September 2019 WNBA Discussions, scores, game info, pictures | Page 20 | The Boneyard

September 2019 WNBA Discussions, scores, game info, pictures

bballnut90

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Sorry, but if Plum had a dreadful regular season then what would you call J. Young's season? One is a rookie compared to a third year player but look at the stats.

Plum 8.6 ppg .365 FG .357 3 PT FG
Young 6.6 ppg .322 FG .318 3 PT FG


If one is dreadful, the other is even worse than dreadful. Let's be honest.

Plum is a 3rd year pro who was expected to be a big scorer on the perimeter after a strong 2nd season. Vegas was relying on her to be a 4th scoring option and she wasnt able to deliver during the regular season.

Young is a rookie who should be entering her senior year in college. She also was playing a brand new position and had one of the best assist/to ratios in the league. She was an excellent perimeter defender and wasnt relied upon to score. She took particularly fewer shots than Plum, especially from deep. Yeah, her percentages are bad but she overall performed much better as a PG than Plum did as a SG this season. Plum finished the year on a strong note as PG and appears to be a better fit going forward, but she was flat bad this year.
 

bballnut90

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Well nice to see you respond when the game is over. I still stand by my opinion that the Aces star players are better now, and definitely will be in the future. Off games are common especially for young players and teams. If Connecticut doesn’t win the finals this year they never will. They have the experience factor and that sometimes trumps talent. The Aces has the brightest future of all the teams though, especially if Cambage returns. They’ll also have room to get better bench players this off season. They're just getting started IMO.

But I digress, The Sun and The Mystics deserves to be in the finals so good luck to them both.

What makes you think it is this year or bust for the Sun? Their entire roster is in their 20s and the nucleus has been playing together for 3 years and appear to have great chemistry. They also have Jonquel Jones, the best young post in the league, along with an excellent coach. Connecticut doesnt lose anyone due to Olympic play and probably return all of their starters next year.
 

nwhoopfan

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she overall performed much better as a PG than Plum did as a SG this season. Plum finished the year on a strong note as PG and appears to be a better fit going forward, but she was flat bad this year.

I think you nailed it at the end there. That's kind of what I was referring to as the failed experiment. Young is a jack of all trades player who could probably play multiple positions. Playing Plum--all year--at a position she wasn't very well suited to while not letting her play the position she is suited to, she was fairly much set up to fail. Laimbeer couldn't figure that out all season but recognized it 4 minutes into the first playoff game? Really?

She took particularly fewer shots than Plum

Not really. 293 vs. 236. Over 34 games that's a difference of less than 2 per game.
 

eebmg

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So far this is all I've seen out of her in terms of postgame comments:


Ok. So back to being confused. What is meant by 'Liz Crying'? Just the fact that she is just tearing up on the sidelines after the loss??? :confused::confused::confused:
 
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Ok. So back to being confused. What is meant by 'Liz Crying'? Just the fact that she is just tearing up on the sidelines after the loss??? :confused::confused::confused:
After the game, ESPN showed her on the court amongst her teammates, very emotional with tears running down her cheeks, obviously disappointed after a hard fought series loss.
 

eebmg

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After the game, ESPN showed her on the court amongst her teammates, very emotional with tears running down her cheeks, obviously disappointed after a hard fought series loss.

Ok. Than Sykes is in the wrong. Especially since Cambage did all she could in defeat. All caught up. Thanks
 
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What makes you think it is this year or bust for the Sun? Their entire roster is in their 20s and the nucleus has been playing together for 3 years and appear to have great chemistry. They also have Jonquel Jones, the best young post in the league, along with an excellent coach. Connecticut doesnt lose anyone due to Olympic play and probably return all of their starters next year.

Majority of the team are free agents especially the starting 5
 

Dillon77

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Plum is a 3rd year pro who was expected to be a big scorer on the perimeter after a strong 2nd season. Vegas was relying on her to be a 4th scoring option and she wasnt able to deliver during the regular season.

Young is a rookie who should be entering her senior year in college. She also was playing a brand new position and had one of the best assist/to ratios in the league. She was an excellent perimeter defender and wasnt relied upon to score. She took particularly fewer shots than Plum, especially from deep. Yeah, her percentages are bad but she overall performed much better as a PG than Plum did as a SG this season. Plum finished the year on a strong note as PG and appears to be a better fit going forward, but she was flat bad this year.
I think you nailed it at the end there. That's kind of what I was referring to as the failed experiment. Young is a jack of all trades player who could probably play multiple positions. Playing Plum--all year--at a position she wasn't very well suited to while not letting her play the position she is suited to, she was fairly much set up to fail. Laimbeer couldn't figure that out all season but recognized it 4 minutes into the first playoff game? Really?

Good morning. I've read your (2nd person plural usage, please) give and take on Plum and Young on this thread. Having watched Ms. Plum more than a few times during her pro career and Ms. Young for virtually every game of her college career, I'll add a few points.

- Jackie Young is an exceedingly good athlete and basketball player who can easily play the 1, 2 or 3.
She can score and she can shoot. (you don't become the all-time leading scorer in Indiana HS history without being able to do so.) Yes, she didn't have a good year, but I think that was due to a lot of factors, from learning a new position to a bit of hoops burnout to....

- Deferring, probably to a fault. She did this at Notre Dame with her upperclassmen. In fact, Muffet McGraw was looking forward to Jackie's senior year so she could "unleash" her. By going pro and being switched to point guard, she -- what else -- deferred..... Hard to turn the switch on....

- Laimbeer plays hunches and sticks with what he thinks is working. I've seen this time after time with the Shock, the Liberty and now here with the Aces. He figures he has the players and he'll use them. Knd of a Parcells move, but is he telling his players that the pendulum can swing by quarter?

- In my mind, PLum can play the point, but she likes to have the option to score. And Young will do what the coach wants and she thinks her teammates need. But I'm not sure that's maximizing her talents. She can use her "pick-up" speed to slash to the hoop.

- On top of this comparison, you've got to get the ball to Cambage & Wilson, which screams "pass first."

- So who will do this better? Plum? Young? Aided by a returning Lindsay Allen, who is much more traditional field general?
Or pull a reordering: have Plum man the PG (backed up by Allen), have K-Mac play the 2 and move Jackie back to the 3, which was her initial (and most effective) role at ND?

That said, the Aces got to the semifinals against the best regular-season team in the league. Nice situation to be in. But I agree some thinking needs to be done for next season.
 

eebmg

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Very nice complementary article on Meesseman (and that is before she put a stake in the heart of the Aces last night).



Hard to imagine now she was taken 19th in the 2013 draft. Of course it is understandable at the time but wow.
 

CamrnCrz1974

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Did you personally think playing Parker 11 minutes and pulling his best players early in the 4th was justified assuming the goal was to win an elimination game? Not challenging, just curious.

@psconn , I apologize for my delayed response, as I am just catching up on my Boneyard notifications (I know, I should get my priorities in order and check the BY multiple times per day).

Here are my thoughts (for which I am using headings to break up discussion topics to make it easier to read).

Game #3: Minutes and Plus/Minus Numbers for Candace Parker
Candace Parker played 11 minutes in the Game 3 loss to Connecticut. She did not play at all in the second quarter. While she played in the third quarter, she only took one shot. She went to the bench with 5:54 left in the third quarter and did not return to the game.

If you look at the overall +/- numbers, one might speculate that it was a massive error to not play Parker more, given her +/- number of -4 in a game in which the Sparks lost by 22.

Game #3: Minute Distribution for Candace Parker
But when Parker left (for good) in the third quarter (5:54 to play in that stanza, the Sun led the Sparks by 15 points (51-36). With 3:19 to go, the lead was cut to 11 points (55-44), as Chiney Ogwumike – the player substitution for Parker – made two free throws to cut the deficit to that margin. About two minutes later (with 1:12 to go in the third), however, the margin ballooned to 19, with CT reeled off eight straight points, pushing the lead to 63-44.

It is common for starters to sit out the end of Q1/beginning of Q2 and the end of Q3/beginning of Q4, for rest. Typically, the majority of starters will go back into the game after about 2-2.5 minutes in Q4.

But at that point, Parker had only played 11 minutes, so she (presumably) did not need rest. And, frankly, given that that it was an elimination game, the eye test/casual WNBA fan would say that Parker – a former multiple-MVP winner and multiple All-Star performer – should have returned in the third quarter, after the lead went from 11 to 19, given that she is (arguably) the Sparks best all-around player (though some may question this, with Nneka’s recent MVP and Chelsea Gray’s emergence as the top young PG/playmaker in the W).

Simply put, as Brian Agler stated (regarding Parker’s benching), “Star players have to play.”

LAS-CON Series Advanced Statistics for Candace Parker
That being said, the advanced stats tell an interesting story in the entire series.

NETRTG (OFFRTG – DEFRTG) – which measures the team's point differential per 100 possessions while she is on court – shows the following for Candace Parker:
  • Game #1: – 25.8 (31 minutes)
  • Game #2: – 41.2 (26 minutes)
  • Game #3: – 23.5 (11 minutes)
TORATIO ((TO * 100) / (POSS)) – which measures the number of turnovers a player averages per 100 possessions – shows the following for Candace Parker:
  • Game #1: 10.0 (31 minutes)
  • Game #2: 25.0 (26 minutes)
  • Game #3: 18.2 (11 minutes)
Playing Devil’s (Fisher’s) Advocate, the advanced stats paint a picture of Candace Parker being far less effective as the series progressed – and incredibly ineffective in the limited minutes in Game #3. If the team is down 2-0, facing elimination, and has the choice between an increasingly ineffective team leader or trying to see if there is anyone else who could provide a “spark” (pun intended), then one can understand Fisher’s thought process in this respect.

Per The Athletic’s Brady Klopfer, Derek Fisher stated:

“It wasn’t an injury or any specific ‘This is why I’m not going to play Candace,’ but just trying to find energy, find a spark, find physicality and things that we just were continuing to search for throughout the course of the game.
“I know it’s Candace Parker and we’re going to try and make it about her 11 minutes, but it was just about trying to do something different that I thought would try and help us win.”


CamrnCrz1974’s Analysis and Parting Thoughts
Fisher had a very successful first year (22-12, #3 seed) as the Sparks’ HC, in spite of injuries to Parker and Alana Beard and Riquna Williams’ suspension.

That being said, Candace Parker’s minutes in Game #3 certainly comes across an odd coaching strategy for Derek Fisher in an elimination game – not just in Q3 and beyond, but for the entire game. While it can be seen as understandable, in terms of advanced statistics, wanting to find a spark, etc., it still does play well (especially with Parker’s pointed statements about her not being told the reason why and apparent complete lack of communication between Fisher and Parker as to Game #3 strategy).

The curious decision regarding Parker’s minutes/playing time in Game #3 is likely going to be what people remember going into the offseason and next year.

And Parker is only signed through 2020 (she will make $119,500 on the last year of her contract). Will this incident be the catalyst for an irreparable rift between Parker and Fisher, such that she demands a trade? Will she sit out to force a trade (ala Sylvia Fowles, circa 2015)? Or will the two have a sit-down session (or will GM Penny Toler facilitate a meeting) to discuss what transpired in Game #3, hash out their differences, and get on the same page for 2020 (when LA will have to replace Alana Beard and possibly Tierra Ruffin Pratt – who is a free agent – as well as sorting out the crowded PF/C frontcourt situation (Parker, Nneka, Chiney, Vadeeva, Kalani).

Stay tuned.

@ucbart , @EricLA
 

EricLA

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Good stuff as always @CamrnCrz1974 . Anyone who knows me, knows I can't stand Tennessee, and Parker is my least favorite player, pretty much of all time. Primadonna, entitled, didn't do her teammates any favors during the US National team selection process, big whiner on the court, inconsistent effort at best and lazy at worst, and left off Team USA for disclosed and undisclosed reasons, burning multiple bridges in the process...

Not sure what Fisher saw, or didn't see, but specifically mentioned needing a spark, and doing something different to try to help the team win. Not too hard to read between the lines there.
 

psconn

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...That being said, Candace Parker’s minutes in Game #3 certainly comes across an odd coaching strategy for Derek Fisher in an elimination game – not just in Q3 and beyond, but for the entire game. While it can be seen as understandable, in terms of advanced statistics, wanting to find a spark, etc., it still does play well (especially with Parker’s pointed statements about her not being told the reason why and apparent complete lack of communication between Fisher and Parker...

Sooooo... no? ;)





Just kidding, thanks for taking the time. In the bolded phrase, you meant "doesn't", right?
 

eebmg

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Good morning.
When the L.A. Sparks were reduced to 7 or 8 players during the regular season, Coach Fisher was mixing and matching matchups on an almost quarterly basis and got contributions from everyone, including rookies Brown and Mabrey. Vibes felt good. Then everyone came back and it almost seemed like the returning players expected things to go back to "normal," while the slightly revised approaches went out the door. It worked, to some degree, closing out the season and against a dinged-up Seattle team, but not against the class teams of the league.

I'll be very interested to see in what direction Sparks management goes here. Parker and the O sisters appear to be in L.A., come whatever and the backcourt is wildly up and down (does one need both Williams and Gray?).
Shame about the frontcourt, because you've got some serious young talent at the post, sitting on the bench.


Some new stuff coming out (Ramona Shelbourne) about the Sparks, Fisher, Penny Toler (GM) and Parker filled with the juicy 'racial epithet' swirl.

 

UConnCat

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What a sh$t show.

Given this reporter's history there is no doubt Parker is a big source for this article. First four words of the story "Candace Parker looked dejected." Might as well title this piece is "Throwing Fisher and Toler under the bus by Candace Parker."

Toler has to be fired, btw. Should happen today.
 

triaddukefan

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Some new stuff coming out (Ramona Shelbourne) about the Sparks, Fisher, Penny Toler (GM) and Parker filled with the juicy 'racial epithet' swirl.



woah.gif
 

psconn

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Some new stuff coming out (Ramona Shelbourne) about the Sparks, Fisher, Penny Toler (GM) and Parker filled with the juicy 'racial epithet' swirl.


Wow. That's way worse than I suspected. Major changes are needed, and that may start with the GM. I'm sure Chiney doesn't regret her decision to abandon the Sun (she still has her other career and playing with her sister), but dang, what a huge negative culture reversal. From face-of-the-franchise darling to a bench player at a dumpster fire. Liz Cambage would have been an interesting addition to that [Molotov] cocktail. She's gotta be thanking her lucky stars she didn't get her initial demand.

I suspect once the management issues get resolved, LA will quickly recover. Location, location, location.
 

TheFarmFan

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Some new stuff coming out (Ramona Shelbourne) about the Sparks, Fisher, Penny Toler (GM) and Parker filled with the juicy 'racial epithet' swirl.

Yeesh. I mean, there's no universe where if a white male GM had used that language to address the players, folks wouldn't be calling for his head, or at least for a suspension and fine. Because the crazy part is that she doesn't even deny doing it! I realize there's always context to these things, but I don't see how that didn't cross a line. And this sounds like a very toxic environment, all around.

Mostly, I just feel bad for Nneka. She carries herself with such dignity, grace, and workmanship and is such a role model, but it's hard for her to shine when there's so much louder and distracting nonsense going on around her.
 

Carnac

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Wow. That's way worse than I suspected. Major changes are needed, and that may start with the GM. I'm sure Chiney doesn't regret her decision to abandon the Sun (she still has her other career and playing with her sister), but dang, what a huge negative culture reversal. From face-of-the-franchise darling to a bench player at a dumpster fire. Liz Cambage would have been an interesting addition to that [Molotov] cocktail. She's gotta be thanking her lucky stars she didn't get her initial demand.

I suspect once the management issues get resolved, LA will quickly recover. Location, location, location.

I said the same exact thing you said here in another thread. I also used the term “dumpster fire”. I’m reading this comment for the first time at 7:01 pm est on Sunday.
 

Plebe

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All-WNBA teams announced today:

First team:
Elena Delle Donne (215 pts.) (unanimous 1st team pick)
Courtney Vandersloot (197 pts.)
Brittney Griner (191 pts.)
Chelsea Gray (175 pts.)
Natasha Howard (158 pts.)

Second team:
Jonquel Jones (150 pts.)
Nneka Ogwumike (146 pts.)
Liz Cambage (65 pts.)
Diamond DeShields (54 pts.)
Odyssey Sims (48 pts.)

First time since 2001 that no UConn player is selected.

 

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