Redskins

[Adios]

Q; Just WHO is so upset about the Redskin name? I don't see huge rallies of American Indians protesting this? Are these the same people who do not want "Under God" used by any government entity or people like the principal at the high school who did not want the Pledge of Allegiance said before a school function as it may offend the foreign students? How about NOT wearing a T-shirt with the American flag on Cinco de Mayo? I am Irish and I am offended by the Notre Dame's logo of a Fighting Irishman! Really..is that next PC move?

Considering the moniker "Irish" goes back to Fielding Yost, I suggest you gather your Irish brethren together and have discussions with Notre Dame, a school with a French name.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

Why is "Indian" offensive?

Imagine you are part of a dying culture: the Native Americans. Yeah, the Europeans came over and basically took everything and raped the Earth and claimed it as theirs, great. Fine. You don't blame the current Americans -- they weren't even alive when any of this happened. You understand.

But your culture is so marginalized that even now, literally over 200 years later, they think so little of your culture, that they continue to use the mistaken name the racist who came over and "discovered" America used to describe your indigenous peoples. Even now, hundreds of years later, they insist upon their mistake: "No, no, really... you're Indians."

People cheer on the fact that Americans can't even be bothered to acknowledge that you are not, in fact, Indians, and that India is totally a separate culture with nothing to do with you and your people.

 

[uconnbill]

sorry but political correctness run amok.

This was pushed by politicians and one small group in upstate NY. Traditions mean nothing in today's let's not offend anyone and everyone should get a trophy society.

 

[John]

sorry but political correctness run amok.

This was pushed by politicians and one small group in upstate NY. Traditions mean nothing in today's let's not offend anyone and everyone should get a trophy society.

So if a team were called the Washington Slant Eyes, that would be ok?

 

[ZooCougar]

Would be happy too. In fact there are US Supreme Court and a variety of state Supreme Court decisions in our early history that explicitly reference this basic point. And, there even someone modern affirmations up to the 1940s. As well, numerous signers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights reference this essential fact in their writings. I will dig them up for you. I would caution that stereotyping folks as those who cling to bibles and the Constitution as redneck crackle barrel lovers is not persuasive.

So you're saying the Framers weren't for a separation of Chuch and State and were essentially against religious freedom?

It actually is pretty persuasive because in the part of the country I live you almost expect the people to believe that the Framers just couldn't stop talking about the Good lord Baby Jesus. Which is pretty hilarious.

 

[Bonehead]

For what it's worth, if you read the actual essay on the Husky logo, it's not actually about the logo.

As far as the Redskins name, you may want to read up on the Phips Proclamation, which was issued by the Lt. Governor of Massachussetts in 1755, which put a literal bounty on the scalps of Penobscot Indians. As in, if you went out and killed an Indian, cut off his scalp and hair and brought it to the Governor, they gave you twenty pounds. Now I don't know if this is the actual origin of the term Redskins. However, I wouldn't argue with those Native Americans who believe it is (but then, I try not to be an unless it's for a good reason).

Good points but -

I read the letter from the student and she states the following - using the word 'offended'
"As a UConn student who is proud of my University’s academics and my future degree, I feel frustrated; as a woman student living at this campus I am outright offended. I am appalled by the selective amnesia these justifications display and angered at the superficiality of this Visual Identity Program."

The new husky logo is part of the Visual Identity Program in my eyes. I don't agree just stating all things offend someone these days."
http://thefeministwire.com/2013/04/an-open-letter-to-uconn-president-susan-herbst/


I have not read up on the Phips Proclamation however I believe that scalps were paid for. They were fighting one another and proof of killing an Indian was the scalp as opposed to dragging the whole body in. Also, the Redskins football team helmet has an Indian whose scalp is still attached - with a full head of hair - so that Redskin is a person of Redskin, not an Indian with its scalp removed. However, I don't believe that to be the origin of Redskin - as a matter of fact I believe the origin to be that of the Indians themselves - a way the described themselves differently from the 'white' man or Europeans. I believe it to be the color of their skin - the same way they describe the 'white man'.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_...hington_football_team_s_name_incorrectly.html

Some portions -

'There's a lot of disagreement even over what Redskins mean. Some people say it's a European term that referred to the fact that Indians there painted their faces red. Other people say, no, it refers to American Indians being scalped, two very different things, I think. But if you look in the dictionary, in pretty much every dictionary it's referred to as an offensive term. That would give me pause if I ever happened to own a football [team] to have that name. And I think it is offensive. The fact that a lot of people don't find it offensive probably has to do with the fact that they probably don't know exactly what it means.'

'In 2005, the Indian language scholar Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian Institution published a remarkable and consequential study of redskin's early history. His findings shifted the dates for the word's first appearance in print by more than a century and shed an awkward light on the contemporary debate. Goddard found, in summary, that "the actual origin of the word is entirely benign."
Redskin, he learned, had not emerged first in English or any European language. The English term, in fact, derived from Native American phrases involving the color red in combination with terms for flesh, skin, and man. These phrases were part of a racial vocabulary that Indians often used to designate themselves in opposition to others whom they (like the Europeans) called black, white, and so on.'

'It was used at the White House when President Madison requested that various Indian tribes steer clear of an alliance with Britain. No Ears, a chief of the Little Osages, spoke in reply and one of his statements was translated as, "I know the manners of the whites and the red skins." Only in 2004, however, when the Papers of James Madison project at the University of Virginia reached the year 1812 did this and another use of redskin from the same meeting come to light.
The word became even more well known when the Meskwaki chief Black Thunder delivered a speech at a treaty conference after the War of 1812. Black Thunder, whose words were translated by an interpreter, said that he would speak calmly and without fear, adding, "I turn to all, red skins and white skins, and challenge an accusation against me."
In the coming years, redskin became a key element of the English-language rhetoric used by Indians and Americans alike to speak about each other and to each other. Goddard mentions numerous Indian speeches that were translated and printed in English-language newspapers. From such speeches, Goddard observes, James Fenimore Cooper almost certainly learned the word, which he then began using in his novels in the 1820s.'

Now I don't know if this is the actual origin of the term Redskins. However, I wouldn't argue with those Native Americans who believe it is (but then, I try not to be an unless it's for a good reason) - but if I don't find it offensive, I don't find it offensive.

 

[Sky ball]

So you're saying the Framers weren't for a separation of Chuch and State and were essentially against religious freedom?

It actually is pretty persuasive because in the part of the country I live you almost expect the people to believe that the Framers just couldn't stop talking about the Good lord Baby Jesus. Which is pretty hilarious.

The framers were against a "State Religion" like the Church of England. I do not believe they were against the use of "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance in our public schools or the Christmas manger scene on the town green.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Imagine you are part of a dying culture: the Native Americans. Yeah, the Europeans came over and basically took everything and raped the Earth and claimed it as theirs, great. Fine. You don't blame the current Americans -- they weren't even alive when any of this happened. You understand.

But your culture is so marginalized that even now, literally over 200 years later, they think so little of your culture, that they continue to use the mistaken name the racist who came over and "discovered" America used to describe your indigenous peoples. Even now, hundreds of years later, they insist upon their mistake: "No, no, really... you're Indians."

People cheer on the fact that Americans can't even be bothered to acknowledge that you are not, in fact, Indians, and that India is totally a separate culture with nothing to do with you and your people.

Well I knew we had to disagree at some point. This is just PC run amok.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

sorry but political correctness run amok.

This was pushed by politicians and one small group in upstate NY. Traditions mean nothing in today's let's not offend anyone and everyone should get a trophy society.

Bill I hate political correctness as much as anyone but the name Redskin was used as a racial slur. This is why I hate when people unnecessarily play the race card or go way over the top PC. Because in legit cases of racism like this people's first instincts are to attribute it to the other nonsense. See Loop's response to my question about why Indians is offensive.

 

[SAMCRO]

 

[Bonehead]

Wow - there are a LOT of racial slurs for whites!!
Yuppie is included - really??


http://www.rsdb.org/race/whites

 

[Adesmar123]

So if a team were called the Washington Slant Eyes, that would be ok?

Are they Asian?

 

[Adios]

See Loop's response to my question about why Indians is offensive.

Again, India is on another continent. I am going to start calling you Nigerian. You're Nigerian. Oh wait, I mean, you're an Arab. (Which actually probably has truth to it if you're an Italian; your language was influenced by Arabic.)

People wonder why humanity is hopeless. Correcting a completely wrong ethnic reference is "PC". That is incredibly stupid.

 

[Adios]

Are they Asian?

Indians are Asian. We're in Asia.

God Almighty. Have mercy.

 

[Adesmar123]

Indians are Asian. We're in Asia.

God Almighty. Have mercy.

I am offended by your use of the word God in this context. Have you no respect for the beliefs and feelings of other people?

 

[ShakyTheMohel]

Native Americans don't find it offensive. Do the research before making naive statements

They don't?

"Petitioners have found a preponderance of evidence that a substantial amount of Native Americans found the term Redskins to be disparaging when used in connection with professional football," the ruling said. "While this may reveal differing opinions with the community, it does not negate the opinions of those who find it disparaging."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11102096/us-patent-office-cancels-washington-redskins-trademark

If the people that are part of the group potentially being offended find the word offensive....then it has to stop being used. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Saying that you are going to ignore the fact that you are offending people for the sake of tradition pretty much makes you an a hole.

 

[Adios]

I am offended by your use of the word God in this context. Have you no respect for the beliefs and feelings of other people?

I am sorry. Nature have mercy!

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Again, India is on another continent. I am going to start calling you Nigerian. You're Nigerian. Oh wait, I mean, you're an Arab. (Which actually probably has truth to it if you're an Italian; your language was influenced by Arabic.)

People wonder why humanity is hopeless. Correcting a completely wrong ethnic reference is "PC". That is incredibly stupid.

Here's the thing. You can call me whatever you want. Call me derogatory Italian names for all I care. I won't call the PC police.

 

[Adios]

Here's the thing. You can call me whatever you want. Call me derogatory Italian names for all I care. I won't call the PC police.

You are very cool.

Guess what? I've been enduring a LOT of different bigoted terms my whole life, from sand N to dothead. People can't make up their minds. I didn't call the PC police yet. Does that make me cooler?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

You are very cool.

Guess what? I've been enduring a LOT of different bigoted terms my whole life, from sand N to dothead. People can't make up their minds. I didn't call the PC police yet. Does that make me cooler?

You're a weird guy.

 

[Adesmar123]

If the people that are part of the group potentially being offended find the word offensive....then it has to stop being used. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

As a person of additional weight, I am offended by the term Husky. Everytime I hear the mention of the words Uconn Husky, I think they are making fun of my people. When will the persecution of those with extra mass ever end?

And maybe they can be called the Washington Kimosabes.

 

[Adios]

You're a weird guy.

Indian. I mean, Arab.

 

[Adesmar123]

I am sorry. Nature have mercy!

I am also Wicken... Please do not offend the reason why we are all here on this planet hurtling through the space time continuum.

 

[Adios]

I am also Wicken... Please do not offend the reason why we are all here on this planet hurtling through the space time continuum.

Wiccan*. You're welcome.

 

[Adesmar123]

Wiccan*. You're welcome.

So now you tell those of us in minority groups the derivation of our religious following?

 

[Adesmar123]

Wiccan*. You're welcome.

You must be a Redskin.

 

[ZooCougar]

The framers were against a "State Religion" like the Church of England. I do not believe they were against the use of "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance in our public schools or the Christmas manger scene on the town green.

Yes but which God were they talking about? for some of them it was a supreme deity. And whatever some of the bible thumpers would have you believe, some of them, including the more influential ones were deists, notably Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Paine. And while Thomas Jefferson may not have been a Deist, he was clearly influenced by the philosophy.

 

[Adios]

Anyone with a pea of a brain knows Freemasonry is huge in the American and French Revolutions, at least. There's plenty of gravestones from the early US here with the Grand Architect logo on them.

Does Washington White Men work?

 

[phillionaire]

I think this sums it up pretty well

 

[John]

Are they Asian?

Sure, we're honoring the Chinese, so let's call them the Washington Slant Eyes. Same thing as honoring the Native Americans with the Redskins.