Post? 4? 5?

[hoophuskee]

Hi hoophuskee....brief personals....next to Dad, my Gramps is the most influential man in my life. Since forever, I love all our times together....best are the nights we spend talking about anything and everything, we'd get 4 hours of sleep, capped off by his signature bountiful breakfasts. He is impressively contemporary, and my portal to the world as it was.

Overall, I favor finesse over power; however, the argument can go either way. As I understand it, Wilt (power) got the better of Russell (more finesse, some power); Jabbar (finesse) artfully floated his sky hook over everyone, including Wilt. I remember Olajuwon (finesse) schooled Shaq (nothing but power) in a finals sweep. On the other hand, Shaq overwhelmed weaker defenders with thuggish physicality, while referees swallowed their whistles.

Stewie wasn't/isn't a natural center. As a pro, playing the 5 will needlessly drain her energy, hence durability, as well as diminish her offensive production. On occasion, fine; consistently, no. Stewie has some power, but she brings a more finesse-oriented game, on either side of the ball....more of all she does is of the artful variety than anything else. Maya also wasn't/isn't a 4. I'm still good with Stef. Otherwise you're spot on .

Thanks for the kind words about my temperament....we're expressing mostly opinions, after all. Disagreements are inevitable, wherein I prefer to leave things be....there's not much to be gained otherwise. But I do have a more provocative side, if randomly....(there is this masculine fervor I sense surrounds me on this board, lol).

I see we're comparing apples to oranges. you have previously mentioned bird's pro career vs mojeff. When I had mentioned Stewie, Maya, DT, Bird and MoJeff-- that was all college. Not taking pro into account.

I didn't see Russell vs wilt but from what I've heard and read- I give the edge to Russell. I wish I had the link but Russell once said that for most of the game they'd guard wilt one-on-one then at some point they'd start to double wilt and his teammates were so out of rhythm - they'd inevitably miss. plus I'm not a big fan of scorers that can't shoot ft's.

Interesting you mention Olajuwon-- the discussion of an all time team comes up - and how they'd paly together. If I were to put a 12 man team it would be Olajuwon, Robinson, Russell, Garnett, McHale, Walton, Bird, LeBron, Jordan, Curry, Magic, and Stockton. In bod would be my starters. Russell as a pf.

If I needed 15 - would be Jerry West, Moses Malone -- and I suppose Chris Paul. I'd want a team more finesse too.

 

[islandgurl]

I see we're comparing apples to oranges. you have previously mentioned bird's pro career vs mojeff. When I had mentioned Stewie, Maya, DT, Bird and MoJeff-- that was all college. Not taking pro into account.

I didn't see Russell vs wilt but from what I've heard and read- I give the edge to Russell. I wish I had the link but Russell once said that for most of the game they'd guard wilt one-on-one then at some point they'd start to double wilt and his teammates were so out of rhythm - they'd inevitably miss. plus I'm not a big fan of scorers that can't shoot ft's.

Interesting you mention Olajuwon-- the discussion of an all time team comes up - and how they'd paly together. If I were to put a 12 man team it would be Olajuwon, Robinson, Russell, Garnett, McHale, Walton, Bird, LeBron, Jordan, Curry, Magic, and Stockton. In bod would be my starters. Russell as a pf.

If I needed 15 - would be Jerry West, Moses Malone -- and I suppose Chris Paul. I'd want a team more finesse too.

Hoophuskee....Re Mo v Sue, I made a brief comparison at the college level....the Mo-is-better-than-Sue hybrid lacked practicality, which I pointed out. Your all-UConn team I do understand as just collegiate, it's why I said "Stewie wasn't/isn't" to reference past and present, or college and pro (same with Maya). I didn't see the need to expound that we all saw Stewie easily playing the 5 against mostly smaller, less talented college players...but which isn't going to work as well in the pros. My mind seems to always be in gear, it sometimes gets well ahead of my fingers when I'm in a hurry....if I was not clear, mea culpa .

I didn't see Wilt v Bill either, I'm told there were numerous instances when Russell was down on himself after Wilt dominated him more often than not in their individual match ups. Russell couldn't really contain Wilt's scoring, but Wilt matched him on rebounds as well as protecting the rim. However, Russell "prevailed" over Wilt in most minds since the Celtics won most of the games and nearly all of the championships.

You've got 6 bigs on your 12-man legends team, with 3 more at around 6'8"....who are you intending to play, 7'7" Alien Legends? Heavily influenced by Gramps and some stats, I'd go with Magic, Jordan, Bird, Olajuwon, Jabbar....with Wilt, Russell, Lebron, the Big O and West for a 10-man team....(Gramps loved West).

 

[Kibitzer]

@islandgurl, et al. I actually saw Russ vs. Wilt - often - and followed their rivalry intensely throughout their illustrious careers. Here's my take.

1. Wilt was bigger (7'1" vs. 6'9-10"?) and better (Geez, 50 ppg one season!). But Russ was indisputably superior (arguably GOAT) at making (inspiring?) his teammates better. 11 NBA Championships better.
2. It's a risky stretch, but islandgurl almost seems to be making a Russ-Wilt comparison between Tina and Stef.​

The other issue: designation of bb positions. I have often expressed my distaste for the 1-2-3-4-5 categorization. More recently I latched on to a system I like (Boston Globe bb writer): ball handlers, wings, swings, and bigs. Mix and match, just keep one PG on the floor.

 

[UcMiami]

Islandgirl - I have always agreed about Stewart vs. big powerful posts, but was actually pretty impressed with her so far as a pro - she was battling Fowles pretty well defensively - physically keeping her out of spots she wanted to get to in a way I didn't expect. She appears to be Seattle's only effective post defender.

 

[CocoHusky]

Islandgirl - I have always agreed about Stewart vs. big powerful posts, but was actually pretty impressed with her so far as a pro - she was battling Fowles pretty well defensively - physically keeping her out of spots she wanted to get to in a way I didn't expect. She appears to be Seattle's only effective post defender.

Stewie has been impressive defending in the WNBA post so far. Long term though I am still fearful of the wear & tear or risk injury that could come with her being the "only" post defender.

 

[UcMiami]

Stewie has been impressive defending in the WNBA post so far. Long term though I am still fearful of the wear & tear or risk injury that could come with her being the "only" post defender.

Agree - have been really unimpressed with Langhorne and Gatling looks sort of like BamBam - a good enforcer to have around in case you want to lay a few hard fouls on someone, but not much long term use.

 

[islandgurl]

Brief personals.....I've always liked tennis, I've stayed competitive by playing mostly against more experienced guys (yes, I lose most times, but competitively). Over the years, I've acquired clients through a network of contacts using the sport, particularly well-to-do clientele of either gender. Long story short, it has served me well in my profession/career.
----------------------
Hi kibitzer....lucky you for being witness to one of basketball's storied rivalries. No, Tina v Stef doing different things well is hardly a for-the-ages comparison to the legendary Wilt v Russell match up.

Your suggestion that Russell "inspired" teammates towards all those championships validates the often superior effect of player combinations over individual skill in BB, and other team sports. I recently posted about the 1960s Celtics "owning" the Lakers even as the latter was loaded with offensive talent in Wilt, Baylor, West. And I'm still good with Stef .

If we must revisit the numeric player designations ....assigning different position descriptors to the widely used alpha-numeric codes might certainly satisfy one's personal preference (so go for it!), but it doesn't change the commonality of characteristics and attributes inherent in either the positions, the players or both. For me, the standard alpha-numeric designation beckons with simplicity .
------------------------
UcMiami....3 games doesn't a season make. "Battling" Fowles and other elite bigs will take its toll over time, on offensive production, stamina/durability, and a greater likelihood of injury....with an adverse effect on career longevity. The Storm needs Kiah Stokes....they'd be an immediate contender.

 

[hoophuskee]

Hoophuskee....Re Mo v Sue, I made a brief comparison at the college level....the Mo-is-better-than-Sue hybrid lacked practicality, which I pointed out. Your all-UConn team I do understand as just collegiate, it's why I said "Stewie wasn't/isn't" to reference past and present, or college and pro (same with Maya). I didn't see the need to expound that we all saw Stewie easily playing the 5 against mostly smaller, less talented college players...but which isn't going to work as well in the pros. My mind seems to always be in gear, it sometimes gets well ahead of my fingers when I'm in a hurry....if I was not clear, mea culpa .

I didn't see Wilt v Bill either, I'm told there were numerous instances when Russell was down on himself after Wilt dominated him more often than not in their individual match ups. Russell couldn't really contain Wilt's scoring, but Wilt matched him on rebounds as well as protecting the rim. However, Russell "prevailed" over Wilt in most minds since the Celtics won most of the games and nearly all of the championships.

You've got 6 bigs on your 12-man legends team, with 3 more at around 6'8"....who are you intending to play, 7'7" Alien Legends? Heavily influenced by Gramps and some stats, I'd go with Magic, Jordan, Bird, Olajuwon, Jabbar....with Wilt, Russell, Lebron, the Big O and West for a 10-man team....(Gramps loved West).

yeah I got six bigs.

it's the fear of power or just opposing great inside presence for player's like wilt, shaq, Duncan, moses Malone, though I picked him up on the 15 man team. and getting jabbar outside his comfort zone of the sky hook. imo Olajuwon, russeell, robisnon and garnett are the greatest tall defensive players ever. So in terms of synergy - I want elite defensive centers - and unlike wilt and shaq they can knock down free throws. both wilt and shaq were scorers that can't shoot ft's. I don't want them late in the game taking the ball out of other efficient scorers hands.

most of the other players are versatile. bird can play sf or pf.
LeBron can play pf, sf, sg or pg.
magic has played pf but not a pf, but can play sf, sg or pg.
Jordan can play sf, sg or pg.
curry can play pg or sg.
Stockton is primarily a pg.

all I wanted from the pf and center basically was great defense. McHale was a very good defender too. but unlike drob, garnett, Russell, drob and even Walton, McHale gives me a quick and very tall pf that is devastating low post scorer but can hit jump shots. but I don't have to paly them all. My big men could foul and even if they foul out - I'd just bring in more great defenders. In particular 5 of them could cause problems for any smaller quicker players that like to attack the rim. the defense would be consistent wihtotu a threat of worrying who would get into foul trouble.
-----------
*** This thread title mentions 4/5 -- What do you think of the pickups of Stevens and Camara? Both can be 4/5 players? I know NOTHING of Camara. But I've read some say she is strong. You think she can play some 5 against more bulkier players and be1st off the bench as a backup center her 1st year? But overall do you like the pickups and see them both as 4/5's?

 

[hoophuskee]

Brief personals.....I've always liked tennis, I've stayed competitive by playing mostly against more experienced guys (yes, I lose most times, but competitively). Over the years, I've acquired clients through a network of contacts using the sport, particularly well-to-do clientele of either gender. Long story short, it has served me well in my profession/career.
----------------------
Hi kibitzer....lucky you for being witness to one of basketball's storied rivalries. No, Tina v Stef doing different things well is hardly a for-the-ages comparison to the legendary Wilt v Russell match up.

Your suggestion that Russell "inspired" teammates towards all those championships validates the often superior effect of player combinations over individual skill in BB, and other team sports. I recently posted about the 1960s Celtics "owning" the Lakers even as the latter was loaded with offensive talent in Wilt, Baylor, West. And I'm still good with Stef .

If we must revisit the numeric player designations ....assigning different position descriptors to the widely used alpha-numeric codes might certainly satisfy one's personal preference (so go for it!), but it doesn't change the commonality of characteristics and attributes inherent in either the positions, the players or both. For me, the standard alpha-numeric designation beckons with simplicity .
------------------------
UcMiami....3 games doesn't a season make. "Battling" Fowles and other elite bigs will take its toll over time, on offensive production, stamina/durability, and a greater likelihood of injury....with an adverse effect on career longevity. The Storm needs Kiah Stokes....they'd be an immediate contender.

you disagree with class and style.

In part why I love hoop-- you mention about Stokes. that might have been the better pick for Seattle than KML. truly odd. But fun to think about.

 

[islandgurl]

I'm not sure if chiding Geno is permissible here , but here goes. I'd be interested in reactions, either way.

A reasonable shot at another NC in 2016, albeit not with the dominance of our recent run, would have been possible had Geno been the visionary he usually is. I think all the hype led Geno towards a singular goal of riding the Big Three to a monster undefeated season and a record 4th straight NC, needlessly sacrificing, to a sufficient degree, the year ahead.

Geno should have been more aware that post-Stewie/Mo/Tuck, UConn would be less competitive without a legitimate interior starter taller than Napheesa at 6'1", early in the season against ranked OOC teams with bigs....(among other missteps).

Our lone big, Natalie Butler, had all of 12 mpg in 27 games under Geno's tutelage, mostly mopping up against outmatched teams, worse yet, against their second-stringers. She atrophied on the bench instead of being on-court, helping make the blow outs happen. So many such opportunities were wasted, together with the confidence and mental toughness playing with the starters brings. NB wasn't prepped to her potential, and is more a puzzle today; whatever the reason, it falls on Geno .

NB isn't one of our Best 5 or Readiest 5 who should start this November...but NB as a legitimate starter didn't now need to be wishful thinking, save for Geno's oversight. But as reality would have it, she is our default if unready 5th starter. Other teams' bigs will likely own her, hopefully only until weak AAC conference play.

I think UConn will still be a Top 10 team for 2016, and might contend as deep as the EE. Should Kyla prove to be a worthy recruit (more than the other 2), or if Nat this time around is prepped and earns her playing stripes by tournament time, perhaps a FF .

 

[Sonny44]

Well it's not like he didn't try.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm not sure if chiding Geno is permissible here , but here goes. I'd be interested in reactions, either way.

A reasonable shot at another NC in 2016, albeit not with the dominance of our recent run, would have been possible had Geno been the visionary he usually is. I think all the hype led Geno towards a singular goal of riding the Big Three to a monster undefeated season and a record 4th straight NC, needlessly sacrificing, to a sufficient degree, the year ahead.

Geno should have been more aware that post-Stewie/Mo/Tuck, UConn would be less competitive without a legitimate interior starter taller than Napheesa at 6'1", early in the season against ranked OOC teams with bigs....(among other missteps).

Our lone big, Natalie Butler, had all of 12 mpg in 27 games under Geno's tutelage, mostly mopping up against outmatched teams, worse yet, against their second-stringers. She atrophied on the bench instead of being on-court, helping make the blow outs happen. So many such opportunities were wasted, together with the confidence and mental toughness playing with the starters brings. NB wasn't prepped to her potential, and is more a puzzle today; whatever the reason, it falls on Geno .

NB isn't one of our Best 5 or Readiest 5 who should start this November...but NB as a legitimate starter didn't now need to be wishful thinking, save for Geno's oversight. But as reality would have it, she is our default if unready 5th starter. Other teams' bigs will likely own her, hopefully only until weak AAC conference play.

I think UConn will still be a Top 10 team for 2016, and might contend as deep as the EE. Should Kyla prove to be a worthy recruit (more than the other 2), or if Nat this time around is prepped and earns her playing stripes by tournament time, perhaps a FF .

Nah- I don't agree.

I don't think how you make your team better is to play someone that is worse. Plus- why punish the better players by reducing their minutes? Wasn't it great that Collier got minutes so she shined in the finals? And who is to say we aren't going to win a title next year anyways? You should have been on here the last few years in which there was some talk that Stewart should be more of a sf. Yet didn't we see her defend Texas and Oregon centers in the low post this year? Plus haven't we heard for the past two years how pounding UCONN inside was the answer? There was also talk back then wanting Stewart on the outside on offense - yet didn't we see her have a devastating low post game such as vs Md?

**If Natalie is good enough- and she has had two years of practice - imo there is no reason she can't bloom this year. We see freshmen grow into "weapons" or "very very good players" right before our eyes over the course of the season. SO this past year shouldn't affect her for this year. In other words if a freshman can get a lot better why can't Natalie? In practices if she isn't dominating do we really want her out there? I would suspect that if she was dominating in practices Geno would play her.

As you can tell- I'm under the belief that as a general rule size gets overrated. Though this year we will get beat by it from time to time. Even if we played Butler more- if she isn't that good then no matter how many minutes we gave her, imo it wouldn't matter. This year is a new year with different synergies. She could get better individually but I don't think the team will. I'm under the belief that you play your best and I'd like to think recruiting - Geno tells all that he will play his best regardless of position.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm not sure if chiding Geno is permissible here , but here goes. I'd be interested in reactions, either way.

A reasonable shot at another NC in 2016, albeit not with the dominance of our recent run, would have been possible had Geno been the visionary he usually is. I think all the hype led Geno towards a singular goal of riding the Big Three to a monster undefeated season and a record 4th straight NC, needlessly sacrificing, to a sufficient degree, the year ahead.

Geno should have been more aware that post-Stewie/Mo/Tuck, UConn would be less competitive without a legitimate interior starter taller than Napheesa at 6'1", early in the season against ranked OOC teams with bigs....(among other missteps).

Our lone big, Natalie Butler, had all of 12 mpg in 27 games under Geno's tutelage, mostly mopping up against outmatched teams, worse yet, against their second-stringers. She atrophied on the bench instead of being on-court, helping make the blow outs happen. So many such opportunities were wasted, together with the confidence and mental toughness playing with the starters brings. NB wasn't prepped to her potential, and is more a puzzle today; whatever the reason, it falls on Geno .

NB isn't one of our Best 5 or Readiest 5 who should start this November...but NB as a legitimate starter didn't now need to be wishful thinking, save for Geno's oversight. But as reality would have it, she is our default if unready 5th starter. Other teams' bigs will likely own her, hopefully only until weak AAC conference play.

I think UConn will still be a Top 10 team for 2016, and might contend as deep as the EE. Should Kyla prove to be a worthy recruit (more than the other 2), or if Nat this time around is prepped and earns her playing stripes by tournament time, perhaps a FF .

Nah- I don't agree.

I don't think how you make your team better is to play someone that is worse. Plus- why punish the better players by reducing their minutes? Wasn't it great that Collier got minutes so she shined in the finals? And who is to say we aren't going to win a title next year anyways? You should have been on here the last few years in which there was some talk that Stewart should be more of a sf. Yet didn't we see her defend Texas and Oregon centers in the low post this year? Plus haven't we heard for the past two years how pounding UCONN inside was the answer? There was also talk back then wanting Stewart on the outside on offense - yet didn't we see her have a devastating low post game such as vs Md?

**If Natalie is good enough- and she has had two years of practice - imo there is no reason she can't bloom this year. We see freshmen grow into "weapons" or "very very good players" right before our eyes over the course of the season. SO this past year shouldn't affect her for this year. In other words if a freshman can get a lot better why can't Natalie? In practices if she isn't dominating do we really want her out there? I would suspect that if she was dominating in practices Geno would play her.

As you can tell- I'm under the belief that as a general rule size gets overrated. Though this year we will get beat by it from time to time. Even if we played Butler more- if she isn't that good then no matter how many minutes we gave her, imo it wouldn't matter. This year is a new year with different synergies. She could get better individually if she got more minutes last year but I don't think the team will this year just because she got more minutes last year. Different synergies. I'm under the belief that you play your best and I'd like to think recruiting - Geno tells all that he will play his best regardless of position.

 

[meyers7]

meyers7....I like some of Elton John's music, this one I don't recall listening to, so I turned to my time traveler to the past, my Gramps....he says this is a song with lyrics about a 6'3" Jamaican red light pro plying her trade in the Caribbean. I'm fairly tall, just shy of 6'0", but I'm not Jamaican, my long ago ancestors were from the islands of Hawaii....in the Pacific Ocean. As for the tie-in to a lady-for-sale, intended or otherwise....you might well be surprised ;-) . I do appreciate you trying to connect me to my origins, even if you got the wrong islands, in the wrong pond.

Well there are not that many Island Girl songs out there.

 

[UcMiami]

I'm not sure if chiding Geno is permissible here , but here goes. I'd be interested in reactions, either way.

A reasonable shot at another NC in 2016, albeit not with the dominance of our recent run, would have been possible had Geno been the visionary he usually is. I think all the hype led Geno towards a singular goal of riding the Big Three to a monster undefeated season and a record 4th straight NC, needlessly sacrificing, to a sufficient degree, the year ahead.

Geno should have been more aware that post-Stewie/Mo/Tuck, UConn would be less competitive without a legitimate interior starter taller than Napheesa at 6'1", early in the season against ranked OOC teams with bigs....(among other missteps).

Our lone big, Natalie Butler, had all of 12 mpg in 27 games under Geno's tutelage, mostly mopping up against outmatched teams, worse yet, against their second-stringers. She atrophied on the bench instead of being on-court, helping make the blow outs happen. So many such opportunities were wasted, together with the confidence and mental toughness playing with the starters brings. NB wasn't prepped to her potential, and is more a puzzle today; whatever the reason, it falls on Geno .

NB isn't one of our Best 5 or Readiest 5 who should start this November...but NB as a legitimate starter didn't now need to be wishful thinking, save for Geno's oversight. But as reality would have it, she is our default if unready 5th starter. Other teams' bigs will likely own her, hopefully only until weak AAC conference play.

I think UConn will still be a Top 10 team for 2016, and might contend as deep as the EE. Should Kyla prove to be a worthy recruit (more than the other 2), or if Nat this time around is prepped and earns her playing stripes by tournament time, perhaps a FF .

I think Geno was very aware of the post Stewart (and Stokes, and Stef) situation and has certainly been trying to recruit post players that fit uconn's 'profile' but it has been a really dry spell for NE post players - Stewart is probably the last NY/NJ high quality post player, and the ones from the south, TX, and West coast have chosen other schools - you can't just go out and 'draft' players. Boykin transferring out this last year was a blow to the post as well.

There is a reason the Uconn has accepted three transfers in the last three years and there is a reason they are all post players!

On Butler - I wrote this sort of thing quite a while ago - I am sure in the month of practice before the season began, the coaches were working on offensive sets and defensive sets to play to Natalie's strengths and to cover her weakness, but then she got injured and was out for the last ten days of practice and for most of the first two months of the season, and the team moved on from all of those sets because Natalie was unique in terms of the team and without her playing none of them made sense. On defense they worked on and perfected the 'switch on everything' defense, and on offense they went away from the power low post game and perfected the slashing, multiple post up player offense where no one was ever anchored in the paint, but was constantly switching in and out to the arc. By the time Natalie got back she also had to work herself back into game shape and hadn't developed the game chemistry with the rest of the team. She had been 'left behind' and by late December it was two months since the team had worked on any of the sets that involved her unique skills - you could see that no one really knew what to do or where to move when she was on the court - the offense looked bad and the defense looked bad. It wasn't anyone's fault and certainly not Natalie's but it was a situation not dissimilar to Fowles showing up in MN in mid-season - they didn't know how to play with her, but they knew they really needed her for the playoffs so they worked hard on it and it finally gelled by the end of the championship run. Unfortunately for Natalie, Uconn didn't really need her last year, and integrating her back into the team was less important than perfecting everything else they were already doing - the age/experience between college and seasoned pros was also a huge factor with the ability and familiarity of players playing in different systems every year between WNBA and overseas.
I expect a very different looking Natalie this coming year (as long as she remains healthy) because the team will develop around her skill set and the coaches will integrate that into the core capabilities of the team - everyone will comment on how great an improvement she has made in her game, but the reality will be that the improvement will be with how she is integrated into the team and the systems on offense and defense that are designed around her.

We have seen the same sort of issue with other players like Kiah Stokes - who had nagging injuries her first two years in Storrs and struggled mightily because when she did get on the floor she was replacing a player (Stef) who was completely different than her. Her last two years she was much more productive primarily because she was healthy from the beginning and the sets run when she was on the floor matched her skills. Banks also struggled with injury her sophomore year and when she returned couldn't get back in the flow because her teammates had forgotten how to play with her and to her strengths.

 

[CocoHusky]

I think Geno was very aware of the post Stewart (and Stokes, and Stef) situation and has certainly been trying to recruit post players that fit uconn's 'profile' but it has been a really dry spell for NE post players - Stewart is probably the last NY/NJ high quality post player, and the ones from the south, TX, and West coast have chosen other schools - you can't just go out and 'draft' players. Boykin transferring out this last year was a blow to the post as well.

There is a reason the Uconn has accepted three transfers in the last three years and there is a reason they are all post players!

On Butler - I wrote this sort of thing quite a while ago - I am sure in the month of practice before the season began, the coaches were working on offensive sets and defensive sets to play to Natalie's strengths and to cover her weakness, but then she got injured and was out for the last ten days of practice and for most of the first two months of the season, and the team moved on from all of those sets because Natalie was unique in terms of the team and without her playing none of them made sense. On defense they worked on and perfected the 'switch on everything' defense, and on offense they went away from the power low post game and perfected the slashing, multiple post up player offense where no one was ever anchored in the paint, but was constantly switching in and out to the arc. By the time Natalie got back she also had to work herself back into game shape and hadn't developed the game chemistry with the rest of the team. She had been 'left behind' and by late December it was two months since the team had worked on any of the sets that involved her unique skills - you could see that no one really knew what to do or where to move when she was on the court - the offense looked bad and the defense looked bad. It wasn't anyone's fault and certainly not Natalie's but it was a situation not dissimilar to Fowles showing up in MN in mid-season - they didn't know how to play with her, but they knew they really needed her for the playoffs so they worked hard on it and it finally gelled by the end of the championship run. Unfortunately for Natalie, Uconn didn't really need her last year, and integrating her back into the team was less important than perfecting everything else they were already doing - the age/experience between college and seasoned pros was also a huge factor with the ability and familiarity of players playing in different systems every year between WNBA and overseas.
I expect a very different looking Natalie this coming year (as long as she remains healthy) because the team will develop around her skill set and the coaches will integrate that into the core capabilities of the team - everyone will comment on how great an improvement she has made in her game, but the reality will be that the improvement will be with how she is integrated into the team and the systems on offense and defense that are designed around her.

We have seen the same sort of issue with other players like Kiah Stokes - who had nagging injuries her first two years in Storrs and struggled mightily because when she did get on the floor she was replacing a player (Stef) who was completely different than her. Her last two years she was much more productive primarily because she was healthy from the beginning and the sets run when she was on the floor matched her skills. Banks also struggled with injury her sophomore year and when she returned couldn't get back in the flow because her teammates had forgotten how to play with her and to her strengths.

UC Impeccable analysis. The specific Natalie strengths I expect the staff to include in the offense is the strong outlet pass to trigger the break, mid range jumper and high on ball screens. On defense Natalie is very good at making herself big at the rim so defender has to finish over her, expect to almost pre-rotate to the rim to make a one man wall. If she needs to improve on one are is getting better feet.

 

[victor64]

Coco answered some but I would still like Uc to address the following

Questions because I think she is really important next year.

Is Butler a good enough passer to do Dolson-like stuff at the high post?
Can she defend the basket well enough?
It seemed to me that last year, even in the multitude of blowouts that she was late getting into games. Makes me wonder if the staff lost confidence in her.
Can she defend the perimeter? Run the break? Exclusively and only a 5? Does she need to in order to be effective?

I love your optimism but the lack of playing time has me wondering.

 

[UcMiami]

Uc,

Questions because I think she is really important next year.

Is Butler a good enough passer to do Dolson-like stuff at the high post?
Can she defend the basket well enough?
It seemed to me that last year, even in the multitude of blowouts that she was late getting into games. Makes me wonder if the staff lost confidence in her.
Can she defend the perimeter? Run the break? Exclusively and only a 5? Does she need to in order to be effective?

I love your optimism but the lack of playing time has me wondering.

I think she is a good passer, not as good as Stef, but can be effective in the high post with folks cutting off her.
I think everyone on the team was so well integrated into the offense and defense that was being played for the first two months that it was more important to work Chong, Collier and Ekmark within that offense/defense so they tended to get the earlier substitutions. As soon as Natalie entered the game it was 'all change' - on defense every screen with her involved required 'hedge and recover' something that the team almost never did when she wasn't on the floor - on offense it was all about power post (high and low) again something that wasn't being run when she wasn't playing. If you think about it - she was 'replacing' either Stewart or Tuck in an offense that was design with their three point capabilities and slashing strengths, and a defense design around their skill defending in space out to the three point line. Just a completely different system. Go back three years and have Natalie come in to spell Dolson and it would be a much more seamless transition for the rest of the team - big body screens at the free throw line, and power post play, and hedged screens on defense. Again, I think they started practice working on those concepts, but dropped them out while she was injured.

She actually moves up and down court pretty well for a big, but she does not have the foot speed to defend on the perimeter - again very similar to Stef. Yes, exclusively a 5 - doubt we every see her playing much at either end further than 15' from the basket.

If you want to see what offense and defense with Natalie playing significant minutes would be like, check out the games from Dolson's junior and senior years. (and if you want to see a comparison to what was happening last year - watch what happens at both ends in those games when Stokes replaces Stef (not pretty!), Kiah had no clue how to play Stef's game and the team wasn't ready to adjust for her skills.

 

[victor64]

Thanks UC

If they switched everything with Katie Lou last year, then Natalie is the only one coming back that they have to hedge with. As I think about what you said, they may have to have more than one style next year. They could really put a good "small" ball team on the floor and play 5 out. (CD, Collier, KLS, Nourse, Williams).

With only one pure 5 on the roster, it will be interesting to see how they handle the rotation.

 

[islandgurl]

Well there are not that many Island Girl songs out there.

Brief personals....I created this expansive world I live in where I often have more tasks and obligations than there are hours in a day. I get overwhelmed from time to time, I typically don't get much more than 4 - 5 hours of sleep, wherein I crash every few weeks or so , I have to put my social life on hold all too often....etc, etc. In fact, I have a 16 yo niece who is a UConn fan helping me out with this site. But if don't reply to posts quickly enough, please understand.
----------------------


I know many here are a little older than me, but I think a few might like this song, or at least not hate it ....it's called Jowenna (My Sweet Hawaiian Girl) by Fiji....4:01, click on "show more" for lyrics.


Some might recognize this favorite classic, Sweet Leilani, 2:58.

 

[islandgurl]

Nah- I don't agree.

I don't think how you make your team better is to play someone that is worse. Plus- why punish the better players by reducing their minutes? Wasn't it great that Collier got minutes so she shined in the finals? And who is to say we aren't going to win a title next year anyways? You should have been on here the last few years in which there was some talk that Stewart should be more of a sf. Yet didn't we see her defend Texas and Oregon centers in the low post this year? Plus haven't we heard for the past two years how pounding UCONN inside was the answer? There was also talk back then wanting Stewart on the outside on offense - yet didn't we see her have a devastating low post game such as vs Md?

**If Natalie is good enough- and she has had two years of practice - imo there is no reason she can't bloom this year. We see freshmen grow into "weapons" or "very very good players" right before our eyes over the course of the season. SO this past year shouldn't affect her for this year. In other words if a freshman can get a lot better why can't Natalie? In practices if she isn't dominating do we really want her out there? I would suspect that if she was dominating in practices Geno would play her.

As you can tell- I'm under the belief that as a general rule size gets overrated. Though this year we will get beat by it from time to time. Even if we played Butler more- if she isn't that good then no matter how many minutes we gave her, imo it wouldn't matter. This year is a new year with different synergies. She could get better individually if she got more minutes last year but I don't think the team will this year just because she got more minutes last year. Different synergies. I'm under the belief that you play your best and I'd like to think recruiting - Geno tells all that he will play his best regardless of position.

hoophuskee - Thanks for sharing your thoughts....your perspective certainly differs from mine. Some in the membership may support your various arguments, in whole or in part, while others may differ from both yours and mine. I'll briefly address the essence of your overall narrative, but strictly against the issues I narrowly defined....everything else is extraneous.

As great a coach as Geno is, he isn't infallible, nor beyond criticism. Permit me to point out that in the entirety of your response, you declined to place blame of any kind on Geno, which leaves the preponderance of blame on NB. There is a clear inadequacy of fairness here . I'll explain briefly.

Everything (reasonable) that transpires under his watch---all the passes and the fails---is Geno's responsibility. He accepted NB, if she didn't cut it, that's on Geno, keeping in mind she was a relatively accomplished transferee, not a touted but untested high school recruit.

(To illustrate that many decisions have varying degrees of collateral damage, or unintended consequences, accepting NB came with the risk that other big recruits may pass on UConn, which had a 2-year period without such a recruit. Coincidence? Perhaps).

Furthermore, Geno knows he needs to manage a rolling 100% player turnover rate every 4 years. The current season is important....next season and succeeding ones will come soon enough and be just as important. When you have a Big Three of seniors, in particular, finding/developing their replacements is as imperative as letting them bask in the glory of raining terror on the opposition with 40-point margins of victory. Geno didn't find the right balance this year.

You mentioned that "as a general rule size gets overrated". As a general rule, I'd rather have a good/decent 6'5" center with bulk than not .

I'd even settle for a Big East Rookie of the Year. NB had a strong foundation to begin with, but which clearly hasn't been built upon. I can't imagine what NB did to so badly regress, from winning accolades as Freshman of the Year in a strong basketball conference (certainly much tougher than the AAC), to a 12 mpg mopper-upper under Geno's guidance. I obviously don't know exactly why, but I certainly wouldn't let Geno off the hook .

 

[baggerbob]

hoophuskee - Thanks for sharing your thoughts....your perspective certainly differs from mine. Some in the membership may support your various arguments, in whole or in part, while others may differ from both yours and mine. I'll briefly address the essence of your overall narrative, but strictly against the issues I narrowly defined....everything else is extraneous.

As great a coach as Geno is, he isn't infallible, nor beyond criticism. Permit me to point out that in the entirety of your response, you declined to place blame of any kind on Geno, which leaves the preponderance of blame on NB. There is a clear inadequacy of fairness here . I'll explain briefly.

Everything (reasonable) that transpires under his watch---all the passes and the fails---is Geno's responsibility. He accepted NB, if she didn't cut it, that's on Geno, keeping in mind she was a relatively accomplished transferee, not a touted but untested high school recruit.

(To illustrate that many decisions have varying degrees of collateral damage, or unintended consequences, accepting NB came with the risk that other big recruits may pass on UConn, which had a 2-year period without such a recruit. Coincidence? Perhaps).

Furthermore, Geno knows he needs to manage a rolling 100% player turnover rate every 4 years. The current season is important....next season and succeeding ones will come soon enough and be just as important. When you have a Big Three of seniors, in particular, finding/developing their replacements is as imperative as letting them bask in the glory of raining terror on the opposition with 40-point margins of victory. Geno didn't find the right balance this year.

You mentioned that "as a general rule size gets overrated". As a general rule, I'd rather have a good/decent 6'5" center with bulk than not .

I'd even settle for a Big East Rookie of the Year. NB had a strong foundation to begin with, but which clearly hasn't been built upon. I can't imagine what NB did to so badly regress, from winning accolades as Freshman of the Year in a strong basketball conference (certainly much tougher than the AAC), to a 12 mpg mopper-upper under Geno's guidance. I obviously don't know exactly why, but I certainly wouldn't let Geno off the hook .

Geno mentioned in one of the shows on SNY, that the one thing, he was afraid of was screwing up the run for the 4 in a row. Natalie's injury, and all the time it took for her to get healthy, made it impossible for Geno to do anything else. By the time she came back the rotations had been set, the players were used to the new offense, and defense sets, no need to change at that point. You don't jeopardize everything Stewie. Moriah, and Morgan worked for to incorporate Natalie into the rotation.

 

[Kibitzer]

Geno mentioned in one of the shows on SNY, that the one thing, he was afraid of was screwing up the run for the 4 in a row. Natalie's injury, and all the time it took for her to get healthy, made it impossible for Geno to do anything else.

The circumstances you cited are valid. To rephrase an old adage: "If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it."

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I really believe Natalie's injury and the timing of it ruined her whole season!
From all reports from coaches & players was how good Natalie looked offensively & defensively, conditioning rounding her body into great shape through weight loss, her hustling up & down the court.
She worked tremendously hard in her RS year.
Then boom, the thumb injury for approximately 3 months after the surgery put her back on square one and she never recovered! There is not a worse time for an injury (besides one in February ending your season), to destroy everything a player does off-season into pre!
I believe she'll work hard again this off season and get back to where she was pre-injury and show her real talent!

 

[hoophuskee]

hoophuskee - Thanks for sharing your thoughts....your perspective certainly differs from mine. Some in the membership may support your various arguments, in whole or in part, while others may differ from both yours and mine. I'll briefly address the essence of your overall narrative, but strictly against the issues I narrowly defined....everything else is extraneous.

As great a coach as Geno is, he isn't infallible, nor beyond criticism. Permit me to point out that in the entirety of your response, you declined to place blame of any kind on Geno, which leaves the preponderance of blame on NB. There is a clear inadequacy of fairness here . I'll explain briefly.

Everything (reasonable) that transpires under his watch---all the passes and the fails---is Geno's responsibility. He accepted NB, if she didn't cut it, that's on Geno, keeping in mind she was a relatively accomplished transferee, not a touted but untested high school recruit.

(To illustrate that many decisions have varying degrees of collateral damage, or unintended consequences, accepting NB came with the risk that other big recruits may pass on UConn, which had a 2-year period without such a recruit. Coincidence? Perhaps).

Furthermore, Geno knows he needs to manage a rolling 100% player turnover rate every 4 years. The current season is important....next season and succeeding ones will come soon enough and be just as important. When you have a Big Three of seniors, in particular, finding/developing their replacements is as imperative as letting them bask in the glory of raining terror on the opposition with 40-point margins of victory. Geno didn't find the right balance this year.

You mentioned that "as a general rule size gets overrated". As a general rule, I'd rather have a good/decent 6'5" center with bulk than not .

I'd even settle for a Big East Rookie of the Year. NB had a strong foundation to begin with, but which clearly hasn't been built upon. I can't imagine what NB did to so badly regress, from winning accolades as Freshman of the Year in a strong basketball conference (certainly much tougher than the AAC), to a 12 mpg mopper-upper under Geno's guidance. I obviously don't know exactly why, but I certainly wouldn't let Geno off the hook .

I have to say -- you disagree with such style. A pleasure to go back and forth.

You're right- I do place no blame because I see no blame that needs to be placed. I don't agree with the philosophy that a coach fails if some fo his recruits don't pan out. the obligation should be more to the team. And for that I believe it is right to play the best players. that imo is most fair in addition to giving the team not only the best chance to win (while being the most fair_ but also perpetuates great - consistent recruiting especially of the star players.

When I speak of "most fair" -- I'm also talking about the kids like KLS and Collier and Gabby for example. For example -- can't we agree that KLS and Napheesa need to get tougher? And KLS needs to be more aggressive? So for 2016-2017 wouldn't it also help them to play more last year? they are not going to be power players this upcoming year regardless but doesn't it help them to learn to keep playing? What about Geno's "obligation and sense of fairness" to them?

Sure you could blame Gneo this year of whatever because most likely he won't win a title-- but if Natalie comes to play this year -- and dominate practices like she should thus gets minutes-- it would mean she had BOTH deserved the minutes this year and imo when you add a good player to your team - usually you have better chance of winning too (unless they affect synergy- BOTH on offense and defense). I think patience is best virtue here. Let's see what Natalie brings THIS YEAR.

I'm not ready to write her off. And as for blame---- he Geno has won 4 straight titles. I think UCONN is ranked in the top 5 this upcoming year then imo we are among the top two looking out into the future. Boykin left him- so one year we aren't in the top two and all the wins we've accumulated and championships- how much time do I want put "on blame" when I prefer better basketball players over size? I agree we need some bulk and this year without MB we don't have it-- BUT SHE HAS HER CHANCE THIS YEAR. I am excited to see what she can bring.

But imo the other players also deserved minutes and them playing together last year for as many minutes as they did (KLS/Collier/Gabby/Nurse) also helps for this year. PLUS imo it helps in recruiting. For example Meg Walker must know if she commits to UCONN - if the post play is weak - she'll still have an opportunity to get big minutes because Geno won't be afraid to play small.