San Antonio - MoJeff & Plum

[YellwJcket999]

I think the "ankle still injured" is rather curious. She is injured enough that her quickness and shot is effected yet is healthy enough to start of Jefferson. That alone suggests she is not injured.

Moriah's last five games average: ~15pts, ~2stls. Her performance suggests that her knee is not effecting her. Some of the comments above infer that Moriah is hurt and that is why Plum is starting over her.

Got it: One person is healthy enough to start yet injured enough that her performance is severly effected. The other person is injured enough that she cannot start but healthy enough to post numbers at a rate greater than her rookie season average.

Are we saying the coach is so concerned about the health of one player to sit them but willing to put another player (injured) at risk by playing them when they are not healthy?
------------------------
Why bring up KML? What does she have to do with starting the best guard for the SA Stars?
We are talking about who is better to play at the moment: Plum or Jefferson

 

[OldAlum]

I think initially Plum got the start because Moriah was hurt. Also SAN has some games where they seemed to fade in the later stages so it may have been a strategy to have Moriah for her limited minutes later in the game. They also might have felt it was good for the rookie to have a chance when the game was just beginning rather than coming in when the game was going south. I believe that Plum started the Seattle game also because of the location Maybe hoping that would get her back on track. Moriah already is getting starter minutes in some games (though she is still affected by wearing that big brace) so she may go back to her starter role soon.

I am a bit confused about how much they have Moriah play off the ball. Actually the whole offense needs work!

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well, a journalist who watched her during her UW career and then watched her on Sunday said she is not moving the way she did before, but if you think she's not really injured and the ankle thing is just an excuse, go for it.

 

[rugbymate]

The Jefferson/McBride backcourt could, at some point, be one of the best, if not the best in the league. Not sure I see Plum being a starter unless they go three guard offense. Plum will never be the point guard Mo is and I think McBride is the superior shooting guard. Plum is in a difficult spot but maybe she improves with time as many college kids do while making the transition to the bigger, stronger, faster WNBA. San Antonio really needs help on the boards. Maybe Plum could be part of a transaction that works for both SA and Plum.

 

[UcMiami]

I think San Antonio has screwed the pooch in drafting the last two years - they had a team that had two star quality players in McBride (SG/Wing) and Robinson (PG.) Both of those players were USA NT pool players. The rest of the roster was cannon fodder - mid-rank WNBA players few if any of whom would start on any other team in the league and on the better teams might not even make the roster.

SA entertained all sorts of offers for their #1 draft pick this past year and reportedly pissed off most of the folks that talked to them to draft Plum reportedly against the wishes of their coach. The previous year they were also inundated with offers for their #2 draft pick (Jefferson) who most people recognized as worthy of a #1A status and being the best PG prospect since Sue Bird went #1 in 2002. I can understand the 2016 lottery choice, though the value being placed on it was greater in trade than that placed on the #1 choice this year. With a team of little talent, SA would have been in better position both in 2016 and 2017 if they had gotten multiple players instead of duplicate the guard strength on the team they already had. At least in trading Robinson they got a serviceable center but one not likely to ever threaten the national team pool like the player they traded.

In successive drafts they have now drafted: 2nd behind an all time great to be Stewart, Moriah; and 1st in a weak draft Plum - both PGs. In order to make any sense of the draft strategy, they traded away Robinson, but they are still stuck with two PGs under 5' 9" that really aren't likely to be playing at the same time.

As far as Plum is concerned she has played 11 WNBA games so it is pretty early to bury her. She is playing on a terrible team which certainly doesn't help, but the WNBA is populated by first round draft picks that struggled in their first few years - including lottery picks who had really poor freshman seasons.

As for Jefferson - I haven't watched all the games this season but she does not look fully healthy to me and the brace she is wearing on her knee is huge. I wrote in one of the game threads I would be much happier if she just shut it down this season and got healthy - she may not be doing any further damage, but I am pretty sure playing is not helping her recover. She looks as quick, but she doesn't appear to me to be playing as she did last year.

NB - The other TX team drafted Diggins #3 (three to see booby prize) and Sims #2 another pair of PGs who didn't coexist very well - they have since traded Sims. Those were two other lottery picks who struggled significantly as rookies similar to how Plum is doing.

 

[Geew1992]

I think San Antonio has screwed the pooch in drafting the last two years - they had a team that had two star quality players in McBride (SG/Wing) and Robinson (PG.) Both of those players were USA NT pool players. The rest of the roster was cannon fodder - mid-rank WNBA players few if any of whom would start on any other team in the league and on the better teams might not even make the roster.

SA entertained all sorts of offers for their #1 draft pick this past year and reportedly pissed off most of the folks that talked to them to draft Plum reportedly against the wishes of their coach. The previous year they were also inundated with offers for their #2 draft pick (Jefferson) who most people recognized as worthy of a #1A status and being the best PG prospect since Sue Bird went #1 in 2002. I can understand the 2016 lottery choice, though the value being placed on it was greater in trade than that placed on the #1 choice this year. With a team of little talent, SA would have been in better position both in 2016 and 2017 if they had gotten multiple players instead of duplicate the guard strength on the team they already had. At least in trading Robinson they got a serviceable center but one not likely to ever threaten the national team pool like the player they traded.

In successive drafts they have now drafted: 2nd behind an all time great to be Stewart, Moriah; and 1st in a weak draft Plum - both PGs. In order to make any sense of the draft strategy, they traded away Robinson, but they are still stuck with two PGs under 5' 9" that really aren't likely to be playing at the same time.

As far as Plum is concerned she has played 11 WNBA games so it is pretty early to bury her. She is playing on a terrible team which certainly doesn't help, but the WNBA is populated by first round draft picks that struggled in their first few years - including lottery picks who had really poor freshman seasons.

As for Jefferson - I haven't watched all the games this season but she does not look fully healthy to me and the brace she is wearing on her knee is huge. I wrote in one of the game threads I would be much happier if she just shut it down this season and got healthy - she may not be doing any further damage, but I am pretty sure playing is not helping her recover. She looks as quick, but she doesn't appear to me to be playing as she did last year.

NB - The other TX team drafted Diggins #3 (three to see booby prize) and Sims #2 another pair of PGs who didn't coexist very well - they have since traded Sims. Those were two other lottery picks who struggled significantly as rookies similar to how Plum is doing.

Remember, Robinson was injured. That could be a major reason MoJeff was picked 2nd. The rest, who knows

 

[stwainfan]

Don't come in here Jewel.

 

[UcMiami]

Don't come in here Jewel.

I like Harrison and think she will have a good WNBA career if her legs hold up. I doubt she will be an All Star or NT candidate, but that doesn't mean she can't be productive - it is early days in her career given that she enter the league on injured reserve. I do think Robinson at a different position is likely to have a more illustrious career.

Remember, Robinson was injured. That could be a major reason MoJeff was picked 2nd. The rest, who knows

I didn't really disagree with the Jefferson pick, except that it was a very long term pick - they should have been able to get two WNBA starters in trade for that pick (a mid-first round pick plus a decent player.) For this years first they probably could have gotten a high first round this year plus a first rounder next year in what is likely to be a very deep draft.

 

[stwainfan]

I like Harrison and think she will have a good WNBA career if her legs hold up. I doubt she will be an All Star or NT candidate, but that doesn't mean she can't be productive - it is early days in her career given that she enter the league on injured reserve. I do think Robinson at a different position is likely to have a more illustrious career.

I didn't really disagree with the Jefferson pick, except that it was a very long term pick - they should have been able to get two WNBA starters in trade for that pick (a mid-first round pick plus a decent player.) For this years first they probably could have gotten a high first round this year plus a first rounder next year in what is likely to be a very deep draft.

I do think that she is having a break out year. She has set some new career highs this year. Once she got the chance to play regularly. Just like she did in college after her freshman year.

 

[YellwJcket999]

....
As far as Plum is concerned she has played 11 WNBA games so it is pretty early to bury her. She is playing on a terrible team which certainly doesn't help, but the WNBA is populated by first round draft picks that struggled in their first few years - including lottery picks who had really poor freshman seasons.

As for Jefferson - I haven't watched all the games this season but she does not look fully healthy to me and the brace she is wearing on her knee is huge. I wrote in one of the game threads I would be much happier if she just shut it down this season and got healthy - she may not be doing any further damage, but I am pretty sure playing is not helping her recover. She looks as quick, but she doesn't appear to me to be playing as she did last year.

NB - The other TX team drafted Diggins #3 (three to see booby prize) and Sims #2 another pair of PGs who didn't coexist very well - they have since traded Sims. Those were two other lottery picks who struggled significantly as rookies similar to how Plum is doing.

I have watched all of the Stars games this year. We have differences of opinion. Agree to disagree.
Jefferson looked a little tentative her first game back but after that she has been clicking on all cylinders. She is ever bit explosive off the dribble and fast on the break.

Like I mentioned before, in her last five games she is producing greater than her rookie season average.(coming off a season high 24 pts, 3ast, 2 stls). She needed 3 more points to match last seasons/career high of 27. If she isn't playing as well as last year she is damn close.

Sylar D, Odyssey S and Moriah did not struggle significantly as Plum. Plum has been touted as the once in a lifetime player, WNBA ready, a transcendent scorer. There were a few on this board claiming she would have an immediate Michael Jordan esque impact.
I'm still of the "let's wait and see" opinion of Plum. The season is still early.

Here are numbers for comparison:

• SD (1st 11 games) 11ppg, 5 ast, 1.3 stl.
• OS (1st 11 games) 11ppg, 4 ast, 1.7 stl.
• MJ (1st 11 games) 10ppg, 4 ast, 1.6 stl
  
• MJ (2017) 11ppg, 4 ast, 2 stl
  
• KP (1st 11 games) 4ppg, 2 ast, 0.7 stl

At this point KP produces about half of MJeff's production. Logically I can't justify starting her over Jefferson.

 

[Alydar]

I didn't really disagree with the Jefferson pick, except that it was a very long term pick - they should have been able to get two WNBA starters in trade for that pick (a mid-first round pick plus a decent player.) For this years first they probably could have gotten a high first round this year plus a first rounder next year in what is likely to be a very deep draft.

Nobody ever built a championship contender by trading away elite players for second level depth. Trading away Jefferson would be a mistake for almost every team in the league. And I doubt there was a team with two 1st round picks that could have helped SA this year. And if Plum was worth it this year then she should be worth it next year. SA could easily end up with the 1st pick and 2 other high picks. Given the depth of talent in next year'd draft, next year at this time SA could have Wilson, Jefferson and at least one other elite player that could form the core of a title contender at some point down the rode. Trading players like Jefferson for marginal "starters" may take a team off the floor of the league but it will never even make them a second round playoff team. You need a couple of top level players for that. You only trade them if you are getting equal value in return. Now Plum for say, DeShields, Turner, Mitchell or Williams and a lower end 1st round pick like Nurse would be smart moves.

The best move for SA would be to showcase Plum, be a lottery team and then trade her before the next draft.

 

[UcMiami]

Nobody ever built a championship contender by trading away elite players for second level depth. Trading away Jefferson would be a mistake for almost every team in the league. And I doubt there was a team with two 1st round picks that could have helped SA this year. And if Plum was worth it this year then she should be worth it next year. SA could easily end up with the 1st pick and 2 other high picks. Given the depth of talent in next year'd draft, next year at this time SA could have Wilson, Jefferson and at least one other elite player that could form the core of a title contender at some point down the rode. Trading players like Jefferson for marginal "starters" may take a team off the floor of the league but it will never even make them a second round playoff team. You need a couple of top level players for that. You only trade them if you are getting equal value in return. Now Plum for say, DeShields, Turner, Mitchell or Williams and a lower end 1st round pick like Nurse would be smart moves.

The best move for SA would be to showcase Plum, be a lottery team and then trade her before the next draft.

The question in my mind is would SA be better this year with a line up of:
Jonquil Jones, McBride, Robinson and Chelsea Grey (or Harrison) vs. McBride and Jefferson (because that is what they probably could have gotten for their #2 pick in 2016 - I think Jefferson is potentially better than all of those players, but she is one of 5 starters on a talent deficient team and duplicated the strength of the team she joined. I have no real issue with Hughes choosing to stand pat and get Jefferson, but it is certainly debatable.

The 2017 draft was not - it sounded like SA was looking for a 2016 draft pick valuation (Stewart #1, Jefferson #1A) for their 2017 #1 draft pick when no one equated Plum (or any other player) to Stewart and very few equated anyone to Jefferson and saw the 2017 draft as significantly weaker at the top. Add to that Plum again duplicated the strength of the SA team, and that their coach didn't appear to want her. Chicago was reportedly expecting to trade their #2 pick (Coates or whoever) plus a player or an additional pick this year or next which was pretty decent value. That SA didn't pull that trigger makes no sense to me.

There are certainly a few fans who dream big dreams for Plum but not many believe she is likely to be a transcendent player and I haven't seen a coach or GM talk in those sorts of terms at any point. I think it is much too early to say how good/disappointing she will be, but ... I think her value at the end of this year will be less than her value as the presumptive #1 pick was pre-draft. The fact that SA in your scenario would be trying to move her after a year in itself would decrease her value. (Similar to Robinson I think being less valued because teams could see that SA had a log jam at guard.)

 

[triaddukefan]

GRAY not Grey

 

[HGN]

San Antonio is doing what it has to do to put itself in position to get better..........By not playing its best PG. Why play a player that can lead you to more victories than what you think you need to put you in position to get the #1 pick in the Draft?

Basically , I think SA is trying to tank in order to put itself in better draft position. They don't need a Deshields , or Gabby , I think they could be eyeing Wilson. Wilson would give them something they need badly. A scoring threat in the middle. Along with defense and rebounding. Then with Mo , K-Mac , and Wilson , SA could be on its way to respectability.

JMHO.

 

[Kaizen]

DAL 0-11, SA 5-8
SA has a better coach .... we will know today

 

[huskeynut]

DAL 0-11, SA 5-8
SA has a better coach .... we will know today

Not to be a pain - but -you have the won/ loss records reversed. SA is 0 - 11. Dallas is 5 - 8.

 

[Kaizen]

Not to be a pain - but -you have the won/ loss records reversed. SA is 0 - 11. Dallas is 5 - 8.

Sorry, my bad. How can I make this mistake...Thanks.

 

[CocoHusky]

San Antonio is doing what it has to do to put itself in position to get better.....By not playing its best PG. Why play a player that can lead you to more victories than what you think you need to put you in position to get the #1 pick in the Draft?
Basically , I think SA is trying to tank in order to put itself in better draft position. They don't need a Deshields , or Gabby , I think they could be eyeing Wilson. Wilson would give them something they need badly. A scoring threat in the middle. Along with defense and rebounding. Then with Mo , K-Mac , and Wilson , SA could be on its way to respectability.
JMHO.

The WNBA changed the lottery formula in 2015 and percentages are based on two years cumulative worst record. So SA would have to have started tanking last year to maximize its chance of getting Wilson next year.
WNBA Announces Rules Changes To Draft Lottery Format - WNBA.com - Official Site of the WNBA
Although Wilson is a terrific player I don't believe she is that generational player worth tanking for. Before the Turner injury & Steven transfer the 2018 draft was shaping up to be three terrific (perhaps virtually equal) players at the top in Turner, Stevens, & Wilson. 2018 could still have 2 and one player a full year removed from surgery. Gabby 2016-17 season performance crashed the party and may have reshuffled the order. DeShields remains an enigma, professional GM tend to overlook the things us BYers would never overlook. Although you say SA doesn't "need" a Gabby or DeShields either would make excellent trade bait.

 

[reno tony]

WOW, so much hate for Plum. She is just playing when the coaches tell her to play and I don't think anyone here really knows what is going on with the injuries or the future plans of the team. Nice to talk about it but who really knows?

 

[Shades]

Basically , I think SA is trying to tank in order to put itself in better draft position.

They don't have to try. It's just happening naturally. They're so far in the lead for the best odds in the 2018 lottery, they don't have to worry that winning some games will ruin that.

 

[CL82]

I think it is as simple as a starting guard is more valuable in a trade than a back up guard.

 

[Shades]

Although Wilson is a terrific player I don't believe she is that generational player worth tanking for.

I think the way Tina Charles is playing NOW is what I expect from Wilson, only quicker like in maybe 3 or 4 years.

Although you say SA doesn't "need" a Gabby or DeShields either would make excellent trade bait.

San Antonio could use all they can get, but I'm sure Wilson would be their first choice.

 

[Kaizen]

I think it is as simple as a starting guard is more valuable in a trade than a back up guard.

I don't understand that SA just had a #1 draft this year, and is planning to trade this #1 draft for next year's #1 draft?

 

[CL82]

I don't understand that SA just had a #1 draft this year, and is planning to trade this #1 draft for next year's #1 draft?

If they plan on keeping Plum then the move is to give her confidence. If they aren't planning on keeping her then, an argument can be made that merely being a starter makes her more valuable.

 

[triaddukefan]

It wouldn't totally surprise me to see Chicago take Wilson at #1 ...... and San Antonio drafting Jordin Canada at #2