Russell down to 2

[Justavisitor]

IMHO, the TN pundits haven't taken Hollly's training wheels off yet. I saw probably 8 or 9 LV games last year, and it looked like the Keystone Cops. No chemistry, no knowledge of what the battle plan was at any time..... except for that one good home game vs. Kentucky, when they looked great. No settling on starting lineup, until late in season, when (would love to know who decided this one) it was deemed that the 5 seniors were the best bet for starters.

You can not use the injury excuse for Louisville and fail to recognize the injury situation at TN. Line ups were a revolving door mainly because of injuries. Had Kelley Cain remained injury free, she would have been the starting center and that would not have changed. Had Vicki Baugh not been injured, she would not have been subject to being in and out of the line ups, while playing sometimes and not playing at all on other occassions. She was day to day for her entire senior year and not even that available the prior year. Had TN not had the injury with Brewer, Glory, a power forward and not remotely a center, would not have played one minute at the center spot, but she spent most of her time at that position due to injuries. She would have played the 4 exclusively. Had Cait and Avant not gone through injuries so severe that they had to totally abandon the sport they love, Shekinna doesn't spend one minute at the point guard spot and neither does Meighan. These aren't excuses. These are facts and to ignore that these things changed the dynamics of TN is just plain ludicrous. So yes, the line ups changed, but had all of those talented players remained healthy, then other talented players would not have been playing out of position and been shuffled through the line ups as often as they were.

Pat stayed out of the game situations......... I guess what I expected from HW was more authority, a lot more order, and for her to stand on the courage of her convictions. If I was Simmons, I would transfer out. First I am starting then I am not, I get into a game for a couple of minutes, then I am out.

Pat absolutely did not stay out of the games. She was coaching on the bench, including providing input to Holly and the staff. Pat was still the head coach and Holly made it no secret that TN was still Pat's team. She stated on several occassions that Pat was her boss and it was still Pat's team. Holly no longer has to coach in that manner. Not only that, Dean and Mickie did not report to Holly and if you don't think this makes a difference, then you're kidding yourself. Now, the assistants are there because they were chosen by Holly and they report to Holly. She's the boss. As for Simmons, she knew exactly why she wasn't playing. Coaching doesn't just happen during game and Pat has always stated that playing time is earned in practice. There's plenty of dialogue between coach and players outside of just the games and Simmons knew exactly what the situation was. However, by seasons end, Simmons was extremely happy with Holly and her playing time. Watch the post game interview from the Kansas game and it's quite obvious. Sometimes players need tough love. Great coaches recognize when players have something else deep within them that can make them much better players and great coaches will do everything they can to get it out of them. It's called developing player and UConn fans know all about this. Perhaps if Shoni got some tough love, she'd stop jacking up shots, run the offense, and utilize her teammates.

Iwould prefer not to hear that upon being given the keys to the kindom, that she said " Oh but I feel uncomfortable because this whole situation is up in the air" It wasn't The only unknown was when Pat would step down officially.

So maybe she will show differently this year. But come on, she has 30 yrs of coaching experience. As of this point, I wold rather have Mulkey, McCallie, Walz, or Mitchell to name a few.

Mulkey has earned her stripes, but what exactly have the others accomplished? Louisville had 4 good years, but what Louisville calls a good year, TN considers a failure. That alone should define the difference in the programs.

And sorry to the UConn fans. I apologize, if I have offended you by putting this on your board.

 

[calpedaler]

Orange is icky.

 

[doggydaddy]

to doggydaddy. did you ever try to get your work done with your boss looking over your shoulder, questioning every move you made. that was the situation with Warlick last year. And yes, Tenn will almost for sure sign a top five class. Tenn is the strong hunt for 5 top 20 players, so i think Tenn will sign at least two more.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Holly would make a decision and Pat would question is? I don't believe it. Where did you hear this?

Which 5?

 

[Justavisitor]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Holly would make a decision and Pat would question is? I don't believe it. Where did you hear this?

Which 5?

I think what you're missing is that it was still Pat's team, no matter how you sliced it. The players were playing for Pat. The game plan belonged to Pat. The discipline came from Pat. The praise they were seeking was from Pat. Pat was the head coach, just not the one yelling out the in game instruction, but it was still her game plan. Going forward, the players will play for Holly. Holly will set the game plans and Holly will work to execute her own game plan. So no, Pat didn't question Holly, because Holly was there executing what Pat wanted done. Even in the huddles, Holly would gather with Pat first and then go over to the players with instructions. Sometimes, during time outs and half time, Pat was still the one delivering the message. Going forward, Holly will deliver her own message. I'm sure it will be similar, but I'm also betting some things will be unique.

 

[DobbsRover2]

to doggydaddy. did you ever try to get your work done with your boss looking over your shoulder, questioning every move you made. that was the situation with Warlick last year. And yes, Tenn will almost for sure sign a top five class. Tenn is the strong hunt for 5 top 20 players, so i think Tenn will sign at least two more.

There have been a lot of SEC and UTenn apologists spouting all kinds of "almost for sure" and maybe a chance of a possibility type of profound thoughts about how the SEC and UTenn will be on the rise (we're probably talking about a close Elite-8 loss here) in the next few years, but can you give us something that is a little more concrete and a higher-summit response than that basically Pat won't be cracking her clipboards over her assistants' shoulders and that they won't be cowering behind the bench anymore and that maybe a new HC can make a statement that won't have the entire Vol nation coming down on her if it deviates one iota from Pat's Pristine Path? You can't win anymore with antiquated strategies, and I just see Holly as having too big a shadow over her. I liked her as a player, and I kind of hope she can revive UTenn into a challenger among the top ten, but the orange girl's burden down at the rocky mountain horrified show will be a lot to bear. Saying that you were inhibited because you were scared of your former HC is not a good sign. I would much prefer to have a Chris Dailey coaching me, who would be quite willing to grab an ex-boss by the collar and yank him off the court when he got too excited. Not that Geno ever gets too excited on the sidelines.

 

[doggydaddy]

I think what you're missing is that it was still Pat's team, no matter how you sliced it. The players were playing for Pat. The game plan belonged to Pat. The discipline came from Pat. The praise they were seeking was from Pat. Pat was the head coach, just not the one yelling out the in game instruction, but it was still her game plan. Going forward, the players will play for Holly. Holly will set the game plans and Holly will work to execute her own game plan. So no, Pat didn't question Holly, because Holly was there executing what Pat wanted done. Even in the huddles, Holly would gather with Pat first and then go over to the players with instructions. Sometimes, during time outs and half time, Pat was still the one delivering the message. Going forward, Holly will deliver her own message. I'm sure it will be similar, but I'm also betting some things will be unique.

That is SO different than Pat questioning Holly.

 

[Justavisitor]

That is SO different than Pat questioning Holly.

I agree. I also think the bigger thing being missed here is what the players were dealing with, as in their mental psyche. Personally, I never took into account the mental toll taken on the players until I recently watched that ESPY video. Let's just say, my eyes were opened. Those players were emotionally worn out.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I didn't think anyone believes that Jeff Walz isn't a good coach, but it was popular in some corners to promote him as a great coach at least partly because it was a way of diminishing Frese. I've seen posters here suggest that he would be a good successor to Geno. That I just don't see. I see a guy who can maintain a Top 15 program, but I don't see greatness. And I would say the same about his counterpart at Kentucky.

Basically agree, but the difference is when Walz's team had a shade of a chance to make a run for an NC appearance during the last 4 years, they took it and ran with it as far as they could go. Does that make him a great coach? I don't know? He plainly needs a higher quality of recruit, but he has shown that when anything close to it is available, he can take it to the last level. Only six coaches have coached in an NC game the last 4 years (3 BE, 2 B12, 1 Pac-10), and for Walz to be among that select list to me at least shows something. And his teams don't go diving out in the first round of the NCAAs, unlike what some on the BY try to push as his legacy. He's got a solid record (10-4 in NCAAs) with Louisville that most coaches would love, unless they live in SEC dreamland. But please give me a report on all those SEC coaches who make Walz a laughingstock there. 71% winning percentage where it counts (not the SEC tourney, no matter how much you worship it), I'll take it.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Justavisitor.... You have made some pretty noble points, good stuff..... I will beg off the Holly bashing..... good luck to her..... I hope she has some success at the HC position this year.
Your point of Shoni is good also with respect to jacking the ball up all the time.... Simmons of course is good at that.

Maybe Pat was involved in games..... almost every time I saw her..... she was mute..... if she was part of TO huddles, she was listening not talking.... again the camera was not on her 24-7.... and I did see her occasionally bark out a ref..... but usually it was silence I saw..... all of last year, I just saw a dishelveled environment.... how many times in the PG news conference did I hear the players say "We just didn't execute" and you wonder ...who is holding these players' feet to the fire?

Anyway, good luck to the LVs this coming year..... oh, and I hope I don't hear this coming spring upon reflection "Well it was tough having Pat around as HC Emeritus", etc..... HW it is time to make your mark!

 

[avolfan]

doggydaddy, it is common knowledge that tenn is in the top two for russell and davis, and probably in the top 5 for scaife,williams,reimer. also pursuing cooper,dahlman,small,harper

 

[Bestiarius]

I think what you're missing is that it was still Pat's team, no matter how you sliced it. The players were playing for Pat. The game plan belonged to Pat. The discipline came from Pat. The praise they were seeking was from Pat. Pat was the head coach, just not the one yelling out the in game instruction, but it was still her game plan. Going forward, the players will play for Holly. Holly will set the game plans and Holly will work to execute her own game plan. So no, Pat didn't question Holly, because Holly was there executing what Pat wanted done. Even in the huddles, Holly would gather with Pat first and then go over to the players with instructions. Sometimes, during time outs and half time, Pat was still the one delivering the message. Going forward, Holly will deliver her own message. I'm sure it will be similar, but I'm also betting some things will be unique.

The empirical evidence appears to show Holly’s coaching skills to be lacking. A lot of what you are talking about is intangible. I don’t blame you for being optimistic, but you’ve come to a place that administers reality not validation. If you want confirmation of your opinions, The Summitt is the place to be. But, since you’re here:

Perhaps Pat’s interference last year helped the team. Who knows for sure? Perhaps without Pat’s influence this year, it could be much worse. But, I wonder how much difference there will be in Holly’s demeanor. Pat is still around and at a pretty good salary for someone that is out of the picture. How confident are you that Pat will not continue to exert her influence? I can’t see Holly telling Pat to butt out.

The administration didn’t exhibit much confidence in Holly based on the relatively low salary of $485k which puts her way down on the list of best paid coaches. Money isn’t everything, but this does hurt her status. Also, the combining of the athletic departments is another question mark on the women’s program.

Thinking that the Yum Center does not affect UT isn’t realistic. Everything competitors do to improve their programs affects other programs, particularly those that are geographically close and similar in type. Existence of Yum degrades UTs program in the same way that lack of success, administrative turmoil, recruiting difficulty does - a slow degradation.

It appears that there has been a general loss of Lady Vol prestige. Most of what is written still revolves around Pat. Not much about Holly or the current team. Game attendance has been declining. With The Summit web site going pay, even less buzz is available to most – out of sight, out of mind. The volume of posting on The Summitt has shown a marked decline in volume. Even the free sites aren’t showing much activity. An indication of flagging interest?

Lots of bragging about the “tough” schedule for this year but still afraid to play Uconn. What’s up with that?

 

[UcMiami]

I have no inside info nor did I watch a lot of TN games last year, but ... I do not think the situation at TN last year is any kind of measure for Holly as a head coach - she may be good, she may be bad, she may be middle of the road, but we will not find out until she has a chance to perform as THE head coach.
Not only was Pat head coach last year, but it was also supposed to be a fairly equal distribution of responsibilities for the other three coaches, and to some degree I am sure they were jocking for position among themselves. No idea when the final decision was made on Holly taking over, but I do not believe it was made during the season. On top of the coaching by committee approach, everyone connected with that program had to going through incredible emotional upheaval - players, coaches, and all the support staff.
I am not trying to be an appologist for Holly - just stating that evaluating her performance on last year's product on the floor is probably not fair.

 

[Alydar]

Suddenly (to at least one LV fan) Pat goes from the premier coach and motivator in all of wcbb to a boss standing behind a long-time assistant second-guessing every decision? WOW! So Pat is no longer a solution to problems but a source of problems?

This is just what many outside of Knoxville predicted a year ago. But the orange hoard quickly attacked anyone suggesting exactly what this LV fan is describing as what happened last year on the LV bench. And now? According to the visitor it's business as usual again. Holly has complete control and the orange express is back on track. Pat is gone but those who remain along with a couple of new assistants have made up for her departure? Recruits who were fighting for the opportunity to play for Pat are now equally eager to play for Holly?

There have been many examples of coaching icons who have retired (or been fired) and what the aftermath was like. UCLA, Indiana, N Carolina are good examples. In each case the program slid under the new coach. And the new coach doesn't last very long. It's an almost impossible situation for them. Anything good that happens is credited to the legacy of the icon while any loss is the fault of the new coach. Every time Holly makes a move in a close game the fans and the media will be asking "what would Pat have done"? It's human nature. Pat being in the stands instead of on the bench will make little difference. Tenn will have another 20+ win season, but any thoughts of getting beyond the S16 is nothing bt irrational exuberance.

 

[doggydaddy]

doggydaddy, it is common knowledge that tenn is in the top two for russell and davis, and probably in the top 5 for scaife,williams,reimer. also pursuing cooper,dahlman,small,harper

Russell for sure. But Davis dropped TN. Now TN is in her top 2? Doubtful.

Reimer is going to ND. Williams has 10 schools listed.

Pursuing is one thing. Getting a verbal is a long way from that.

You could get 2. You could get zero additions.

 

[Bayareahusky]

UcMiami - I would take exception with your statement that duties last year were distributed fairly equally amongst the 3 asst coaches..... duties were passed on to Holly to be Chief Operating Officer of the LVs..... any indication or insinuation that the environment was replete with uncertainty relative to who was in charge would be largely false. Pat casts a big shadow yes, but she signed off last year on HW coaching the games as top dog over Dean and Micki.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Yeah, those on the Summitt who had inside knowledge of the team all pointed to Warlick as being the one who had the commanding HC responsibilities, and it was "Holly should do this ..." and "Holly should do that ..." type of game reviews. Having the authority and being able to use it are two very different things though.

But the situation was extraordinarily difficult for Warlick on so many levels, from having your revered mother-figure type coach getting ever deeper into that cruel disease, to the grandiose delusions of a fan base that thought they were due an NC with last year's group, to the PG issues, and that a big senior class was riding into a fading sunset and she had to ride with them. Following coaching legends is indeed a tough position, because Vol fans' memories of Ball State have already been expunged, so unless Warlick can quickly deliver the same result that Pat is remembered for always giving them, the potential for a pitchfork uprising there is huge. Trouble is, she just doesn't have the street cred to get the top recruits having basically been a shadow coach of a dominating figure for many years. That might be semi-impressive if she was stepping in at MTSU, but not UTenn.

 

[tennfanatic00]

Russell for sure. But Davis dropped TN. Now TN is in her top 2? Doubtful.

Reimer is going to ND. Williams has 10 schools listed.

Pursuing is one thing. Getting a verbal is a long way from that.

You could get 2. You could get zero additions.

DD, we do already have Tucker verballed.

I can also vouch from legit sources that Davis is seriously considering Tennessee and we are back on her list. I'd say we're in pretty good shape to land a couple more names in 2013.

 

[doggydaddy]

DD, we do already have Tucker verballed.

I can also vouch from legit sources that Davis is seriously considering Tennessee and we are back on her list. I'd say we're in pretty good shape to land a couple more names in 2013.

I am well aware of Tucker. I should have said additional recruits. Legit sources? Is that what Maria is? Until the ink is dry on the LOI.... Well you get my point.

 

[Wonkster]

... Jeff Walz is a year away from being certifiably overrated...

Devastating assessment.

 

[Bestiarius]

DD, we do already have Tucker verballed.

I can also vouch from legit sources that Davis is seriously considering Tennessee and we are back on her list. I'd say we're in pretty good shape to land a couple more names in 2013.

What do your legit sources say about the status of Tucker's ACL injury? Also, regarding the Davis list, is that the same list Diamond D is on? The big question is, is Davis on Tenn's list. Legit sources say she isn't.

 

[Coler]

Tyler Scaife(HG #9) just released her top 5 list with Kentucky, LSU, Ohio State, Rutgers and Tennessee. Go RU.

 

[tennfanatic00]

By sources, I mean those personally close to me, not hearsay over the internet.

Kaela and Tennessee have been talking recently. It is by no means a done deal, but the prospects of her landing in Knoxville are much higher than they were even a month back. Both sides are open to it.

And to mention Tucker's ACL injury is in very poor taste, IMO.

 

[tennfanatic00]

I will add that I am quite excited about Tennessee being on several recruits' short lists. 2013 is a big test for the new coaching staff.

If they can land a few big names, I think Tennessee will be just fine. If not, things will get tense.

By no means are we guaranteed any recruit and the process can change in the blink of an eye. we'll see how it all unfolds in the fall. Until the fax lady sings, I won't be counting any chickens.

 

[Bestiarius]

By sources, I mean those personally close to me, not hearsay over the internet.
And to mention Tucker's ACL injury is in very poor taste, IMO.

How is it in poor taste? I was hoping the news might be good, and you seem to be in the know.

 

[avolfan]

doggydaddy, it is common knowledge that davis is down to UT and UGA. fences are being mended and I like UT's chance. top 5 documented by recruiting services for 3 other top 20 players.