Recruiting: help me understand why UCONN doesn't get more 5s & 4s

[babysheep]

When I first read the post, I thought the OP was talking about Centers and Power Forwards. I had actually drafted a response that was pointing out until 2009 UConn had a dominant or at least an NBA bound center for most of the prior 16 years. Then I realized he was talking about recruiting stars.

Calhoun was the master of finding that kid that was on the verge of breaking out. There were a lot of Shabazz Napier type recruits, where Calhoun got in on an unranked recruit when there were just a couple of offers, and by the time the player committed he was sitting on 12-15 scholarship offers. It will be interesting to see if Ollie can keep it up.

We already got TS and Turtle

 

[SubbaBub]

This is very easy. Calhoun trusted his own eye above all. He also wanted "his guys" tough guys, fighters. He had little use for AAU prima donnas.

It worked out pretty well.

 

[Palatine]

Quite frankly how many 4s and 5s come out of New England? We don't have a lot of local talent until recently and all of those kids had UConn on their list. But, the majority of these kids are coming out of Chicago, LA, and down South. Many of them are not that familiar with Uconn and see it as the cold place far away.

New York and Boston are in our recruiting back yard.

 

[Huskyforlife]

We'll one, we get plenty of 4 stars. And two, that's how you end up with kids like shabazz

 

[Mano]

Threads like these make me wanna *facepalm*.

UConn over the years has gotten their fair share of highly rated and skilled kids. Sometimes the recruiting service's rankings reflect that fact and sometimes they don't. In Calhoun's heyday, a lot of these coddled wannabe superstar kids probably didn't like the prospect of going to play for a coach who would actually, you know, push them to become their best. Other times, some of these kids would recognize that that was exactly what they needed.

Another factor here is that once some of these kids do commit to the "name" schools (i.e. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc.) the kid in question would get a rankings bump and would become more likely to be named a McD's AA. All of that is just a big circle jerk of promotion to keep the profile of schools the networks think will get them ratings as high as possible. Take our incoming 5* Daniel Hamilton for example, most recruiting services have him listed as a top 15-20 player, I guarantee if he had commited to an Arizona or a Duke that he'd have been named to that team.

Lastly, as TCF so succinctly outlined, all those other issues surrounding conference affiliation, our former coach, and our school's sanctions likely conspired to keep us off the lists of a fair number of quality prospects who otherwise might have more strongly considered us.

But fear not, the future is bright indeed.

 

[vtmikeb]

Dear OP,
If you replaced "5s & 4s" with "National Championships" in your title thread, would you really give a damn?

Sincerely,
Reality

 

[David 76]

I'm not sure it's reasonable that we'd be ahead of UNC or Kansas..

I know that the experts would agree with you. But I don't. UNC has not won Championships like we have lately. They have an academic scandal. Why aren't we ahead of them? Tradition? Kansas has been incredibly consistent. But they haven't won a whole lot of NCs. And they have to sell kids on moving to KANSAS!
I appreciate your post but at this point, I think we've learned to feel inferior to these Blue Blood teams and I'm tired of it

 

[Go_Huskies]

I think UCONN is a national powerhouse equal to anyone. We are the dominant championship team over the past 15 years. So why do the top 10 recruits repeatedly go to KY, Duke, UNC. Kansas and even AZ.

I understand we don't focus on one-and-dones and I understand why. I love the way we find great value in 3 star players (and off the radar players) and are great at developing those players. I understand and appreciate a true team concept.

But that aside, why are most of those kids keeping us on their short list? We've won more championships, have a Coach who is a charisma magnet, and a dozen NBA players. I know the conference is a part of it and that we had a coaching transition and a recent sanction. But this seemed to be going on when we were still ruling the BE with a long-time coach.

But every year KY gets about 5 top ten players, Duke, UNC, & Kansas divide up the rest with an occasional player not going to those top 4 colleges. I don't want to be KY, but I just don't get it.

Good and interesting question. I understand you are not complaining but just curious. Why people have completely misunderstood your question is beyond me? I have always wondered how come when we go head to head with Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc we usually lose. I consider us on par or better than those schools. But in the end it has worked out for us.

 

[freescooter]

I actually like getting the 3-low 4* players with upside. For exactly the reason you state (one and done), I enjoy getting to know these players, watching them develop and ultimately win a National Championship. Recruiting like Kentucky is like playing craps or roulette. no one class (or roll) affects the next and the results one year are completely separate from the next years' results (i.e. Win the National Title in 2012, not even make the Tournament in 2013, return to the Final 4 in 2014. At least if a player stays for a couple, two/tree years, they can at least plug holes.

The bold was actually Calhoun's preference for most of his time at UCONN. He spoke about it on several occasions at various events. He wanted players who had a big upside and room to develop.

 

[Deadrody]

actually, they don't / didn't want to play for Jim Calhoun. They want promises, they want freedom, they want to be pampered, they don't want to be yanked out of games, they want a lot of playing time

hence they go somewhere else. I'm not knocking my man one iota, I wouldn't want it any other way

Ollie came in with a lot of uncertainties. Those uncertainties are melting away and I suspect more top 10 recruits will come his way

+1

I think you are exactly right on BOTH accounts.

 

[Lefty2one]

In terms of Top 10 recruits, I think a lot if had to do with Calhoun. Those types of kids (huge egos, pampered, questionable work ethic, prima donnas, over-inflated sense of self-worth, etc) want a player's coach, not some old-school screamer like Calhoun. We'll see how Ollie fairs with heavyweight recruits soon enough.

 

[RyMaN600]

I suppose it's a legitimate question, but in my opinion people put way too much stock in getting multiple overall top 10 players every year when we get plenty of great 3-4-5 star recruits that keep bringing home the hardware, which is the whole point of recruiting players to begin with.

Some here seem to act like jilted lovers whenever a hyped-up superstar athlete picks a different school, as if "we're not pretty enough" and it's an indictment against the program that all of the Jabari Parkers, Andrew Wiggins and Julius Randles aren't banging down our door every year. In all honesty Duke, Kentucky, Kansas and UNC can go ahead and fill up on all of the top-flight recruits they want. Lately it's done nothing but set expectations sky-high only to end in heartbreak more often than not. Meanwhile our Shabazz Napiers, Niels Giffeys, Ryan Boatrights, Jeremy Lambs, and Phil Nolans keep winning rings.

The point of recruiting is to win championships, not the other way around.

I know that the experts would agree with you. But I don't. UNC has not won Championships like we have lately. They have an academic scandal. Why aren't we ahead of them? Tradition? Kansas has been incredibly consistent. But they haven't won a whole lot of NCs. And they have to sell kids on moving to KANSAS!
I appreciate your post but at this point, I think we've learned to feel inferior to these Blue Blood teams and I'm tired of it

In the past 20 years we're ahead of UNC in what counts. I don't think UCONN is inferior to the supposed "Blue Blood" teams at all.

 

[mcs333]

UCONN basketball facilities were some of the worst in the BE and not even close to what Duke, Kentucky and other schools have. Now that is about to change and I expect recruits will take notice. Hopefully UCONN starts to market our new BB facility. Invite media, open house etc. don't under estimate what our new facilities will due for recruiting!

 

[whaler11]

Recruiting is a means to an end. If you are winning national championships clearly you are recruiting well enough.

It's like ending up with Kate Upton and saying you aren't happy with her middle school yearbook picture.

 

[whaler11]

Generally I'd rather have the third season of the 50th best high school player than the freshman season of the 5th best high school player anyway.

 

[zymurg]

Calhoun was on the outs with AAU programs and handlers. The most egregious case was BABC and Leo Papile. UConn had some difficulty
breaking into the NYC area, the players UConn was able to garner from that area with big reputations were those who didn't have ties to premier AAU programs. Taliek Brown played his AAU basketball in Houston. Ben Gordon stopped playing AAU ball. Emeka Okafor
played for a top AAU program in Houston coached by Josh Pastner's father. There were some problems there. Okafor was way undervalued;
he was a composite 99 in the rankings.

This was of course before the second championship. After winning the second championship; UConn was able to successfully more highly ranked players. Still UConn doesn't have a specific area which year in year has produced quality players who were successfully recruited
by UConn. One example of this is New Jersey; Andrew Bynum is the lone high profile recruit who opted for UConn. Calhoun actually
beat out UNC for him; of course he went directly into the NBA draft. Charlie Villaneuva went to prep school in NJ, but he was actually
from the Bronx. He is an example of another current; UConn got late signings where the primary school had something happen. Ben Gordon is another; Deandre Daniels is a more recent example as is Ryan Boatright.

We will have to see how recruiting under Coach Ollie plays out. Currently he is riding a crest of good publicity. Even this past fall
we were concerned that players were blowing UConn off. Rakim Lubin and Sam Casalle Jr. were way down the recruiting board.
Now UConn is in with some pretty high profile players for 2015. We have two verbals from UConn type players already. 2016
should be a very good year. Players are committing earlier than ever. The impact of the 2014 championship will be felt even more
strongly with that group of players.

Of course there are negatives; currently the single biggest negative is conference affiliation. Things could become worse on that front
by NCAA action. How the NBA plays the age limitation also will factor in the equation. I believe that the UConn staff can work harder
and smarter than virtually all the other programs; unfortunately they will need to just to stay at the top of college basketball.

 

[PAHusky]

Exactly this. We are winning more than anyone else doing what we are doing. Period. End of discussion. You can say it's a valid question to ask why we don't do this or that, but the question is since we're winning more than anyone else doing what we are doing, why would you ask why we're not doing something differently? Because in most things in life, it's not just "if it's not broke don't fix it" -- it's why are you wasting your time discussing how you could fix it if it's working better than anyone else's version.

This is a college basketball message board in the off season, we're all wasting our time discussing things.

The OP asked an interesting question. He's not criticizing the staff, or saying he wishes things were different. He's just wondering why, with all of the success we have had, more players ranked by the recruiting services in the top ten in their class aren't clamoring to go to UConn like they are for some of the other premier programs.

 

[businesslawyer]

This is a college basketball message board in the off season, we're all wasting our time discussing things.

The OP asked an interesting question. He's not criticizing the staff, or saying he wishes things were different. He's just wondering why, with all of the success we have had, more players ranked by the recruiting services in the top ten in their class aren't clamoring to go to UConn like they are for some of the other premier programs.

I'll try one more time, as politely as I can. The interesting question is why UNC and Kansas and others don't copy our method of only playing lightly in the market for the Top 25 kids, since it is our method -- and not their method -- that is producing more championships. That is the point I -- and others before me I think -- were trying to make.

The answer to the original question, by the way, in my opinion, is that Calhoun wouldn't put up with the BS just because you were a star that other coaches would. And since the Burger AAs were coddled by high school coaches or they'd go elsewhere, and looked forward to playing in the NBA where if they were good enough they would be more powerful than their coaches, most players of that level simply made other choices.

 

[White Dwarf]

Our coaches develop the talent better.

 

[Jerry1714]

I figured when I posted that I would get my fair share of the quick to pick a fight folks. I thank the people that have something to add to the conversation.
The others are sad. I'm not questioning KOs recruiting. I think he was amazing given the transitions. And I'm certainly not questioning our team. I am saying that we should be up with Duke & KY and ahead of Kansas, AZ & UNC when top kids are deciding where to go.

The combo of weather, girls, and tradition is better at most if not all of those schools.

These are 18 year old dudes.

 

[formerlurker]

We just got a four and expect a 5 next year.

 

[Mano]

I think UCONN is a national powerhouse equal to anyone. We are the dominant championship team over the past 15 years. So why do the top 10 recruits repeatedly go to KY, Duke, UNC. Kansas and even AZ.

I think you touch upon one of the more important reasons right in your opening. The perception we have of UConn as fans of our favorite school is probably far different than that of the rest of the country. Just look at all the articles coming out lately asking whether UConn should be considered one of the "blue blood" schools. Perception of us is finally catching up to reality. We, by any metric or standard of performance you could want to apply, are without question one of the absolutely elite schools out there. For whatever reason; ESPN bias, backlash to our headstrong coach (gotta love that guy), or the fact that we exist as part of such a small, overlooked state, probably took on the perception of our longtime leader. That of the plucky underdog who's forcing their way to the head of the pack. Now, we ARE the head of the pack and there will be a recruiting reckoning.

 

[dogfan96]

This is very easy. Calhoun trusted his own eye above all. He also wanted "his guys" tough guys, fighters. He had little use for AAU prima donnas.

It worked out pretty well.

Calhoun recruited the top players just like everyone did. They just (for the most part) decided to go elsewhere.

 

[PAHusky]

I'll try one more time, as politely as I can. The interesting question is why UNC and Kansas and others don't copy our method of only playing lightly in the market for the Top 25 kids, since it is our method -- and not their method -- that is producing more championships. That is the point I -- and others before me I think -- were trying to make.

The answer to the original question, by the way, in my opinion, is that Calhoun wouldn't put up with the BS just because you were a star that other coaches would. And since the Burger AAs were coddled by high school coaches or they'd go elsewhere, and looked forward to playing in the NBA where if they were good enough they would be more powerful than their coaches, most players of that level simply made other choices.

I'll try to explain my position one more time, as politely as I can. The fundamental question is - why don't players ranked incredibly highly, i.e. in the top ten in their respective classes, seem to chose UConn? What those players do once they get to college and our successes with recruiting less heralded kids has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's query. Wondering why other schools don't attempt to copy our methods is an interesting but ultimately irrelevant point when discussing why those kids don't pick UConn. It would be one thing if UConn solely went after kids who were more under the radar and didn't recruit anyone ranked in the top ten. That isn't the case though, as was shown above; UConn offered almost all of the top 10 almost every year. Is it possible that these offers are perfunctory and the staff is really going after less highly ranked kids? Sure. But again, this doesn't do anything to address the OP's original query - why do these highly rated kids year after year fall all over themselves to sign up to play for Kentucky, or UNC, or Arizona, when they have had less success on the court? Is it purely coaching? Like you pointed out, Calhoun's attitude may have had a lot to do with it, but now that KO is the coach, is that going to continue? Is it perception of our program as a whole with the current generation of high schoolers? Who knows, but to dismiss the original question so blithely after its engendered some pretty heated conversation is fairly condescending.

 

[David 76]

Dear OP,
If you replaced "5s & 4s" with "National Championships" in your title thread, would you really give a damn?

Sincerely,
Reality

We are the best. Period. I just want more respect for my school. My question was only about why top 20 kids aren't tripping over themselves to get here. Not about what we've accomplished. Not that we should change our standards about team first and work ethic.

I love UCONN. I'm amazed at what has been accomplished over the years. I want all the best recruits to have UCONN on the top of their list whether we accept them or not. They don't. Many of them don't have UCONN on their long list. I don't get it.
Some posters have mentioned the transitions we've been through as a factor (certainly true) others suggested being less known or geography or that it is changing now.

But for some reason a bunch of you took it as if it were an affront to UCONN or a sacrilegious question to ask.

 

[Leebo]

A month ago were were a 7 seed expected to lose in the first round, in a "dead end" conference with an unproven coach.

How many 5 star recruits since then would be enough to appease you?

Because, that's the reason why they weren't "tripping over themselves" to play here. In that time, the equation has changed.

So I'm assuming your disappointment at the number of 5 star recruits is from the time since the championship.

 

[uconnfan68]

I think UCONN is a national powerhouse equal to anyone. We are the dominant championship team over the past 15 years. So why do the top 10 recruits repeatedly go to KY, Duke, UNC. Kansas and even AZ.

I understand we don't focus on one-and-dones and I understand why. I love the way we find great value in 3 star players (and off the radar players) and are great at developing those players. I understand and appreciate a true team concept.

But that aside, why are most of those kids keeping us on their short list? We've won more championships, have a Coach who is a charisma magnet, and a dozen NBA players. I know the conference is a part of it and that we had a coaching transition and a recent sanction. But this seemed to be going on when we were still ruling the BE with a long-time coach.

But every year KY gets about 5 top ten players, Duke, UNC, & Kansas divide up the rest with an occasional player not going to those top 4 colleges. I don't want to be KY, but I just don't get it.

#1. They pay more.
#2. Classes are optional.

 

[jibsey]

Right after we won the championship KO was getting his life story told to the nation, Durante and LeBron sang his praises, new practice facility Taj Mahal, and I really felt the recruiting game was going to uptick for us big time. I agree that they should be lined up at KO's office door and literally fighting for an opening on our roster . Let's see.

 

[Gurleyman]

Can't remember the last time I cared about recruiting class rankings and things. I mean, thank the heavens that we didn't get Knight, Selby or Joseph and ended up with Bazz. That's perhaps the difference between 2 titles and 4 (would those one and dones have stepped on Kemba's toes? I imagine they might have - not to mention that 3 years of Kemba was better than zero of Jennings).

Or look at it another way - there was a time when we were getting our share of the top, top guys. CV and Rudy were top 5 guys in back to back classes, Rudy was the top guy in his class who actually went to college and CV might have been behind only Luol Deng. Yet CV played behind a lesser-regarded Boone in the same class, the team with both CV and Rudy on it underachieved with a lot of talent (if somewhat mismatched talent), and Rudy's last team was frustrating for some of the same reasons. Put the lightly-regarded Terrence Samuel on either of those last two teams, though, and we might win the whole thing. A little defense and tenacity in the backcourt makes those teams a lot better (although a healthy and enrolled AJP would have been nice, too).

 

[pj]

I'll try to explain my position one more time, as politely as I can. The fundamental question is - why don't players ranked incredibly highly, i.e. in the top ten in their respective classes, seem to chose UConn? What those players do once they get to college and our successes with recruiting less heralded kids has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's query. Wondering why other schools don't attempt to copy our methods is an interesting but ultimately irrelevant point when discussing why those kids don't pick UConn. It would be one thing if UConn solely went after kids who were more under the radar and didn't recruit anyone ranked in the top ten. That isn't the case though, as was shown above; UConn offered almost all of the top 10 almost every year. Is it possible that these offers are perfunctory and the staff is really going after less highly ranked kids? Sure. But again, this doesn't do anything to address the OP's original query - why do these highly rated kids year after year fall all over themselves to sign up to play for Kentucky, or UNC, or Arizona, when they have had less success on the court? Is it purely coaching? Like you pointed out, Calhoun's attitude may have had a lot to do with it, but now that KO is the coach, is that going to continue? Is it perception of our program as a whole with the current generation of high schoolers? Who knows, but to dismiss the original question so blithely after its engendered some pretty heated conversation is fairly condescending.

Part of the answer is that we don't do that badly with top kids. UNC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky clearly do better. A few other schools do also but I would have to browse the recruiting rankings history to name which ones. But we've gotten a few top players, and most schools don't get any.

A second answer is that UConn has never been about showcasing individuals. We have been about team play, hard work, and self-sacrifice. A kid with an oversized ego, and nowadays the top players have a lot of flatterers whispering in their ears, is not necessarily going to be attracted to that. Whereas a guy ranked maybe 50-75, who knows that maybe 30 players make the NBA each year, realizes he's on the margin of being able to play for money and wants to get coached up and develop into a better player, into a player who improves at every aspect of the game, even the ones that aren't visible in the stat sheet.

A third answer is connections. The very top ranked kids have a lot of handlers and they don't necessarily guide kids to the school that produces the most champions or the most improvement in players. Think about Abu to NC State, for example. What does motivate these influential adults is murky to me, but clearly UConn has not generally been the winner when a self-interested adult has influence. On the other hand, there have been a few cases where parents with relationships to our coaches helped us - eg Sam Cassell's relationship with KO helped with his son; or possibly Rolando Lamb's history beating Jim Calhoun helped us with his son Jeremy.

Other posters have given good answers too. I think it's many factors, and I think it's reasonable to expect that KO will do well in years to come.