needs to play football like the rest of the country. What he really should be advocating is that none (as in zero) major programs schedule Notre Dame. Let them play UMass, Delaware, Montana and Appalachian State or . . . . . join a freakin conference.

There are no stone tablets handed down from Moses that mandates that every school must play in a football conference.

This Borg like, collective, assimilation mind set is bizarre.

Americans recoil from collective, socialistic organizations in general, but in sports want to force the collective, communal sameness, a one-size-fits-all approach on the unwilling.

There is no reason that every school must have the cookie cutter sameness.

ND, BYU and others certainly can compete as football independents.